F
fhansen
Guest
Well, the Catechism teaches that the ten commandments specify grave matter and the Church has also traditionally enumerated at least 7 deadly sins as well.
- Status
B
Bookcat
Guest
Yes the Ten Commandments certainly specify grave matter --as can the 7 deadly sins.
2072 Since they express man’s fundamental duties towards God and towards his neighbor, the Ten Commandments reveal, in their primordial content, grave obligations. They are fundamentally immutable, and they oblige always and everywhere. No one can dispense from them. The Ten Commandments are engraved by God in the human heart.
However it is important to note that under the Ten Commandments also fall many venial matters
2073 Obedience to the Commandments also implies obligations in matter which is, in itself, light. Thus abusive language is forbidden by the fifth commandment, but would be a grave offense only as a result of circumstances or the offender’s intention.
scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2.htm
and it is important to note that:
The Seven Deadly sins or perhaps better Capital sins – can yes involve grave matter for mortal sins. (and of course there are many things that are grave matter…not just seven…I note for some readers)
But that does not mean that they (or sins that fall in those categories) are necessarily grave matter. Many admit rather of parvity of matter (light matter).
And yes I am referring to the matter involved – not just to say a lack of full knowledge or deliberate consent for mortal sin --but to a light matter for venial sin.
The term “deadly” or “capital” --often confuses persons.
Such is simply not the case that deadly sins/capital sins = grave matter .
For example --the chief of them is Pride. Pride yes can be grave matter --like a person says I do not need God. But often in the life of say a Christian it is venial matter (sinning in pride in other ways…)
Anger can be grave matter – like for example (to give an extreme one to make the point) --when one is deliberately angry -seeking to say seriously harm someone.
But often it can be venial in life.
or take gluttony – individual acts of such by way of intemperance are often venial in nature.
Though for example one can have grave matter --for example getting drunk where one looses ones reason…etc.
So no it is not a simple: Deadly sins -Capital sins = grave matter.
They are called Capital cause they are the “head” capitus of many other sins that they engender…(and deadly cause yes the seven can be deadly…)
But the term used more so today is capital sins.
Catechism:
1866 Vices can be classified according to the virtues they oppose, or also be linked to the capital sins which Christian experience has distinguished, following St. John Cassian and St. Gregory the Great. They are called “capital” because they engender other sins, other vices. They are pride, avarice, envy, wrath, lust, gluttony, and sloth or acedia.
scborromeo.org/ccc/ccc_toc.htm
- What are vices?
Vices are the opposite of virtues. They are perverse habits which darken the conscience and incline one to evil. The vices can be linked to the seven, so-called, capital sins which are: pride, avarice, envy, anger, lust, gluttony, and sloth or acedia.
vatican.va/archive/compendium_ccc/documents/archive_2005_compendium-ccc_en.html
Of course sins like fornication, lusting after some woman, adultery etc do not admit of parvity of matter
J
JRKH
Guest
Correct - the Catechism states that grave matter is specified by the ten commandments - and by that reckoning - swiping an apple is just as mortal as swiping a car.
Yet - the catechism muddies the waters by saying - in the same paragraph - that,
“The gravity of sins is more or less great…”
This places qualifiers which many will say means that swiping a car is “grave” and mortal, but swiping an apple would not qualify as grave matter…Yet this is not what the text says.
Is says the gravity is more or less…which means that it remains grave and therefore meets the first qualification for mortal sin.
In the section on venial sin the term “serious” is used in describing the matter.
The term “grave” is not used in connection with any “venial matter”.
This lack of “connecting the dots” is the problem I have with the catechism on this subject.
Peace
James
B
Bookcat
Guest
see my post above forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=10466224&postcount=22
B
Bookcat
Guest
grave =serious =mortal
Synonyms.
They are all used to mean the same sin in the Church.
They just get used as a variety of word choice.
One will yes find the term “grave” in reference to venial sin --as is when it is grave matter (or serious --means the same matter) --but one lacks full knowledge or deliberate consent. And thus it is a venial sin.
F
fhansen
Guest
IMO the categorization of sin is meant to give us guidelines and principles: there are sins, originating from attitudes or dispositions of the heart, that lead to death, that constitute a turning away from God/love. And the most serious of such sins we pretty well know when we see them. But none of us can determine with absolute certainty when a person has so completely severed communion with God and His grace to the point that they deserve hell. This is because, as scripture tells us, man judges by appearances (we have no choice in the matter), while God judges by the heart.
B
Bookcat
Guest
grave =serious =mortal
Synonyms.
They are all used to mean the same sin in the Church.
They just get used as a variety of word choice.
One will find the term “grave” in reference to venial sin in Church documents --as is when it is grave matter (or serious --means the same matter) --but when one lacks full knowledge or deliberate consent. And thus it is a venial sin.
J
JRKH
Guest
This is not apparent from the way that the catechism is written…and given the number of threads asking questions about mortal-v-venial sin it seems that many would prefer something more clearly stated.
I’m not saying that you are wrong here…just commenting…sort of playing devils advocate to see what answers pop up and if they help me.
Understood…but this is not a discussion of how we judge another, but about objective differences…At least that is where I am at. I have no desire to judge another person’s heart.
Peace
James
J
JRKH
Guest
Sorry BC, but I see “variety” as a poor reason to use multiple terms, synonyms or not.
The fact is that the word “serious” is used nowhere in the description of mortal sin. The term “grave” or “gravity” is used and specifically tied to the ten commandments.
The term "serious is used in the description of venial sin - and no mention of the ten commandments is made. instead “serious” is referenced to “moral law”. Grave is left out of the discussion of venial sin except as it relates to knowledge and consent.
Do you begin to see what I am talking about?
Mortal sin = grave matter = Ten Commandments.
Venial sin = “less serious”(??) matter = “moral law”.
There is simply no real interconnectedness here.
To me - it is not surprising that there is so much confusion…
Yes I started to mention this…but couldn’t figure out how to say it right. The use of the term grave in this instance - again pointing to something different than serious - is used simply as a qualifier for the matter of knowledge and consent as these 2 apply to venial sin.
Peace
James
F
fhansen
Guest
Yes, but God judges by the heart simply because He knows the heart. If we could have the same knowledge as He, then presumably we could also know a persons fate. So while, in principle, a person who commits a sin “whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent” deserves hell, I have no way of knowing the degree of deliberateness or knowledge the person possessed. I have no way of knowing any mitigating circumstances that may have reduced or modified or influenced his/her “knowing deliberateness” and therefore their culpability. All I know is that certain acts committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent should merit spiritual excommunication with God (regardless of whether or not man may have deemed physical excommunication appropriate) and ultimately eternal damnation. I would surmise, based on other knowledge we have by our faith, such as our knowledge of God’s mercy and love, that this knowledge and deliberate consent would constitute an actual conscious hatred for and rejection of God.
Is a person who misses Mass on Sunday because they were traveling and tried and failed but perhaps could’ve tried harder to find a Church in the area deserving of hell? Well, did their failure consist of a deliberate, knowledgeable rejection of and turning away from God? More than likely such a person wouldn’t be bothering much with Church to begin with; long-term patterns are probably in evidence in such cases.
In any case, if God is such that He’s waiting to see if He can get us on a “mortal sin technicality”, as some seem to fear, after living a pretty much obedient life, He wouldn’t qualify for the role of God anyway. But now maybe I’m playing devil’s advocate?
B
Bookcat
Guest
It is not a poor reason. It is what has historically been used over time. And continues to be used. One can say the same thing of other terms.
The terms “mortal sin” “serious sin” and “grave sin” have been used down through the years to mean the same thing. They are just different ways to say it.
B
Bookcat
Guest
Mortal sin — involves grave matter.
Venial sin — involves “matter that is less serious” meaning – “less serious than serious matter/grave matter” (for grave matter was what was just discussed) or it involves “grave matter” but without full knowledge or without deliberate consent.
B
Bookcat
Guest
Compendium issued by Pope Benedict XVI
1874
One commits a mortal sin when there are simultaneously present: grave matter, full knowledge, and deliberate consent. This sin destroys charity in us, deprives us of sanctifying grace, and, if unrepented, leads us to the eternal death of hell. It can be forgiven in the ordinary way by means of the sacraments of Baptism and of Penance or Reconciliation.
1875
One commits a venial sin, which is essentially different from a mortal sin, when the matter involved is less serious or, even if it is grave, when full knowledge or complete consent are absent. Venial sin does not break the covenant with God but it weakens charity and manifests a disordered affection for created goods. It impedes the progress of a soul in the exercise of the virtues and in the practice of moral good. It merits temporal punishment which purifies.
vatican.va/archive/compendium_ccc/documents/archive_2005_compendium-ccc_en.html
- When does one commit a mortal sin?
1874
One commits a mortal sin when there are simultaneously present: grave matter, full knowledge, and deliberate consent. This sin destroys charity in us, deprives us of sanctifying grace, and, if unrepented, leads us to the eternal death of hell. It can be forgiven in the ordinary way by means of the sacraments of Baptism and of Penance or Reconciliation.
- When does one commit a venial sin?
1875
One commits a venial sin, which is essentially different from a mortal sin, when the matter involved is less serious or, even if it is grave, when full knowledge or complete consent are absent. Venial sin does not break the covenant with God but it weakens charity and manifests a disordered affection for created goods. It impedes the progress of a soul in the exercise of the virtues and in the practice of moral good. It merits temporal punishment which purifies.
vatican.va/archive/compendium_ccc/documents/archive_2005_compendium-ccc_en.html
B
Bookcat
Guest
Mortal Sin = Grave sin= Serious sin (both in terms of the “nature” of the action/omission in itself (murder is a mortal sin/grave sin/serious sin) and in terms of the “committing and thus requirement to confess” of the personal sin)
A Few Examples:
CCC1385: “Anyone conscious of a grave sin must receive the sacrament of Reconciliation before coming to communion.”
"304. Which sins must be confessed?
1456
All grave sins not yet confessed, which a careful examination of conscience brings to mind, must be brought to the sacrament of Penance. The confession of serious sins is the only ordinary way to obtain forgiveness."
(note in the last example those exact terms are used to denote the same thing (mortal sin) -in the very same paragraph)
- What is required to receive Holy Communion?
1415
To receive Holy Communion one must be fully incorporated into the Catholic Church and be in the state of grace, that is, not conscious of being in** mortal sin**. Anyone who is conscious of having committed a grave sin must first receive the sacrament of Reconciliation before going to Communion.
From: The Compendium of the Catechism issued by Pope Benedict XVI
“However, it must be remembered that the church, guided by faith in this great sacrament, teaches that no Christian who is conscious of** grave sin** can receive the eucharist before having obtained God’s forgiveness.”
Pope John Paul II Reconciliatio et Paenitentia 17
In MISERICORDIA DEI he also noted:
“Individual and integral confession and absolution are the sole ordinary means by which the faithful, conscious of grave sin, are reconciled with God and the Church; only physical or moral impossibility excuses from such confession, in which case reconciliation can be obtained in other ways”
and
Since “the faithful are obliged to confess, according to kind and number, **all grave sins **committed after Baptism of which they are conscious after careful examination and which have not yet been directly remitted by the Church’s power of the keys
And in a speech from Pope John Paul II
“The sacrament of Penance is meant to take away personal sins committed after Baptism: first of all mortal sins, then venial. If the penitent has committed more than one mortal sin, they can only be remitted all at once. In fact, the remission of serious sin consists in the infusion of the sanctifying grace which has been lost, and grace is incompatible with any and every serious sin. Venial sins are to be regarded differently…”
and in ECCLESIA DE EUCHARISTIA
“If a Christian’s conscience is burdened by serious sin, then the path of penance through the sacrament of Reconciliation becomes necessary for full participation in the Eucharistic Sacrifice.”
And Pope Benedict XVI in his Catecheses with Children said:
"Only in that case, when you are in a state of “mortal” sin, in other words, grave (sin), is it necessary to go to confession before Communion. This is my first point. " vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/speeches/2005/october/documents/hf_ben_xvi_spe_20051015_meeting-children_en.html
“The faithful, in their turn, must seek to receive and to venerate the Most Holy Sacrament with piety and devotion, eager to welcome the Lord Jesus with faith, and having recourse, whenever necessary, to the sacrament of reconciliation so as to purify the soul from every grave sin.”
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/homilies/2007/documents/hf_ben-xvi_hom_20070511_canonization-brazil_en.html
B
Bookcat
Guest
Remember:
Mortal sin = Serious sin = Grave sin
The Church uses these terms in two senses. And in both senses the terms grave sin, mortal sin, and serious sin are interchangeable.
Here are the two senses:
Fornication is a grave sin.
Fornication is a serious sin.
Fornication is a mortal sin.
(all three mean the same)
this is one way the Church use the term. Talking about the ‘moral object’ of the act or the ‘objective kind of sin’. Referring to the object itself. Like if I said…do not commit murder for that is a mortal sin.
Then there is this way…
I committed the grave sin of Murder
I committed the serious sin of Murder
I committed the mortal sin of Murder
(all three mean the same)
This is speaking of when the thing I committed is a “grave matter” …done with full knowledge and deliberate (complete) consent.
Both are true. Both are ways the terms get use in Church documents
Venial sin takes place when via light (less serious) matter or when there is grave matter but there is not full knowledge or complete consent.
Mortal sin = Serious sin = Grave sin
The Church uses these terms in two senses. And in both senses the terms grave sin, mortal sin, and serious sin are interchangeable.
Here are the two senses:
Fornication is a grave sin.
Fornication is a serious sin.
Fornication is a mortal sin.
(all three mean the same)
this is one way the Church use the term. Talking about the ‘moral object’ of the act or the ‘objective kind of sin’. Referring to the object itself. Like if I said…do not commit murder for that is a mortal sin.
Then there is this way…
I committed the grave sin of Murder
I committed the serious sin of Murder
I committed the mortal sin of Murder
(all three mean the same)
This is speaking of when the thing I committed is a “grave matter” …done with full knowledge and deliberate (complete) consent.
Both are true. Both are ways the terms get use in Church documents
Venial sin takes place when via light (less serious) matter or when there is grave matter but there is not full knowledge or complete consent.
J
JRKH
Guest
BC -
All of your posting from the Catechism is nice…but frankly I have been all through it.
The long and the short is that when the question comes up, as they invariably do, "How does one determine if something is “grave matter”, the catechism points us to the “ten commandments”. Violation of these is “grave matter” according to the Catechism…
but then immediately the matter of degree is raised and terminology is changed from “grave” to “serious” and the ten commandments to “moral law”…
I guess I am just too dense to get what they are trying to say - - or else they did a lousy job of saying it (either in the original or in the translation) - - but every time I try to work my way through it I come away frustrated.
And I use to read and write instructions and policies and procedures…so it isn’t like I’m unfamiliar with “technical writing”.
Something just doesn’t click…
Further discussion is probably useless at this point.
Peace
James
B
Bookcat
Guest
Right but the Catechism also expressly states that there is also that which is not grave matter under the 10 commandments–but light matter.
2073 Obedience to the Commandments also implies obligations in matter which is, in itself, light. Thus abusive language is forbidden by the fifth commandment, but would be a grave offense only as a result of circumstances or the offender’s intention.
And of course the Catechism is not an exhaustive source – one turns to sound Catholic Moral Theology as well.
This is part of the difficulty that is is being experienced here in understanding. There is NO change in terminology in the Catechism there on this point. It just seemed to you that it was. There is only ONE place the word “serious” is use in that section of the Catechism – and it is used here:
“One commits venial sin when, in a less serious matter”
And it is not calling it “serious” but “less serious” that is less serious than “serious”
that which is not serious enough to be called “serious” --that which is not grave. For it just finished discussing that which is grave and the English phrase “less-serious” works where as the phrase “less -grave” does not work so well. So the choice here was to say “less serious” as in a cold is “less serious” than Cancer but still makes you ill. In the other section of the Catechism the matter for venial sin is called “light” (see above quote).
The Church teaches that there is “Moral sin” --which is also called “serious sin” or “grave sin” (see the many varied documents–to which one can add canon law) on the one end – and then on the other end of the chasm – there is venial sin - which is either dealing with matter that is light (less serious…ie not serious) or is dealing with matter that is serious (grave) but where there was lacking full knowledge or deliberate consent.
Moral law is referring basically to the Ten Commandments (though the Natural moral Law which is then again expressed in the Ten Commandments is included)
Maybe part if your difficulty is just that. For with such instructions and procedures is a different genre than the Catechism(and which had also as its original main audience the Bishops). In Catholic Moral Theology and in the other Church Documents the terms “grave sin”, “serious sin” and “moral sin” refer to the same sin --and venial sin gets referred to as “less serious” than serious sin, “light sin”, “daily sins” etc
Just those two basic categories. Not a third.
This can be perhaps some help–read closely: catholicreference.net/index.cfm?id=34987
and then read: catholicreference.net/index.cfm?id=37060
B
Bookcat
Guest
Note only a few are from the Catechism --they are from a wide array of Church documents --to show that this is simply how these terms have been used all over the place.
Mortal Sin = Grave sin= Serious sin
From the Compendium issued by Pope Benedict XVI
"304. Which sins must be confessed?
1456
All grave sins not yet confessed, which a careful examination of conscience brings to mind, must be brought to the sacrament of Penance. The confession of serious sins is the only ordinary way to obtain forgiveness."
(note in the last example those exact terms are used to denote the same thing (mortal sin) -in the very same paragraph)
And in a speech from Pope John Paul II
“The sacrament of Penance is meant to take away personal sins committed after Baptism: first of all mortal sins, then venial. If the penitent has committed more than one mortal sin, they can only be remitted all at once. In fact, the remission of serious sin consists in the infusion of the sanctifying grace which has been lost, and grace is incompatible with any and every serious sin. Venial sins are to be regarded differently…”
1415
To receive Holy Communion one must be fully incorporated into the Catholic Church and be in the state of grace, that is, not conscious of being in** mortal sin**. Anyone who is conscious of having committed a grave sin must first receive the sacrament of Reconciliation before going to Communion.
From: The Compendium of the Catechism issued by Pope Benedict XVI
CCC1385: “Anyone conscious of a grave sin must receive the sacrament of Reconciliation before coming to communion.”
“However, it must be remembered that the church, guided by faith in this great sacrament, teaches that no Christian who is conscious of** grave sin** can receive the eucharist before having obtained God’s forgiveness.”
Pope John Paul II Reconciliatio et Paenitentia 17
In MISERICORDIA DEI he also noted:
“Individual and integral confession and absolution are the sole ordinary means by which the faithful, conscious of grave sin, are reconciled with God and the Church; only physical or moral impossibility excuses from such confession, in which case reconciliation can be obtained in other ways”
and
Since “the faithful are obliged to confess, according to kind and number, **all grave sins **committed after Baptism of which they are conscious after careful examination and which have not yet been directly remitted by the Church’s power of the keys
and in ECCLESIA DE EUCHARISTIA
“If a Christian’s conscience is burdened by serious sin, then the path of penance through the sacrament of Reconciliation becomes necessary for full participation in the Eucharistic Sacrifice.”
And Pope Benedict XVI in his Catecheses with Children said:
"Only in that case, when you are in a state of “mortal” sin, in other words, grave (sin), is it necessary to go to confession before Communion. This is my first point. " vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/speeches/2005/october/documents/hf_ben_xvi_spe_20051015_meeting-children_en.html
“The faithful, in their turn, must seek to receive and to venerate the Most Holy Sacrament with piety and devotion, eager to welcome the Lord Jesus with faith, and having recourse, whenever necessary, to the sacrament of reconciliation so as to purify the soul from every grave sin.”
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/homilies/2007/documents/hf_ben-xvi_hom_20070511_canonization-brazil_en.html
Mortal Sin = Grave sin= Serious sin
From the Compendium issued by Pope Benedict XVI
"304. Which sins must be confessed?
1456
All grave sins not yet confessed, which a careful examination of conscience brings to mind, must be brought to the sacrament of Penance. The confession of serious sins is the only ordinary way to obtain forgiveness."
(note in the last example those exact terms are used to denote the same thing (mortal sin) -in the very same paragraph)
And in a speech from Pope John Paul II
“The sacrament of Penance is meant to take away personal sins committed after Baptism: first of all mortal sins, then venial. If the penitent has committed more than one mortal sin, they can only be remitted all at once. In fact, the remission of serious sin consists in the infusion of the sanctifying grace which has been lost, and grace is incompatible with any and every serious sin. Venial sins are to be regarded differently…”
- What is required to receive Holy Communion?
1415
To receive Holy Communion one must be fully incorporated into the Catholic Church and be in the state of grace, that is, not conscious of being in** mortal sin**. Anyone who is conscious of having committed a grave sin must first receive the sacrament of Reconciliation before going to Communion.
From: The Compendium of the Catechism issued by Pope Benedict XVI
CCC1385: “Anyone conscious of a grave sin must receive the sacrament of Reconciliation before coming to communion.”
“However, it must be remembered that the church, guided by faith in this great sacrament, teaches that no Christian who is conscious of** grave sin** can receive the eucharist before having obtained God’s forgiveness.”
Pope John Paul II Reconciliatio et Paenitentia 17
In MISERICORDIA DEI he also noted:
“Individual and integral confession and absolution are the sole ordinary means by which the faithful, conscious of grave sin, are reconciled with God and the Church; only physical or moral impossibility excuses from such confession, in which case reconciliation can be obtained in other ways”
and
Since “the faithful are obliged to confess, according to kind and number, **all grave sins **committed after Baptism of which they are conscious after careful examination and which have not yet been directly remitted by the Church’s power of the keys
and in ECCLESIA DE EUCHARISTIA
“If a Christian’s conscience is burdened by serious sin, then the path of penance through the sacrament of Reconciliation becomes necessary for full participation in the Eucharistic Sacrifice.”
And Pope Benedict XVI in his Catecheses with Children said:
"Only in that case, when you are in a state of “mortal” sin, in other words, grave (sin), is it necessary to go to confession before Communion. This is my first point. " vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/speeches/2005/october/documents/hf_ben_xvi_spe_20051015_meeting-children_en.html
“The faithful, in their turn, must seek to receive and to venerate the Most Holy Sacrament with piety and devotion, eager to welcome the Lord Jesus with faith, and having recourse, whenever necessary, to the sacrament of reconciliation so as to purify the soul from every grave sin.”
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/homilies/2007/documents/hf_ben-xvi_hom_20070511_canonization-brazil_en.html
B
Bookcat
Guest
and
Compendium issued by Pope Benedict XVI
1874
One commits a mortal sin when there are simultaneously present: grave matter, full knowledge, and deliberate consent. This sin destroys charity in us, deprives us of sanctifying grace, and, if unrepented, leads us to the eternal death of hell. It can be forgiven in the ordinary way by means of the sacraments of Baptism and of Penance or Reconciliation.
1875
One commits a venial sin, which is essentially different from a mortal sin, when the matter involved is less serious or, even if it is grave, when full knowledge or complete consent are absent. Venial sin does not break the covenant with God but it weakens charity and manifests a disordered affection for created goods. It impedes the progress of a soul in the exercise of the virtues and in the practice of moral good. It merits temporal punishment which purifies.
vatican.va/archive/compendium_ccc/documents/archive_2005_compendium-ccc_en.html
Less serious means --as opposed to “serious”. Less than serious matter (less than grave matter). Not serious matter.
Compendium issued by Pope Benedict XVI
- When does one commit a mortal sin?
1874
One commits a mortal sin when there are simultaneously present: grave matter, full knowledge, and deliberate consent. This sin destroys charity in us, deprives us of sanctifying grace, and, if unrepented, leads us to the eternal death of hell. It can be forgiven in the ordinary way by means of the sacraments of Baptism and of Penance or Reconciliation.
- When does one commit a venial sin?
1875
One commits a venial sin, which is essentially different from a mortal sin, when the matter involved is less serious or, even if it is grave, when full knowledge or complete consent are absent. Venial sin does not break the covenant with God but it weakens charity and manifests a disordered affection for created goods. It impedes the progress of a soul in the exercise of the virtues and in the practice of moral good. It merits temporal punishment which purifies.
vatican.va/archive/compendium_ccc/documents/archive_2005_compendium-ccc_en.html
Less serious means --as opposed to “serious”. Less than serious matter (less than grave matter). Not serious matter.
K
knightbird111
Guest
Does anyones soul ever actually make it to heaven???..God seems to have made this test of being 100% holy an impossible measure to pass.
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