Different Psalm Sung During Liturgy of the Word

[dsully]

Hello All,

The music team at my parish sings a different psalm than the one listed in the lectionary for mass. I think that they do this because they have music worked out for certain psalms, but not all of them. Is this a liturgical abuse? If so, should I write the pastor?

Thanks,

Dsully

 

[SuscipeMeDomine]

Hello All,

The music team at my parish sings a different psalm than the one listed in the lectionary for mass. I think that they do this because they have music worked out for certain psalms, but not all of them. Is this a liturgical abuse? If so, should I write the pastor?

Thanks,

Dsully

As with many parts of the Mass, there are options available. Missalettes don’t show all the legitimate options. See section 61 of the GIRM for more.

I assume the pastor is present at Mass and hears the psalms the choir sings. Don’t you think he would do something if there was a problem?

 

[porthos11]

Hello All,

The music team at my parish sings a different psalm than the one listed in the lectionary for mass. I think that they do this because they have music worked out for certain psalms, but not all of them. Is this a liturgical abuse? If so, should I write the pastor?

Thanks,

Dsully

Seasonal psalms?
Roman Gradual?

 

[cominghome1966]

Hello All,

The music team at my parish sings a different psalm than the one listed in the lectionary for mass. I think that they do this because they have music worked out for certain psalms, but not all of them. Is this a liturgical abuse? If so, should I write the pastor?

Thanks,

Dsully

I wouldn’t worry about it. Just enjoy your time in the presence of our Lord.

 

[pianistclare]

I know what you mean The past choir director had a book that said you could sing any song that was “close”.
Our past pastor was not a purist in this, so he permitted it, and now the subsequent Director does the same. Mostly because the choir doesn’t want to learn them all, which is crazy because they are pretty simple. They also complain that they sing the same songs all the time. Well, yeah.

So it turns out that we sing the SAME psalm every week during the Easter season…a Gospel style one that the people now hate, We’re just sick of it.
The DIretor says the choir isn’t good enough to learn them all. Interesting. My little Hispanic choir who can’t read a note of music does the appropriate psalm every single week.

Besides being a musician, as the DRE this drives me crazy. We catechists spend alot of time telling students that it’s beneficial to read the readings in advance, be familiar and think about them. So they get to church and it’s all different. And seemingly random.

But, the pastor doesn’t want to say anything. He says they don’t pay her enough to make demands.

I wouldn’t say anything to the pastor. He knows, and he apparently doesn’t think it’s bad.
:twocents:

 

[Reuben_J]

Hello All,

The music team at my parish sings a different psalm than the one listed in the lectionary for mass. I think that they do this because they have music worked out for certain psalms, but not all of them. Is this a liturgical abuse? If so, should I write the pastor?

Thanks,

Dsully

GIRM #61.
After the First Reading follows the Responsorial Psalm, which is an integral part of the Liturgy of the Word and which has great liturgical and pastoral importance, since it fosters meditation on the Word of God. The Responsorial Psalm should correspond to each reading and should usually be taken from the Lectionary.

It is preferable for the Responsorial Psalm to be sung, at least as far as the people’s response is concerned. Hence the psalmist, or cantor of the Psalm, sings the Psalm verses at the ambo or another suitable place, while the whole congregation sits and listens, normally taking part by means of the response, except when the Psalm is sung straight through, that is, without a response.

…
**
Songs or hymns may not be used in place of the Responsorial Psalm.**

Our archdiocese is GIRM compliance and our masses are rather standardised in all the parishes within it.

The Responsorial Psalm is sung, if the choir is up to it. Usually it is in Sunday masses.

When we were briefed on the implementation of GIRM for the archdiocese, it was decided that the psalm should not be substituted with hymns because they do not have the same wording and arrangement as the Responsorial Psalm.

Before that the choir often sang hymns in its place but not anymore.

As for writing to the pastor, I think it is better just to talk to him casually about it and see what he says. He is, after all the pastor.

 

[1ke]

No and no.

 

[dsully]

Thanks for the replies thus far. Any psalm is a good psalm, but, as a lover of scripture and a convert, I just found it odd that our parish musical director is not using the psalms in the lectionary for mass. I guess I won’t worry about it.

 

[CB_Catholic]

Thanks for the replies thus far. Any psalm is a good psalm, but, as a lover of scripture and a convert, I just found it odd that our parish musical director is not using the psalms in the lectionary for mass. I guess I won’t worry about it.

It is the same way at my parish, but not constantly. Anyway, if you take a look at the missalette the psalms are in, note that it gives a number of psalms that may be used in place of the one in the lectionary.

 

[1ke]

GIRM #61.
After the First Reading follows the Responsorial Psalm, which is an integral part of the Liturgy of the Word and which has great liturgical and pastoral importance, since it fosters meditation on the Word of God. The Responsorial Psalm should correspond to each reading and should usually be taken from the Lectionary.

It is preferable for the Responsorial Psalm to be sung, at least as far as the people’s response is concerned. Hence the psalmist, or cantor of the Psalm, sings the Psalm verses at the ambo or another suitable place, while the whole congregation sits and listens, normally taking part by means of the response, except when the Psalm is sung straight through, that is, without a response.

…
**
Songs or hymns may not be used in place of the Responsorial Psalm.**

Our archdiocese is GIRM compliance and our masses are rather standardised in all the parishes within it.

The Responsorial Psalm is sung, if the choir is up to it. Usually it is in Sunday masses.

When we were briefed on the implementation of GIRM for the archdiocese, it was decided that the psalm should not be substituted with hymns because they do not have the same wording and arrangement as the Responsorial Psalm.

Before that the choir often sang hymns in its place but not anymore.

As for writing to the pastor, I think it is better just to talk to him casually about it and see what he says. He is, after all the pastor.

You left out this very important paragraph. Above you are implying the psalm must be the psalm in the lectionary, but this is not true. The rest of the GIRM paragraph states:

In the Dioceses of the United States of America, instead of the Psalm assigned in the Lectionary, there may be sung either the Responsorial Gradual from the Graduale Romanum, or the Responsorial Psalm or the Alleluia Psalm from the Graduale Simplex, as described in these books, or an antiphon and Psalm from another collection of Psalms and antiphons, including Psalms arranged in metrical form, providing that they have been approved by the Conference of Bishops or the Diocesan Bishop. Songs or hymns may not be used in place of the Responsorial Psalm.

 

[CB_Catholic]

You left out this very important paragraph. Above you are implying the psalm must be the psalm in the lectionary, but this is not true. The rest of the GIRM paragraph states:

In the Dioceses of the United States of America, instead of the Psalm assigned in the Lectionary, there may be sung either the Responsorial Gradual from the Graduale Romanum, or the Responsorial Psalm or the Alleluia Psalm from the Graduale Simplex, as described in these books, or an antiphon and Psalm from another collection of Psalms and antiphons, including Psalms arranged in metrical form, providing that they have been approved by the Conference of Bishops or the Diocesan Bishop. Songs or hymns may not be used in place of the Responsorial Psalm.

Correct. And that is why the OP’s parish and my parish are not committing “liturgical abuse”. I looked into this before concerning my parish using other psalms frequently. They are within the guidelines.

 

[Reuben_J]

You left out this very important paragraph. Above you are implying the psalm must be the psalm in the lectionary, but this is not true. The rest of the GIRM paragraph states:

In the Dioceses of the United States of America, instead of the Psalm assigned in the Lectionary, there may be sung either the Responsorial Gradual from the Graduale Romanum, or the Responsorial Psalm or the Alleluia Psalm from the Graduale Simplex, as described in these books, or an antiphon and Psalm from another collection of Psalms and antiphons, including Psalms arranged in metrical form, providing that they have been approved by the Conference of Bishops or the Diocesan Bishop. Songs or hymns may not be used in place of the Responsorial Psalm.

Duh. Inconsequential to my post unless you has this need to be correct.

Why would in the world I imply that the psalm must be in the lectionary when I put up GIRM, an open document for everyone to see?

I used it as a reference that hymns may not replace the responsorial psalm. You are either GIRM compliance or not GIRM compliance. And if you do, that is GIRM makes a clause to allow it, so what is the problem?

Seeing that you left it until today to respond to my post, you must have taken the time to read GIRM, which is always a good thing.

I do not make the call whether it is a liturgical abuse or not, and that was clear in my post. Besides, GIRM is using the phrase, may not, perhaps saying that there is a situation clause, it may be allowed.

I was responding to the OP and all I could do was to share my parish (archdiocese) experience which is GIRM compliance. We had started many years ago, and when it was done, nearly everyone who was involved in the liturgy, directly or indirectly, were briefed and trained in its application.

I find it makes things much clearer when we have GIRM, as a point of reference in the liturgy.

Liturgical abuses are often as results of those responsible for the liturgy, and less so from the congregation. Our cathedral is like a mini Vatican due to its size, physically and the congregation, every Sunday mass. The number of altar servers, EHMCs, … the procession is always long. The main chapel is always packed, so there are more than two dozens of ushers to direct the crowd.

When there were changes in the liturgy, brought about by GIRM, it is easier to have people following them. If you try to do something different, you would stand out as different, and not many Catholics would want to be caught doing that.

Yes, we have foreigners who attend the mass, they may be some liturgical expert perhaps like your good self, but they would not dare to make a scene simply because the majority doesn’t.

I suggest you don’t think too much, especially for things that is not there. Relax. If you want to make a statement and to be seen as someone clever, you can just do so. Do not speculate on what I did not say.

Have a blessed day.

 

[Phemie]

Duh. Inconsequential to my post unless you has this need to be correct.

Why would in the world I imply that the psalm must be in the lectionary when I put up GIRM, an open document for everyone to see?

I used it as a reference that hymns may not replace the responsorial psalm. You are either GIRM compliance or not GIRM compliance. And if you do, that is GIRM makes a clause to allow it, so what is the problem?

Seeing that you left it until today to respond to my post, you must have taken the time to read GIRM, which is always a good thing.

I do not make the call whether it is a liturgical abuse or not, and that was clear in my post. Besides, GIRM is using the phrase, may not, perhaps saying that there is a situation clause, it may be allowed.

I was responding to the OP and all I could do was to share my parish (archdiocese) experience which is GIRM compliance. We had started many years ago, and when it was done, nearly everyone who was involved in the liturgy, directly or indirectly, were briefed and trained in its application.

Except that your post did not address the OP’s question which was about the use of a different Psalm from that which is found in the Lectionary. Reading only what you posted left the impression that his parish was doing something wrong when in fact they probably aren’t because the Lectionary Psalm is not the only appropriate one.

Do I like the fact that my parish choir opts to use the same Psalm for all of Advent every single year, one which is not in the Lectionary? No.

Are they doing something wrong? No, they are using one of the legitimate options, one of the two “Seasonal Psalms” chosen by our national Conference of Catholic Bishops.

 

[1ke]

Duh. Inconsequential to my post unless you has this need to be correct.

Completely consequential to the OP’s post. Your post was misleading as a reply to him. He specifically asked if changing the Psalm to a different Psalm was a liturgical abuse.

Why would in the world I imply that the psalm must be in the lectionary when I put up GIRM, an open document for everyone to see?

Your post was incomplete and misleading. Therefore, I posted the missing information.

Seeing that you left it until today to respond to my post, you must have taken the time to read GIRM, which is always a good thing.

I already know what the GIRM says. Seeing as I do not stay up 24 hours a day on CAF, I posted the next time I came to this thread. Nothing mysterious.

 

[Kenny_Kamel]

GIRM #61.
After the First Reading follows the Responsorial Psalm, which is an integral part of the Liturgy of the Word and which has great liturgical and pastoral importance, since it fosters meditation on the Word of God. The Responsorial Psalm should correspond to each reading and should usually be taken from the Lectionary.

It is preferable for the Responsorial Psalm to be sung, at least as far as the people’s response is concerned. Hence the psalmist, or cantor of the Psalm, sings the Psalm verses at the ambo or another suitable place, while the whole congregation sits and listens, normally taking part by means of the response, except when the Psalm is sung straight through, that is, without a response.

…
**
Songs or hymns may not be used in place of the Responsorial Psalm.**

Our archdiocese is GIRM compliance and our masses are rather standardised in all the parishes within it.

The Responsorial Psalm is sung, if the choir is up to it. Usually it is in Sunday masses.

When we were briefed on the implementation of GIRM for the archdiocese, it was decided that the psalm should not be substituted with hymns because they do not have the same wording and arrangement as the Responsorial Psalm.

Before that the choir often sang hymns in its place but not anymore.

As for writing to the pastor, I think it is better just to talk to him casually about it and see what he says. He is, after all the pastor.

I came across this thread and wanted to ask if anyone knows what the Continuous Psalm is? It seems to have been forgotten in the Novus Ordo, suffice it to say that it is the normal Psalm to be sung during the Liturgy of the Word with a Responsorial Psalm as an option. It seems that this is another instance where something optional in the Mass has become the standard to the point where the original standard has been lost and most are not even aware of said original standard.

 

[CB_Catholic]

I came across this thread and wanted to ask if anyone knows what the Continuous Psalm is? It seems to have been forgotten in the Novus Ordo, suffice it to say that it is the normal Psalm to be sung during the Liturgy of the Word with a Responsorial Psalm as an option. It seems that this is another instance where something optional in the Mass has become the standard to the point where the original standard has been lost and most are not even aware of said original standard.

Well, according to the GIRM, the Lectionary, and Musica Sacra (all of which people frequently cite here) there is no mention of anything other than the responsorial psalm, as well as emphasizing the importance of the people responding. So can you tell us where the idea of continual psalm being the norm in the OF came from? Because I have never seen it mentioned in any missal or missalette I’ve seen, but I am not a liturgy expert, just interested in this. It seems to me the Responsorial Psalm is the standard and the norm in the OF, not an option. Perhaps one of our priests could help out here.

 

[pnewton]

The rest of the story:

usccb.org/prayer-and-worship/the-mass/general-instruction-of-the-roman-missal/girm-chapter-2.cfm

The Responsorial Psalm should correspond to each reading and should usually be taken from the Lectionary.

It is preferable for the Responsorial Psalm to be sung, at least as far as the people’s response is concerned. Hence the psalmist, or cantor of the Psalm, sings the Psalm verses at the ambo or another suitable place, while the whole congregation sits and listens, normally taking part by means of the response, except when the Psalm is sung straight through, that is, without a response. However, in order that the people may be able to sing the Psalm response more easily, texts of some responses and Psalms have been chosen for the different times of the year or for the different categories of Saints. These may be used instead of the text corresponding to the reading whenever the Psalm is sung. If the Psalm cannot be sung, then it should be recited in a way that is particularly suited to fostering meditation on the Word of God.

In the Dioceses of the United States of America, instead of the Psalm assigned in the Lectionary, there may be sung either the Responsorial Gradual from the Graduale Romanum, or the Responsorial Psalm or the Alleluia Psalm from the Graduale Simplex, as described in these books, or an antiphon and Psalm from another collection of Psalms and antiphons, including Psalms arranged in metrical form, providing that they have been approved by the Conference of Bishops or the Diocesan Bishop. Songs or hymns may not be used in place of the Responsorial Psalm.

So, there are more available options than a simple “no hymns or songs” indicates.

 

[pnewton]

I know what you mean The past choir director had a book that said you could sing any song that was “close”.
Our past pastor was not a purist in this, so he permitted it, and now the subsequent Director does the same. Mostly because the choir doesn’t want to learn them all, which is crazy because they are pretty simple. They also complain that they sing the same songs all the time. Well, yeah.

I do not understand why it would be so difficult to “learn” a Psalm. If it is not simple enough to learn after hearing it a couple of times, it is not simple enough.

 

[OraLabora]

Well, according to the GIRM, the Lectionary, and Musica Sacra (all of which people frequently cite here) there is no mention of anything other than the responsorial psalm, as well as emphasizing the importance of the people responding. So can you tell us where the idea of continual psalm being the norm in the OF came from? Because I have never seen it mentioned in any missal or missalette I’ve seen, but I am not a liturgy expert, just interested in this. It seems to me the Responsorial Psalm is the standard and the norm in the OF, not an option. Perhaps one of our priests could help out here.

AFAIK there is no such thing as the “continual psalm”. I think he may refer to the Gradual Response, which licitly may take the place of the responsorial psalm, even in the OF. The appropriate one to use is specified in the 1974 Graduale Romanum.

In the EF the Gradual was the choice for a sung Mass. In the OF, it is an option and in fact at the abbey where I attend Mass, it is the norm. One of the other options is the psalm given in the Graduale Simplex, a Gregorian chant gradual for the OF with simpler settings for less experienced choirs.

So yes while the responsorial psalm is the norm, there are other options.

 

[CB_Catholic]

AFAIK there is no such thing as the “continual psalm”. I think he may refer to the Gradual Response, which licitly may take the place of the responsorial psalm, even in the OF. The appropriate one to use is specified in the 1974 Graduale Romanum.

In the EF the Gradual was the choice for a sung Mass. In the OF, it is an option and in fact at the abbey where I attend Mass, it is the norm. One of the other options is the psalm given in the Graduale Simplex, a Gregorian chant gradual for the OF with simpler settings for less experienced choirs.

So yes while the responsorial psalm is the norm, there are other options.

Well, then, this makes more sense if he is talking about the Gradual. No wonder i couldn’t find any reference to a “continual” psalm, but there are references to the Gradual, as you said, being a substitute for the Responsorial which is the norm.