Different marital approaches leaving wife depressed

[cecilia97]

Hi Gospel,

Glad to hear counseling is in your plan.

puzzleannie made a reference to the different facets of depression…mental, emotional, spiritual, etc. I believe she left out physical. Depression is a strange beast. It can have a real chemical component that causes emotional stuff, or it can actually go the other way around. You don’t know until you talk to a professional.

As a woman with moderate clinical depression, I can say that perceptions are very important. Perceptions can be twisted by the condition…less so if you are aware this can happen and have it under control. Even without medical issues, each persons’ percpetions color their decisions, right or wrong. For example, you may “perceive” that I’m lecturing you when really I’m just hoping to gently get you to see things from your wife’s POV. Which is real? Sometimes “real” is what you feel. It’s different in religion, law, and science where we can be assured of absolute truths. Some things ARE indeed relative.

Your counselor will pick up on all this unless either of you goes into the sessions trying to act like everything is perfect.

Prayers for you both,

 

[onetruechurch]

When I worked at a state mental hospital we worked with our patients indirectly. I worked only with children and teens so I didn’t get involved with married people and their problems. One of the first things we did was make sure they exercised. Since our approach was indirect, we made sure we found an activity they could have fun doing and would be willing to do. Even ping pong can be considered exercise if the players are laughing and enjoying the activity. We tried to make everything “fun”. In order to work at this hospital we had to have a sense of humor and stimulate the children’s sense of humor. My suggestion to you is to put more fun back into your life. Many women need a fun-loving man who doesn’t take life so seriously. I am one of those women. My husband has a very challenging job where he must be perfectionistic when he is working. I consider it my job to lighten him up when he comes home. If you tend to be a perfectionist in your line of work it will be more of a challenge to lighten yourself up when you get home because you don’t have the support of your wife. If you don’t have a sense of humor I suggest you go to the library or bookstore and gets some books on humor. Steve Allen had some books teaching humor. If you can get your wife laughing again she will be on her way back to recovery. Try using some of the smilie faces in your posts:extrahappy: They can put you in a silly mood and help you lighten up. We all need to lighten up

 

[DJgang]

Gospel - I’m upset. I’m sorry, brother in Christ, but you’ve really got to see something…

Your wife has depression. Please support her. I perceived that everything in my life was raining, and it was sunny the whole time…that is DEPRESSION.

Quit complaining about her and get her some help.

Pay attention. I went for YEARS with no one giving a you know what about my depression as I slowly rotted away. I started seeking attention in places that I should not have and if only my DH would have encouraged me to get help. Now, that I am better after hitting the near bottom, do I realize that he could have helped me so much. He didn’t know, but you do…then help your wife.

And regardless of how she preceives anything you do, it’s how she feels, it’s her feelings and it’s REAL to her. It’s raining on her when it’s really sunny…hello, that’s depression.

Depression can make you feel like everyone is trying to control you. That everyone is being demanding of you and you can not do anything about it all. You can’t sort it all in your mind to even talk about it, that’s the reason you end up in screaming fights with everyone around you. You can’t get the reasoning for anything correct.

Sorry, if I sound harsh, but I’ve just suffered for so long…and what your wife is feeling is real.

Can’t you see, it’s the depression talking. If she were on drugs, you would say that it was the drugs talking wouldn’t you???

Peace. I am going to pray for you tonight.

 

[rayne89]

I have to say that I strongly disagree with this statement. It does not matter what the other persons percieves, unless it is the truth that is being percieved. To think otherwise, to me, is to use faulty perception as a club to blame the other person for something that he is not culpable for. To “put it in plain english” as Father Corapi would say, if you did not do the crime, you shouldn’t have to do the time.

And this is the big part of the problem. It absolutely matters what your wife percieves because how she percieves things is how she reacts. A relationship is not about deciding who’s feeling are “right” and whose are “wrong”. You need to leave the ego out of this and learn how to communicate.
I know this is going to sound like a corny suggestion but pick up the book Men are From Mars Women are From Venus - I guarantee you it will help you understand how your wife arrives at her perceptions. And if you can get her to read it, it will help her too. When I read it about 5 years ago I’d wished I had read it ten years earlier it would have saved us from so many miscommunications.

Now your wife needs to be medically treated for her depression. This is a medical problem and it needs to be addressed. Once she’s up to it I strongly suggest you attend a Marriage Encounter weekend together.

 

[Rebelecka]

I definately agree that the possibility of clinical depression must be checked out by a doctor. But here’s another angle that may be in play…my husband is extremely loud, vocal, opinionated, etc. He has a tendancy to run right over people without even meaning to. Are you like that? Is your wife quieter, less assertive/agressive? It can be a problem. BTW, if my husband tries to “run over” me, he gets a flat tire! LOL I’m just as vocal, etc. as he is…

 

[MSParrott]

I can completely understand both sides of the coin here. I have suffered from depression/anxiety for the last 10 years and by the grace of God, a good psychiatrist and medicine I am able to live my life again.:whacky:

From what you have said about her, I can kind of relate to your wife.

I love my wife, very much, but she tends to think that she can read my mind and tell me what I am thinking. She accuses me of being angry with her quite often, when the fact of the matter is that I am not. I tell her that I am not angry with her, but she keeps pushing and accusing me until at times I do get angry. Not because of the original reason she accused me of, but because of the nagging and insinuation that I am lieing to her that I am not angry with her. Then she uses my reaction after being nagged at to support her claim that “aha, I knew you were mad at me”.

Boy can I relate to that, as I have been guilty on more than one occasion of doing the same thing to my husband. But truthfully when I do this, it is actually the other way around - I am the one upset with HIM!
The fact that you have taken the time to write your feelings in this forum shows (at least to me) how much you love your wife. Why not invite her to read what you have written and openly, honestly discuss both of your feelings? She should be able to tell you how she feels about anything without being judged, scrutinized or being made to feel that her feelings are not valid. And on the other side, you should be able to tell her how you feel with the same respects.
Together with prayer, therapy and communication you can both get through this! Remember, that which does not kill you, makes you stronger.
My prayers are with the both of you and good luck with the counseling!

 

[Gospel]

It absolutely matters what your wife percieves because how she percieves things is how she reacts. A relationship is not about deciding who’s feeling are “right” and whose are “wrong”. You need to leave the ego out of this and learn how to communicate.

Again I strongly disgree with this statement. There are feelings that are “right” and there are feelings that are “wrong” The ego has nothing to do with this, truth and honesty along with genuine self sacrificing love is what realtionships should be made of.

Accepting accusations from the the “wrong” types of feelings is unhealthy and rediculouse in my book. I don’t mind sacrificing my self for my wife, however that should not entail accepting accusations of untrue things about myself.

I have stated earlier in my post that I am a flawed human being, so far be it from me to compare myself to the Lord, becaue I know that I am but dust and ashes. However Jesus was the ultimate self sacrificer and yet he never accepted or promoted untruths, evem if it was to make a person feel better. If thta principal was good enough for Jesus than it is good enough for me.

I am a very black and white person. I see very little grey. There is right and there is wrong, there is no real inbetween.

 

[Gospel]

Sometimes “real” is what you feel. It’s different in religion, law, and science where we can be assured of absolute truths. Some things ARE indeed relative.

I strongly disagree with this statement. I do not disagree that feeling are “real”, what the bottom line is, are the feelings based on truth or not. Are they “right” or “wrong”. I don’t mind if a person has a “wrong” feeling as long as they are working by God’s grace to mike it “right”.

There is nothing that is relative. Our perception of a thing may be confused, because of our sinful nature however, nothing EVER is relative. The bottom line is everything is black and white. We might not recognize that, but it is true. This confusion of not being able to recognize black and white is what causes the “grey” in our perception.

My wife has been on medication for years now, and has gone to counseling herself before. I am more that willing to go with her now to counseling, I think that it will be a great thing. I am even more than willing to go get individual counseling myself, if it will help. However, in dealing with this problem I am going to use logic. Feelings are real, however in my book they need to be tempered with what is right and what is wrong.

I do not believe that you can attack a problem in a way that is other than logical and come out with the truth. I hope I am conveying what I mean clearly with that last statement. What I am saying that in todays day and age people tend to rely more on their emotions and feelings than on using their mind to figure out what is right and wrong. More times than not a person might ask you how you “feel” about a certain subject, instead of asking you what you “think” about a certain subject. There is a difference. I am not saying that feelings do not play a role, but they must be tempered by the mind, which should be formed by God’s teaching on what is right and wrong.

I transfer the above principals to counseling. If counseling is based on nothing other than feelings than I want no part of it, because it will not help the situation. However if the counseling takes into account feelings and the mind based on what is true or false, or right and wrong than I am all for it.

This may sound harsh, but it is the truth. Please pray that we find a good counseler…

 

[cecilia97]

I strongly disagree with this statement. I do not disagree that feeling are “real”, what the bottom line is, are the feelings based on truth or not. Are they “right” or “wrong”. I don’t mind if a person has a “wrong” feeling as long as they are working by God’s grace to mike it “right”.

There is nothing that is relative. Our perception of a thing may be confused, because of our sinful nature however, nothing EVER is relative. The bottom line is everything is black and white. We might not recognize that, but it is true. This confusion of not being able to recognize black and white is what causes the “grey” in our perception.

My wife has been on medication for years now, and has gone to counseling herself before. I am more that willing to go with her now to counseling, I think that it will be a great thing. I am even more than willing to go get individual counseling myself, if it will help. However, in dealing with this problem I am going to use logic. Feelings are real, however in my book they need to be tempered with what is right and what is wrong.

I do not believe that you can attack a problem in a way that is other than logical and come out with the truth. I hope I am conveying what I mean clearly with that last statement. What I am saying that in todays day and age people tend to rely more on their emotions and feelings than on using their mind to figure out what is right and wrong. More times than not a person might ask you how you “feel” about a certain subject, instead of asking you what you “think” about a certain subject. There is a difference. I am not saying that feelings do not play a role, but they must be tempered by the mind, which should be formed by God’s teaching on what is right and wrong.

I transfer the above principals to counseling. If counseling is based on nothing other than feelings than I want no part of it, because it will not help the situation. However if the counseling takes into account feelings and the mind based on what is true or false, or right and wrong than I am all for it.

This may sound harsh, but it is the truth. Please pray that we find a good counseler…

While I do believe there are plenty of things that are relative (i.e. is Beethoven’s Emperor Concerto “good”?, or does a color blind man see “blue” the way you do?), that’s not the real issue.

The logic of a doctor can help a person with depression, no doubt. But you usually cannot successfully tell a person with depression to “logic” themselves out of it. Real depression is not something one can bootstrap themselves up and out of. It only ever appears that way to the lucky folks who have no experience with it.

You’ll learn lots in counseling, maybe more than your wife. You’re both in my prayers.

 

[Guitar]

The logic of a doctor can help a person with depression, no doubt. But you usually cannot successfully tell a person with depression to “logic” themselves out of it. Real depression is not something one can bootstrap themselves up and out of. It only ever appears that way to the lucky folks who have no experience with it.

You’ll learn lots in counseling, maybe more than your wife. You’re both in my prayers.

I have spent half my adult life with diagnosed clinical depression and most of my childhood with it undiagnosed.

One thing I have learned in dealing with depression is that one’s significant other, be that spouse or fiance or whatever, cannot in any way take control of your illness or impose their structure or timetable or opinions on your recovery. Yes, they are entitled to insist that you get professional help, because your illness affects them too, but once the provider of that help is settled upon, the SO should take the back seat and cooperate with the sufferer and the treatment.

Gospel, for what my opinion is worth … assuming you have selected a competent doctor or therapist or whatever the appropriate local term is, accept that they are trained to deal with this and you are not. A person who has not been there **is not capable **of understanding what life looks like from behind a depressed person’s eyeballs. I am by nature, nurture and professional training a head-over-heart, logical and analytical type. I look back to how I thought and felt and reacted in the grip of depression and even I can’t get my head around the difference - and I was there! So when I read what you say about logic - in this context - it makes me a little concerned. You cannot dismiss the current “reality” in your wife’s mind, because whatever you think about it, right wrong or otherwise, what she does feel and think is what the therapist/doctor/whatever has to deal with, not what anyone else thinks she “should” feel and think. Whether or not what she feels is logical is a different matter to applying a logical, analytical process to work out what she actually feels and why she feels it and where to go from there.

 

[Cadence]

I suffer from depression and let me tell you, telling someone that their feelings are wrong is about as destructive as it gets. Now, you may not agree that you have done anything to warrent these feelings and maybe you have not - in a healthy person. But she is clearly not healthy. You really need to let her know that her feelings are important to you. If you make her safe to have her feelings then you may find her wallowing in them less.

Besides, everyone is different. Something that upsets a very sensitive person may not upset a less sensitive person. Who is right? It upsets me greatly when people yell at me. I know others don’t mind yelling at all and they just yell back - it is the way they express themselves! I am not wrong for feeling upset when I get yelled at. Sometimes the person yelling may be justified sometimes they are not. But I am not wrong to feel upset about it! Do you get what I’m saying here?

I just know that if you are telling her that her feelings are wrong you are making the situation SOOOO much worse and I’m sure you don’t want to be doing that.

 

[Cadence]

By the way, I completely agree you shouldn’t admit to doing something you haven’t done just to keep the peace. That is silly. That doesn’t mean you can’t validate her feelings though. When she expresses her feelings to you and accuses you of causing them, try to take the focus away from what she is accusing you of and ask her questions about her feelings. Sometimes just saying “I’m sorry you are feeling that way. Is there anything I can do to help you feel better?” can do a lot. You have communicated to her that you love her and want to help, but you haven’t admited doing anything wrong. What do you think?

 

[DJgang]

Amen Candence!

 

[OldAgeGuru]

I strongly disagree with this statement. I do not disagree that feeling are “real”, what the bottom line is, are the feelings based on truth or not. Are they “right” or “wrong”. I don’t mind if a person has a “wrong” feeling as long as they are working by God’s grace to mike it “right”.
I have a panic disorder. When I have a panic attack, I can’t breathe, I start sweating profusely, the walls close in on me, my vision gets blurry, and my hearing gets tinny. All of this must be false feelings, I must not really be experiencing these things because I have nothing I should be panicking about. That’s false. It’s a DISORDER. I can’t help that it strikes me anytime
There is nothing that is relative. Our perception of a thing may be confused, because of our sinful nature however, nothing EVER is relative. The bottom line is everything is black and white. We might not recognize that, but it is true. This confusion of not being able to recognize black and white is what causes the “grey” in our perception.Honey, nothing is black and white and that’s why marriage involves WORK AND COMPROMISE. My fiance cooks. I make lean pockets (I could burn water) My finace would put salt on cereal if it were socially acceptable. I don’t like food that has any taste. We compromise when he cooks and he adds salt after it’s been served.When we get married next fall I’m sure this will continue this way. If he stated to me on 10/12/08 "OldAgeGuru. we’re married now, and as the head of the household I will no demand you enjoy salt irregardless of it’s properties and effects on you digestive and cardiovascular system. I am the head of the househld and I deem it so. THere is no grey on this issue. You will have the salt on your food or you will starve. We’ll suffice to say, we would be entering a prolinged abstinence period.

My wife has been on medication for years now, and has gone to counseling herself before. I am more that willing to go with her now to counseling, I think that it will be a great thing. I am even more than willing to go get individual counseling myself, if it will help. However, in dealing with this problem I am going to use logic. Feelings are real, however in my book they need to be tempered with what is right and what is wrong. There’s a phrase we use in counseling that comes from the Bible. “The sins of the father are visited upon the son” You parents, like all parents have programmed you. Sometimes it’s not a bad thing. But the way you are coming across, it seems as though your mother may have been a little doormat-ish, and perhaps you have learned that all wives should be submissive in the way that word means now, and not the way it’s meant in the Bible.

I transfer the above principals to counseling. If counseling is based on nothing other than feelings than I want no part of it, because it will not help the situation. However if the counseling takes into account feelings and the mind based on what is true or false, or right and wrong than I am all for it.Counseling is going to be a large part of feelings and perceptions. Frankly, I think you both need individual counseling and marriage counseling. I think you both need to make it a priority to follow through, and not just roll your eyes cause it deals with “icky feelings”

QUOTE]

 

[Guitar]

I suffer from depression and let me tell you, telling someone that their feelings are wrong is about as destructive as it gets.

After many years of suffering with depression, this is an “acid test” for me. Any faint hint of “I’ll respect your thoughts, feelings and values only when they make perfect sense to me” and that person is out of my life on their ear, no matter what the relationship.

 

[rayne89]

Again I strongly disgree with this statement. There are feelings that are “right” and there are feelings that are “wrong” The ego has nothing to do with this, truth and honesty along with genuine self sacrificing love is what realtionships should be made of.

Accepting accusations from the the “wrong” types of feelings is unhealthy and rediculouse in my book. I don’t mind sacrificing my self for my wife, however that should not entail accepting accusations of untrue things about myself.

I have stated earlier in my post that I am a flawed human being, so far be it from me to compare myself to the Lord, becaue I know that I am but dust and ashes. However Jesus was the ultimate self sacrificer and yet he never accepted or promoted untruths, evem if it was to make a person feel better. If thta principal was good enough for Jesus than it is good enough for me.

I am a very black and white person. I see very little grey. There is right and there is wrong, there is no real inbetween.

Get the book I mentioned please. You are right you are not God and you are not all knowing and all seeing and you can not possibly know for certain everything you perceive to be wrong with your wife’s feelings are truly wrong.

I have to say you remind me of a male co-worker who has made it known his marriage is not doing well. When I make suggestions he argues “I does all the work in the relationship, I don’t have too… blah blah blah.” I said “Fine if you’d rather be right and miserable go right ahead. If it’s more important to show that your wife is wrong and you are right than to be in a loving, happy marriage go at it but don’t complain to me.”

There have been many times when my husband has been irrated, upset, hurt by something I’ve done over our 16 year marriage. Although it wasn’t always this way now even though 95% of the time his perception was not my intent behind the action at all, I apologize sincerely. Why? Because it doesn’t matter whose right -this not a court of law this is a marriage. What matters is my husband took something a certain way and it upset him. And I am truly sorry for that. I could get defensive and say “That’s not what I meant at all, you are wrong to feel that way.” And what good does that accomplish. Woo-hoo score one point for me -I’m right. And now we hours or days of disgreements and hurt instead of minutes but I’m right so it doesn’t matter.

And the thing with accusing you of being angry when your not. Used to do it to my husband all the time. Why? Because his behavior -being kind of quiet, having a rather expressionless look on his face those are way I would behave if I was a was angry.
And with most women you have to ask them 16 times if their angry before they’ll actually tell you because they want to make sure you really care that something is bothering them. So I thought I was doing the loving thing by bugging the snot out of him to tell me what was wrong.

This is why I recommended the Mars/Venus book to help you understand why you wife does the things she does and it has nothing to do with right or wrong. ANd maybe get your wife to understand your reactions as well.

Another book I recommend is " For Better Forever" by Catholic author Gregory Popcak.

Now you can wallow in your rightness and indignation or you can make some changes that will help your marriage and your wife. Do you love your wife more than you love proving your right?

 

[1ke]

Part of the problem is that my wife and I come from 2 very different families. We both approach disagreements, problem solving, and child rearing from very different perspectives.

Yes, that is problematic. And, you both need to get some books and some counseling on how to find your *joint *style of communication and problem solving.

Her Mom and Dad think that I am abusive, because they say that I am loud, arrogant and a control freak. My family thinks that I don’t have control of my family enough.

Well, here’s a HUGE problem. You’ve been married 13 years and you are still involving your parents in the personal details of your marriage and allowing their opinions to influence how you two relate to each other.

STOP.

Parents don’t get a say in how you run your household. Parents are not the people you talk about your marital discord with.

How they would run the household is irrelevant. And, what they think of your joint style is irrelevant. It’s about how you **together **decide to run YOUR household.

I feel bad that my wife is depressed, however I do not know what to do to help her…it is exasperating at times…

It’s hard to know from this WHY your wife is depressed. You haven’t given any context here as to what is going on, how she is acting, how you are acting, what you’ve tried already, and why she is depressed.

What do I do from here?

Get your parents out of your marriage and then get some Counseling-- try Retrouvaille.

And, p.s., it is NOT normal to have FEAR of your father in the way you describe. That is not something to emulate.

 

[1ke]

I guess perception is a bit of a sore spot with me because it is the major problem in our communications. I love my wife, very much, but she tends to think that she can read my mind and tell me what I am thinking. She accuses me of being angry with her quite often, when the fact of the matter is that I am not. I tell her that I am not angry with her, but she keeps pushing and accusing me until at times I do get angry. Not because of the original reason she accused me of, but because of the nagging and insinuation that I am lieing to her that I am not angry with her. Then she uses my reaction after being nagged at to support her claim that “aha, I knew you were mad at me”. It becomes a self fulfilling prophesy, leaving me no way to diffuse the situation, except to take the accusation that I am mad at her and lieing about it. That does drive me crazy after awhile. I have told her a couple of times, that only me and God know what I am thinking and the last time I checked you were not God. I know that sounds bad, but it is how I honestly feel at times…

This is classic manipulation based on insecurity. Your wife has some major emotional problems. Edited to add: and likely escalated because of the depression.

 

[1ke]

Gospel:

I think the rigid way in which you see the world is wrong, false, and *distorted *by your family of origin.

It is contributing to your wife’s issues and amplifying them.

In addition to getting marital help (such as Retrouvaille or Marriage Encounter) perhaps you need some *individual *counseling to help you see that you have some issues, too.

 

[chevalier]

I have to say that I strongly disagree with this statement. It does not matter what the other persons percieves, unless it is the truth that is being percieved. To think otherwise, to me, is to use faulty perception as a club to blame the other person for something that he is not culpable for. To “put it in plain english” as Father Corapi would say, if you did not do the crime, you shouldn’t have to do the time.

to use an example, I may falsely percive that it is raining outside, when in fact it is really sunny outside. My perception that it is raining is false. No sane person would say that it is raining outside, when in fact it is really sunny.

Gospel, I’m no one to give marriage advice, but perceptions and the rest of it are part of my job (philosophy is a bigger part of law than one might think)… I agree totally that things can’t be black and white at the same time, true or false. Changing one’s mind on the colour of the grass doesn’t change the reality of it, and so on and so forth.

But the problem is that things in interpersonal relationships (another part of the job, I guess) aren’t so easy and readily visible as the colour of the grass or the sky. Perceptions come into the way and they are both other people’s and ours. What we think we know may be something we merely perceive in a faulty way as much as other people do. Emotions. Convictions. Patterns taken from home. They all influence the way we see things so that some things appear obviously correct and natural to us, while to other people they’re just strange. I’m not saying one can’t be objectively right or wrong in these matters, but I wouldn’t bet my last money on being correct just because it looks to me like I am.

So, in your concrete example, you may be objectively not controlling and your wife may see you as controlling, but how do you know you’re right and she’s wrong? You can’t really conduct any evidence process, nor can you trust your feelings or instincts as objective reference. Obviously, you may both be misunderstanding each other, but I’d spend some time thinking on what exactly made her think you’re controlling.

Besides, perceptions don’t shape the reality they’re supposed only to reflect, but they shape reality in the way that people act on them. You act on your perceptions. Your wife acts on hers. If you don’t deal with those perceptions, you can’t really straighten things out. Suppose you’re teaching a student who’s particularly resistant to the knowledge you’re imparting in him. He has some contrary, wrong ideas. Do you just repeat the truth until it sinks in, or do you take time and explain with him what made him see things that way, so that you can both work it out and he can actually arrive at the right conclusions? If you keep repeating the truth and demanding it on tests, you won’t really have tought him much except to remember a formula by heart. It’s also possible that not only your wife, but also you yourself perceive certain things in a different way from what they are or what they are intended to be, and talking to your wife and maybe (preferably) also a counsellor could help you straighten those out.

In no way do I say you need to take the blame for something you haven’t done… but thing is, we often don’t see what we’ve done until it’s explained to us and if we don’t listen, it won’t be explained. If we listen to the other person’s feelings as well, we might be able to help him regardless of the truth/falsehood of what he thinks is being done to him. After all, feelings matter and matter a lot. We are responsible for the feelings we awaken in others and if we’re also responsible for them as persons, then it’s so much more.

As has been said, however, I think you need to take your wife to the appropriate medical professional. It doesn’t look healthy and it does seem to be more than an occasional low mood after a quarrel. Also, much of the problem with control and other emotional abuse may be interrelated with depression. I don’t want to speculate, but it just seems to me it’s easier to “inflict” emotional abuse on someone suffering from depression, while real abuse makes problems with depression worse. I don’t think dissecting your problems is worth much without taking the medical condition in due consideration. Then, when you move on to psychologists and conselling, it would be best to consider both your and her problems with abuse, some ingrained patterns from home etc.