Different versions of the Bible

[rocketrob]

One book in particular that really helped me along was a book titled Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic by David Currie. Also, look for books at your library by Scott Hahn.

I also read the referenced book, and its very good. My favorite along the same lines was “Catholic & Christian” by Alan Schreck. It explains many of the tenets of the faith, and those most misunderstood, in a very compelling logical way using both Sacred Scripture and Tradition. It just states the facts in a non-argumentative manner. I highly recommend it!

rocketrob

 

[unacanta]

I did not know there was a Jewish “Bible” could you point one out? Particularly one with the same number of books. translating from what? did he get the new testament from the Jews? well that is interesting I was never good at acronyms are those Protestant Bibles?

blueletterbible.org/faq/canon.html#64
The Old Testament consists of thirty-nine books according to the Protestant reckoning but only twenty-four according to the Jewish reckoning. The books are the same; the difference is in the way they are divided.
Protestant Bible
The division of the Protestants’ Bible is as follows: seventeen historical books: Genesis-Esther: five poetical books Job-Song of Solomon: seventeen prophetical books: Isaiah-Malachi.
Hebrew Division
The Hebrew Bible numbers these as twenty-four: The Torah or law contains five books, Genesis-Deuteronomy; The Prophets contain eight books, Joshua, Judges, Samuel, Kings, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and the twelve minor prophets are grouped into one book; The Writings or Kethubim contain eleven books, Psalms, Proverbs, Song of Solomon, Ruth, Lamentations, Ecclesiastes, Esther, Daniel, Ezra-Nehemiah, and Chronicles.
The Hebrew Bible combined 1 and 2 Samuel, 1 and 2 Kings, and 1 and 2 Chronicles. The twelve minor prophets were combined into one book. Josephus numbered the books as twenty-two by attaching Ruth to Judges and Lamentations to Jeremiah.
Thus, the books are identical. The only difference is in the way they are divided.
Josephus also declared:
And how firmly we have given credit to those books of our own nation is evident by what we do; for during so many ages as have already passed, no one has been so bold as either to add anything to them or take anything from them, or to make any change in them-, but it becomes natural to all Jews, immediately and from their very birth, to esteem those books to contain divine doctrines, and to persist in them, and, if occasion be, willing to die for them. For it is no new thing for our captives, many of them in numbers, and frequently in time, to be seen to endure racks and deaths of all kinds upon the theatres, that they may not be obliged to say one word against our laws, and the records that contain them (Josephus, Ibid., p. 609).
Josephus states “no one has been so bold as either to add anything to them or take anything from them”. Clearly there was a canon which no books were added or taken.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Jamnia
Heinrich Graetz introduced the notion in 1871; based on Mishnaic and Talmudic sources, he concluded that there must have been a Council of Jamnia which had decided the Jewish canon sometime in the late 1st century. This became the prevailing scholarly consensus for much of the 20th century. However, from the 1960s onwards, based on the work of Jack P. Lewis, Sidney Z. Leiman, and others, this view came increasingly into question. In particular, later scholars noted that none of the sources actually mentioned books that had been withdrawn from a canon, and questioned the whole premise that the discussions were about canonicity at all, asserting that they

Clearly Jesus and the Apostles knew what cripture was,they used the words “It is written,” and “Scripture”, then usually taking the Pharisees to task.

The RCC canon had excluded the Hebrews, so the claim the councils had established it is rather incorrect. It is my understanding that the RCC later adopted the Eastern Orthodox Canon, so really the RCC can’t even claim credit for establishing the Canon which it uses. I will try to find the citation on the above.

Here is the issue

1. What was Luther’s objective?
2. Where, what, was Luther taught and by who?
3. From the Torah to 1500 where was the “Bible”?
4. From 33-1500 where was Luther’s religion?

A study of the Reformation will answer your question 1 and 2

Concerning 3 & 4.
3: Just as the Jews were entrusted with the Word of God (Rom 3:2), so the Apostles were entrusted with gospel. The “Bible” was with the Jews until Christ came, then the gospel was entrusted to the Apostles.

1. From 33-1500 the gospel was being distorted by a Teaching Magisterium which no longer held to Apostolic teaching by introducing false teachings (Purgatory, Papel Infalibility, Immaculate Conception, etc.). Of course, this is from the Protestant point of view and I am has been discussed many times.

Blessings,
Len

 

[Texas_Roofer]

Last I checked all of the apostles were Jews. So, yes, we did.

Were any of them Christians?

 

[Texas_Roofer]

…Hebrew Division
The Hebrew Bible numbers these as twenty-four: The Torah or law contains five books, Genesis-Deuteronomy; The Prophets contain eight books, Joshua, Judges, Samuel, Kings, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and the twelve minor prophets are grouped into one book; The Writings or Kethubim contain eleven books, Psalms, Proverbs, Song of Solomon, Ruth, Lamentations, Ecclesiastes, Esther, Daniel, Ezra-Nehemiah, and Chronicles…

'um the Torah vs the Hebrew Bible which is correct? The question was is there a Jewish “Bible”

1. From 33-1500 the gospel was being distorted by a Teaching Magisterium which no longer held to Apostolic teaching by introducing false teachings (Purgatory, Papel Infalibility, Immaculate Conception, etc.). Of course, this is from the Protestant point of view and I am has been discussed many times.

Blessings,
Len

So the Magisterium was present in 33?

 

[DarkMark]

unacanta,

1. Again, there was no “Jewish Bible”. There was no Jewish Bible in Christ time, not until 90AD do we come close to anything of a “canon of Scriptures [for Jews]”. Every Group of Jews in Jesus time had different understanding which OT books were Scriptures, so you need you tell us which group of Jews in Jesus time had the “Bible” you said.
2. You right, Jesus knew which was Scriptures and which was not, which is why He quoted from the books found in the Greek Version of the Scriptures, which is in our Bibles but not yours and Jews.
3. The Gospel was not being distorted by the Teaching Authority of the Church because the Church can not err! (Matthew 16:18).

The Apostle Paul call the Church the Pillar of Truth (1 Tim 3:15).

1. From the the fourth century, In the Councils of Rome 382 AD, Council of Hippo 392 AD, and Council of Carthage in 396 AD , , the Roman Church gave the list of books in the Canon, which includes the Deutrocaniocal books.

 

[unacanta]

unacanta,

1. Again, there was no “Jewish Bible”. There was no Jewish Bible in Christ time, not until 90AD do we come close to anything of a “canon of Scriptures [for Jews]”. Every Group of Jews in Jesus time had different understanding which OT books were Scriptures, so you need you tell us which group of Jews in Jesus time had the “Bible” you said.

Ok, the collection of “Scrolls” is which I am refering. There were certain Scrolls which were in the temple, read and considered scripture, There may have been groups which disputed which were scripture, however, considering the Parisees and Sadusies were the authorities and in power, nothing else was taught in the temple. To say “Every Group” is a gross overstatement.

1. You right, Jesus knew which was Scriptures and which was not, which is why He quoted from the books found in the Greek Version of the Scriptures, which is in our Bibles but not yours and Jews.

Jesus quoted from the “Scrolls” and scripture within the Hebrew tradtion which was in place. The fact is, these very same Hebrew Scrolls were translated into the Greek Septuagint. Jesus nor any Apostle ever quoted from the Apocrypha or considered them inspired scripture.

1. The Gospel was not being distorted by the Teaching Authority of the Church because the Church can not err! (Matthew 16:18).

The Apostle Paul call the Church the Pillar of Truth (1 Tim 3:15).

The passage (Mat16:18) simply states that upon the confession of Peter that Jesus is the Son of God is what He, will build His church. States nothing about Ecclesial Infallibility, Yes the Pillar of Truth, not the authority. The church is sub-servant to Scripture.

1. From the the fourth century, In the Councils of Rome 382 AD, Council of Hippo 392 AD, and Council of Carthage in 396 AD , , the Roman Church gave the list of books in the Canon, which includes the Deutrocaniocal books.

I am quoting from Eric Svendsen’s Book Evangelical Answers:

"The Catholic church did not first determine the canon. It was the Eastern Orthodox church that came up with the list of twenty-seven books first. The consensus by the Eastern church was decided in 367, and the twenty-seven books were included in Athanasius’ Eastern letter from Alexandria. (see Eric’s foot note 134 )

This decision was made twenty-six years before Hippo. The Western (Roman) church accepted a canon that did not include the book of Hebrews, but eventually followed the East in including all twenty-seven books. In other words, the Roman church relied upon the Eastern Orthodox church for here canon. Far from making an infallible decision,the Roman church at Hippo and Carthage, simply adopted the decision of the Eastern church. Therefore, the canon t hat we currently have is the work of the Eastern Orthodox church, which does not claim magisterial infallibility. Catholics must rely on the decision of the Eastern church and cannot claim to have determined the canon themselves. (see foot note

134 Eerdmans’ Handbook to the History of Christianity, 106. See Antanasius’ Letter in Philip Schaff, The Nicene and Post Nicene Fathers, vol IV (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1953), 551-52. It is also evident from this letter that Athanasisu and the Eastern chruch did not indlude the Apocrypha as part of the Old Testament canon.

End of quote.

Blessing,
Len

 

[inthecloud]

The Old Testament consists of thirty-nine books according to the Protestant reckoning but only twenty-four according to the Jewish reckoning. The books are the same; the difference is in the way they are divided.
Protestant Bible

Why Protestants say Jewish when they should say Pharisees?

Parisees and Sadusies were the authorities and in power, nothing else was taught in the temple. To say “Every Group” is a gross overstatement.

And as St Augustine reminded St Jerome in the Canon issue, they were Jesus enemies.

Jesus nor any Apostle ever quoted from the Apocrypha or considered them inspired scripture.

Modern Biblical scholarship have proven that false. Many text of the Gospels and Paul are clear references to Wisdom and Ben Sirach. Jesus even quoted the Book of Enoc!

I am quoting from Eric Svendsen’s Book Evangelical Answers:

"The Catholic church did not first determine the canon. It was the Eastern Orthodox church that came up with the list of twenty-seven books first. The consensus by the Eastern church was decided in 367, and the twenty-seven books were included in Athanasius’ Eastern letter from Alexandria. (see Eric’s foot note 134 )

Evangelicals authors lying, or at least telling half truths for Jesus again! There was no Eastern Orthodox Church them, the Eastern Churches and the Church or Rome were in comunion them. Please use secular sources instead. There are more reliable that both Catholic and Protestant apologists. And they often support the Catholic and EO position on the Canon.

The RCC canon had excluded the Hebrews, so the claim the councils had established it is rather incorrect. It is my understanding that the RCC later adopted the Eastern Orthodox Canon, so really the RCC can’t even claim credit for establishing the Canon which it uses. I will try to find the citation on the above

Hebrews and Revelations were in the Canon of Rome’s insistance, the Greeks did not want them and even them they dislike Revelations today. The main lobbist for Rome was St Augustine.
BTW Luther tried to take those books out of the Protestant Bible together with James epistle but was stopped by Melachton.
And Luther did add the word sola to the German Bible. Is a well known fact. It was corrected later.

And yes, Athanasios, Jerome and Melitus did not like the deuterocanonicals as part of the Canon but most people did like then in the canon, used them in sermons and the Bishops voted for their inclusion on the Christian Bible.

 

[unacanta]

Why Protestants say Jewish when they should say Pharisees?

I will not even dignify that question.

And as St Augustine reminded St Jerome in the Canon issue, they were Jesus enemies.

Did I say the Pharisees were not?

Modern Biblical scholarship have proven that false. Many text of the Gospels and Paul are clear references to Wisdom and Ben Sirach. Jesus even quoted the Book of Enoc!

So far I have not found any quotes.

Evangelicals authors lying, or at least telling half truths for Jesus again! There was no Eastern Orthodox Church them, the Eastern Churches and the Church or Rome were in comunion them. Please use secular sources instead. There are more reliable that both Catholic and Protestant apologists. And they often support the Catholic and EO position on the Canon.

Lying?? Half truths? Eric Svendsen has a tremendous amount of education and has studied way beyond what I suspect you have. His reputation as a scholar is well know in the academic world. A personal attack upon his integrity is totally uncalled for and unwarranted.

The sources I use have proven reliable and until someone can prove them wrong I will continue to do so. By all means debate the ideas, but to call someone a liar is way behond the civil respect that this board has always maintained.

I have high hopes that such behaviour will not be tolerated.

Regards.
Len

 

[garysibio]

So far I have not found any quotes.

Here’s a few for you:

Matthew 4:4 Wisdom 16:26
Matthew 4:15 1 Maccabees 5:15
Matthew 5:18 Baruch 4:1
Matthew 5:28 Sirach 9:8
Matthew 5:2ss Sirach 25:7-12
Matthew 5:4 Sirach 48:24
Matthew 6:7 Sirach 7:14
Matthew 6:9 Sirach 23:1, 4
Matthew 6:10 1 Maccabees 3:60
Matthew 6:12 Sirach 28:20
Matthew 6:13 Sirach 33:1
Matthew 6:20 Sirach 29:10s
Matthew 6:23 Sirach 14:10
Matthew 6:33 Wisdom 7:11
Matthew 7:12 Tobit 4:15
Matthew 7:12 Sirach 31:15
Matthew 7:16 Sirach 27:6
Matthew 8:11 Baruch 4:37
Matthew 8:21 Tobit 4:3
Matthew 9:36 Judith 11:19
Matthew 9:38 1 Maccabees 12:17
Matthew 10:16 Sirach 13:17
Matthew 11:14 Sirach 48:10
Matthew 11:22 Judith 16:17
Matthew 11:25 Tobit 7:17
Matthew 11:25 Sirach 51:1
Matthew 11:28 Sirach 24:19
Matthew 11:28 Sirach 51:23
Matthew 11:29 Sirach 6:24s
Matthew 11:29 Sirach 6:28s
Matthew 11:29 Sirach 51:26s
Matthew 12:4 2 Maccabees 10:3
Matthew 12:5 Sirach 40:15
Matthew 13:44 Sirach 20:30s
Matthew 16:18 Wisdom 16:13
Matthew 16:22 1 Maccabees 2:21
Matthew 16:27 Sirach 35:22
Matthew 17:11 Sirach 48:10
Matthew 18:10 Tobit 12:15
Matthew 20:2 Tobit 5:15
Matthew 22:13 Wisdom 17:2
Matthew 23:38 Tobit 14:4
Matthew 24:15 1 Maccabees 1:54
Matthew 24:15 2 Maccabees 8:17
Matthew 24:16 1 Maccabees 2:28
Matthew 25:35 Tobit 4:17
Matthew 25:36 Sirach 7:32-35
Matthew 26:38 Sirach 37:2
Matthew 27:24 Daniel 13:46
Matthew 27:43 Wisdom 2:13
Matthew 27:43 Wisdom 2:18-20

Mark 1:15 Tobit 14:5
Mark 4:5 Sirach 40:15
Mark 4:11 Wisdom 2:22
Mark 5:34 Judith 8:35
Mark 6:49 Wisdom 17:15
Mark 8:37 Sirach 26:14
Mark 9:31 Sirach 2:18
Mark 9:48 Judith 16:17
Mark 10:18 Sirach 4:1
Mark 14:34 Sirach 37:2
Mark 15:29 Wisdom 2:17s

Luke 1:17 Sirach 48:10
Luke 1:19 Tobit 12:15
Luke 1:42 Judith 13:18
Luke 1:52 Sirach 10:14
Luke 2:29 Tobit 11:9
Luke 2:37 Judith 8:6
Luke 6:35 Wisdom 15:1
Luke 7:22 Sirach 48:5
Luke 9:8 Sirach 48:10
Luke 10:17 Tobit 7:17
Luke 10:19 Sirach 11:19
Luke 10:21 Sirach 51:1
Luke 12:19 Tobit 7:10
Luke 12:20 Wisdom 15:8
Luke 13:25 Tobit 14:4
Luke 13:27 1 Maccabees 3:6
Luke 13:29 Baruch 4:37
Luke 14:13 Tobit 2:2
Luke 15:12 1 Maccabees 10:29 [30]
Luke 15:12 Tobit 3:17
Luke 18:7 Sirach 35:22
Luke 19:44 Wisdom 3:7
Luke 21:24 Tobit 14:5
Luke 21:24 Sirach 28:18
Luke 21:25 Wisdom 5:22
Luke 24:4 2 Maccabees 3:26
Luke 24:31 2 Maccabees 3:34
Luke 24:50 Sirach 50:20s
Luke 24:53 Sirach 50:22

John 1:3 Wisdom 9:1
John 3:8 Sirach 16:21
John 3:12 Wisdom 9:16
John 3:12 Wisdom 18:15s
John 3:13 Baruch 3:29
John 3:28 1 Maccabees 9:39
John 3:32 Tobit 4:6
John 4:9 Sirach 50:25s
John 4:48 Wisdom 8:8
John 5:18 Wisdom 2:16
John 6:35 Sirach 24:21
John 7:38 Sirach 24:40, 43[30s]
John 8:44 Wisdom 2:24
John 8:53 Sirach 44:19
John 10:20 Wisdom 5:4
John 10:22 1 Maccabees 4:59
John 14:15 Wisdom 6:18
John 15:9s Wisdom 3:9
John 17:3 Wisdom 15:3
John 20:22 Wisdom 15:11

see next message

 

[garysibio]

Acts 1:10 2 Maccabees 3:26
Acts 1:18 Wisdom 4:19
Acts 2:4 Sirach 48:12
Acts 2:11 Sirach 36:7
Acts 2:39 Sirach 24:32
Acts 4:24 Judith 9:12
Acts 5:2 2 Maccabees 4:32
Acts 5:12 1 Maccabees 12:6
Acts 5:21 2 Maccabees 1:10
Acts 5:39 2 Maccabees 7:19
Acts 9:1-29 2 Maccabees 3:24-40
Acts 9:2 1 Maccabees 15:21
Acts 9:7 Wisdom 18:1
Acts 10:2 Tobit 12:8
Acts 10:22 1 Maccabees 10:25
Acts 10:22 1 Maccabees 11:30, 33 etc.
Acts 10:26 Wisdom 7:1
Acts 10:30 2 Maccabees 11:8
Acts 10:34 Sirach 35:12s
Acts 10:36 Wisdom 6:7
Acts 10:36 Wisdom 8:3 etc.
Acts 11:18 Wisdom 12:19
Acts 12:5 Judith 4:9
Acts 12:10 Sirach 19:26
Acts 12:23 Judith 16:17
Acts 12:23 Sirach 48:21
Acts 12:23 1 Maccabees 7:41
Acts 12:23 2 Maccabees 9:9
Acts 13:10 Sirach 1:30
Acts 13:17 Wisdom 19:10
Acts 14:14 Judith 14:16s
Acts 14:15 Wisdom 7:3
Acts 15:4 Judith 8:26
Acts 16:14 2 Maccabees 1:4
Acts 17:23 Wisdom 14:20
Acts 17:23 Wisdom 15:17
Acts 17:24, 25 Wisdom 9:1
Acts 17:24 Tobit 7:17
Acts 17:24 Wisdom 9:9
Acts 17:26 Wisdom 7:18
Acts 17:27 Wisdom 13:6
Acts 17:29 Wisdom 13:10
Acts 17:30 Sirach 28:7
Acts 19:27 Wisdom 3:17
Acts 19:28 Daniel 14:18, 41
Acts 20:26 Daniel 13:46
Acts 20:32 Wisdom 5:5
Acts 20:35 Sirach 4:31
Acts 21:26 1 Maccabees 3:49
Acts 22.9 Wisdom 18.1
Acts 24:2 2 Maccabees 4:6
Acts 26:18 Wisdom 5:5
Acts 26:25 Judith 10:13

Romans 1:19-32 Wisdom 13-15
Romans 1:21 Wisdom 13:1
Romans 1:23 Wisdom 11:15
Romans 1:23 Wisdom 12:24
Romans 1:28 2 Maccabees 6:4
Romans 2:4 Wisdom 11:23
Romans 2:11 Sirach 35:12s
Romans 2:15 Wisdom 17:11
Romans 4:13 Sirach 44:21
Romans 4:17 Sirach 44:19
Romans 5:5 Sirach 18:11
Romans 5:12 Wisdom 2:24
Romans 9:4 Sirach 44:12
Romans 9:4 2 Maccabees 6:23
Romans 9:19 Wisdom 12:12
Romans 9:21 Wisdom 15:7
Romans 9:31 Sirach 27:8
Romans 9:31 Wisdom 2:11
Romans 10.7 Wisdom 16.13
Romans 10:6 Baruch 3:29
Romans 11:4 2 Maccabees 2:4
Romans 11:15 Sirach 10:20s
Romans 11:33 Wisdom 17:1
Romans 12:15 Sirach 7:34
Romans 13:1 Sirach 4:27
Romans 13:1 Wisdom 6:3s
Romans 13.10 Wisdom 6.18
Romans 15:4 1 Maccabees 12:9
Romans 15:8 Sirach 36:20

1 Corinthians 1:24 Wisdom 7:24s
1 Corinthians 2:16 Wisdom 9:13
1 Corinthians 2:9 Sirach 1:10
1 Corinthians 4:13 Tobit 5:19
1 Corinthians 4:14 Wisdom 11:10
1 Corinthians 6:2 Wisdom 3:8
1 Corinthians 6:12 Sirach 37:28
1 Corinthians 6:13 Sirach 36:18
1 Corinthians 6:18 Sirach 23:17
1 Corinthians 7:19 Sirach 32:23
1 Corinthians 9:19 Sirach 6:19
1 Corinthians 9:25 Wisdom 4:2
1 Corinthians 10:1 Wisdom 19:7s
1 Corinthians 10:20 Baruch 4:7
1 Corinthians 10:23 Sirach 37:28
1 Corinthians 11:7 Sirach 17:3
1 Corinthians 11:7 Wisdom 2:23
1 Corinthians 11:24 Wisdom 16:6
1 Corinthians 15:29 2 Maccabees 12:43s
1 Corinthians 15:32 Wisdom 2:5s
1 Corinthians 15:34 Wisdom 13:1

2 Corinthians 5:1, 4 Wisdom 9:15
2 Corinthians 12:12 Wisdom 10:16

Galatians 2:6 Sirach 35:13
Galatians 4:4 Tobit 14:5
Galatians 6:1 Wisdom 17:17

Ephesians 1:6 Sirach 45:1
Ephesians 1:6 Sirach 46:13
Ephesians 1:17 Wisdom 7:7
Ephesians 4:14 Sirach 5:9
Ephesians 4:24 Wisdom 9:3
Ephesians 6:12 Wisdom 5:17
Ephesians 6:14 Wisdom 5:18
Ephesians 6:16 Wisdom 5:19, 21

Philippians 4:5 Wisdom 2:19
Philippians 4:13 Wisdom 7:23
Philippians 4:18 Sirach 35:6

Colossians 2:3 Sirach 1:24s

1 Thessalonians 3:11 Judith 12:8
1 Thessalonians 4:6 Sirach 5:3
1 Thessalonians 4:13 Wisdom 3:18
1 Thessalonians 5:1 Wisdom 8:8
1 Thessalonians 5:2 Wisdom 18:14s
1 Thessalonians 5:3 Wisdom 17:14
1 Thessalonians 5:8 Wisdom 5:18

2 Thessalonians 2:1 2 Maccabees 2:7

continued in next message

 

[garysibio]

1 Timothy 1:17 Tobit 13:7, 11
1 Timothy 2:2 2 Maccabees 3:11
1 Timothy 2:2 Baruch 1:11s
1 Timothy 6:15 Sirach 46:5
1 Timothy 6:15 2 Maccabees 12:15
1 Timothy 6:15 2 Maccabees 13:4

2 Timothy 2:19 Sirach 17:26
2 Timothy 2:19 Sirach 23:10v1
2 Timothy 2:19 Sirach 35:3
2 Timothy 4:8 Wisdom 5:16
2 Timothy 4:17 1 Maccabees 2:60

Titus 2:11 2 Maccabees 3:30
Titus 3:4 Wisdom 1:6

Hebrews 1:3 Wisdom 7:25s
Hebrews 2:5 Sirach 17:17
Hebrews 4.12 Wisdom 18.15s
Hebrews 4:12 Wisdom 7:22-30
Hebrews 5:6 1 Maccabees 14:41
Hebrews 7:22 Sirach 29:14ss
Hebrews 11:5 Sirach 44:16
Hebrews 11:5 Wisdom 4:10
Hebrews 11:6 Wisdom 10:17
Hebrews 11.10 Wisdom 13.1
Hebrews 11:10 2 Maccabees 4:1
Hebrews 11:17 1 Maccabees 2:52
Hebrews 11:17 Sirach 44:20
Hebrews 11:27 Sirach 2:2
Hebrews 11:28 Wisdom 18:25
Hebrews 11:35 2 Maccabees 6:18-7:42
Hebrews 12:4 2 Maccabees 13:14
Hebrews 12:9 2 Maccabees 3:24
Hebrews 12:12 Sirach 25:23
Hebrews 12:17 Wisdom 12:10
Hebrews 12:21 1 Maccabees 13:2
Hebrews 13:7 Sirach 33:19
Hebrews 13:7 Wisdom 2:17

James 1:1 2 Maccabees 1:27
James 1:13 Sirach 15:11-20
James 1:19 Sirach 5:11
James 1:2 Sirach 2:1
James 1:2 Wisdom 3:4s
James 1:21 Sirach 3:17
James 2:13 Tobit 4:10
James 2:23 Wisdom 7:27
James 3:2 Sirach 14:1
James 3:6 Sirach 5:13
James 3:9 Sirach 23:1, 4
James 3:10 Sirach 5:13
James 3:10 Sirach 28:12
James 3:13 Sirach 3:17
James 4:2 1 Maccabees 8:16
James 4:11 Wisdom 1:11
James 5:3 Judith 16:17
James 5:3 Sirach 29:10
James 5:4 Tobit 4:14
James 5:6 Wisdom 2:10
James 5:6 Wisdom 2:12
James 5:6 Wisdom 2:19

1 Peter 1:3 Sirach 16:12
1 Peter 1:7 Sirach 2:5
1 Peter 2:25 Wisdom 1:6
1 Peter 4:19 2 Maccabees 1:24 etc.
1 Peter 5:7 Wisdom 12:13

2 Peter 2:2 Wisdom 5:6
2 Peter 2:7 Wisdom 10:6
2 Peter 3:9 Sirach 35:19
2 Peter 3:18 Sirach 18:10

1 John 5:21 Baruch 5:72

Jude 13 Wisdom 14:1

Revelation 1:18 Sirach 18:1
Revelation 2:10 2 Maccabees 13:14
Revelation 2:12 Wisdom 18:16 [15]
Revelation 2:17 2 Maccabees 2:4-8
Revelation 4:11 Sirach 18:1
Revelation 4:11 Wisdom 1:14
Revelation 5:7 Sirach 1:8
Revelation 7:9 2 Maccabees 10:7
Revelation 8:1 Wisdom 18:14
Revelation 8:2 Tobit 12:15
Revelation 8:3 Tobit 12:12
Revelation 8:7 Sirach 39:29
Revelation 8:7 Wisdom 16:22
Revelation 9:3 Wisdom 16:9
Revelation 9:4 Sirach 44:18 etc.
Revelation 11:19 2 Maccabees 2:4-8
Revelation 17:14 2 Maccabees 13:4
Revelation 18:2 Baruch 4:35
Revelation 19:1 Tobit 13:18
Revelation 19:11 2 Maccabees 3:25
Revelation 19:11 2 Maccabees 11:8
Revelation 19:16 2 Maccabees 13:4
Revelation 20:12s Sirach 16:12
Revelation 21:19s Tobit 13:17

That enough?

Gary

 

[rocketrob]

In his book, “Unabridged Christianity,” Fr. Mario P. Romero quotes six different ‘scholarly’ sources that support the fact that the canonicity of the ‘deuterocanonical books’ had been established for centuries…up until they were challenged during the reformation. One of the more neutral sources quoted is “The New Oxford Annotated Bible (Revised Standard Version)” which states:

“During the early Christian centuries most Greek and Latin Church Fathers…quoted passages from the [deuterocanonical books] as ‘Scripture,’ ‘divine Scripture,’ ‘inspired’ and the like.
…In the controversies that arose at the time of the Reformation, Protestant leaders soon recognized the need to distinguish between books that were authoritative for the establishment of doctrine and those that were not. Thus, disputes over the doctrines of Purgatory and of the efficacy of prayers and Masses for the dead inevitably involved discussion concerning the authority of 2 Maccabees, which contains what was held to be scriptural warrant for them [cf. 2 Macc 12:38-46].”

Regarding the argument that the ‘deuterocanonical books’ are not directly quoted in the New Testament, Fr. Romero counters this “common objection” by stating, “A number of Old Testament books accepted by Protestants and Catholics alike are not directly quoted in the New Testament: (e.g., Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther, Ecclesiastes, Song of Songs.)” He then quotes “The New Oxford Annotated Bible” again:

“…everal New Testament writers make occasional allusions to one or more [deuterocanonical] books. For example, what seem to be literary echoes from Wisdom are present in Paul’s Letter to the Romans (compare Rom. 1.20-29 with Wis 13.5,8; 14.24,27; and Rom. 9.20-23 with Wis. 12.12,20; 15.7) and in his correspondence with the Corinthians (compare 2 Cor. 5.1,4 with Wis. 9.15). The short Letter of James, a typical bit of ‘wisdom literature’ in the New Testament, contains allusions no only to the Old Testament book of Proverbs, but to gnomic sayings in Sirach as well (compare Jas. 1.19 with Sir. 5.11; and Jas. 1.13 with Sir. 15.11-12).”

rocketrob

 

[DarkMark]

unacanta,

You are greatly mistaken!

1. Both Jesus and the Apostles quoted from the 7 books found in our Bibles but are removed by your Bible and Jews Canon. I do not need to repost the Scriptures, since graysibio has did a great Job! The available scholarship data proves you wrong. Furthermore, Christians from the first centuries and on believed these books were inspired, although they did disagree in there “canon” status. Even Renowed Protestant Scholar J.N.D Kelly in His book “Early Christian Doctrines” admit this (page 53).
2. Concerning Athanasius, he did accept them as Inspired. When we read the Early Fathers writings, we must keep in mind that “canon” had different meanings during the Fathers age. In some aspect, “canon” simply means books that are not read in the Church, but are still consider “Inspired”.

St. Athanasius says this about the Deuterocanonicals:

But for greater exactness I add this also, writing of necessity; that there are other books besides these not indeed included in the Canon [that which is not read in the Church but does not necessarily mean "uninspired"] , but appointed by the Fathers to be read by those who newly join us, and who wish for instruction in the word of godliness. The Wisdom of Solomon, and the Wisdom of Sirach, and Esther, and Judith, and Tobit, and that which is called the Teaching of the Apostles, and the Shepherd. But the former, my brethren, are included in the Canon, the latter being [merely] read... Athanasius the Great: Part of Festal Letter 39 (c. 367 A.D.)[2]

“[T]he sacred writers to whom the Son has revealed Him, have given us a certain image from things visible, saying, ‘Who is the brightness of His glory, and the Expression of His Person;’ [Heb 1:3] and again, ‘For with Thee is the well of life, and in Thy light shall we see lights;’ [Ps 36:9] and when the Word chides Israel, He says, ‘Thou hast forsaken the Fountain of wisdom;’ [Baruch 3:12] and this Fountain it is which says, ‘They have forsaken Me the Fountain of living waters’ [Jer 2:13]” [3] Athanasius the Great: Defense of the Nicene Faith,2 (A.D. 351), in NPNF2, IV:158.

“And where the sacred writers say, Who exists before the ages,’ and 'By whom He made the ages,’ [Heb 1:2] they thereby as clearly preach the eternal and everlasting being of the Son, even while they are designating God Himself. Thus, if Isaiah says, 'The Everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth;’ [Is 40:28] and Susanna said, ‘O Everlasting God;’ [Daniel 13:42-Susanna] and Baruch wrote, ‘I will cry unto the Everlasting in my days,’ and shortly after, ‘My hope is in the Everlasting, that He will save you, and joy is come unto me from the Holy One;’ [Baruch 4:20,22]” Athanasius the Great: Discourses Against the Arians, 1:4 (A.D. 362), in NPNF2, IV:313

Daniel said to Astyages, ‘I do not worship idols made with hands, but the Living God, who hath created the heaven and the earth, and hath sovereignty over all flesh;’ [Daniel 14:5-Bel & the Dragon]" Athanasius the Great: Discourses Against the Arians, 3:30 (A.D. 362),in NPNF2, IV:410.

The Spirit also, who is in him, commands, saying, ‘Offer unto God the sacrifice of praise, and pay to the Lord thy vows. Offer the sacrifice of righteousness, and put your trust in the Lord (Sir. 18:17).’) [Athanasius the Great: Letter 19, 5 (A.D. 333), in NPNF2, IV:546

Other quotes can be given. Unless you have some quotes from Athanasius that said these books were not inspired, then post them, but How can you since He alreadly said that these books were inspired and use them to prove doctrine?

1. The Sacred Scriptures that Jesus and the Apostles read from were the Septuagint version of Scripture, includes the Deuterocanonical books. From this we can see why the Early Christians accepted them (the Apostles gave them the Septuagint without any objections to these books).
2. Concerning Mat16:18, Jesus told Peter “Thou are Peter [Rock] and upon this [Rock] I shall build my Church”. Jesus mostly spoke Aramaic, and Peter is indeed “Rock” in Aramaic. Jesus change His name in John 1:42 into Chephas [Rock] (changing name in the OT means the person has a change of role, such Abram–>Abraham). Many Protestants said that In Greek there is a difference of words, but this is not the point. In fact, many Greek scholars—even non-Catholic ones—admit, the words petros and petra were synonyms in first century Greek. 1 Tim 2:16 proves that the Church is the pillar of Truth, nothing is said that Scriptures alone is the truth. The Truth is contained in both Scriptures+Tradition, which the Church holds according to Paul.

 

[unacanta]

Here’s a few for you:

Matthew 4:4 Wisdom 16:26
NASB-MAT4:4
But He answered and said, "It is written, ‘MAN SHALL NOT LIVE ON BREAD ALONE, BUT ON EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDS OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD.’

WIS:16:26
26 That thy children, O Lord, whom thou lovedst, might know that it is not the growing of fruits that nourisheth men, but thy word preserveth them that believe in thee.

The quote is from Det 8:3 …MAN SHALL NOT LIVE ON BREAD ALONE…

Jesus did not quote Wis16:26 but rather Det 8:3​

Matthew 4:15 1 Maccabees 5:15

NASB-MAT4:15
THE LAND OF ZEBULUN AND THE LAND OF NAPHTALI, BY THE WAY OF THE SEA, BEYOND THE JORDAN, GALILEE OF THE GENTILES

1MAC5:15 15 Saying, that they of Ptolemais, and of Tyre, and of Sidon, were assembled against them, and all Galilee is filled with strangers, in order to consume us.

The quote in Mat4:15 is from Isa 1:9 not 1MAC5:15​

Matthew 5:18 Baruch 4:1

NASB-MAT5:18"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

bar4:1 This is the book of the commandments of God, and the law, that is for ever: all they that keep it, shall come to life: but they that have forsaken it, to death.

I don’t see anything here that is even close.

Sorry, Jesus is not quoting Bar4:1 either​

Matthew 5:28 Sirach 9:8

NASB-MAT5:28 but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

SIR 9:8 Turn away thy face from a woman dressed up, and gaze not about upon another’s beauty.

Again, there is not a quote.​

I have to admit though, since I have never seen nor looked at the DOUAY-RHEIMS bible, it is very interesting. I will use this link for further study. I took the quotes from the following site:
newadvent.org/bible/sir009.htm

The NASB is from the New American Standard Bible.

I assume that the quotes I have given for the three are valid. Of course, if they are not I am sure some one will be sure to correct me.

I appreciate the very long list that was given. I only checked the first three and will check no more. Surely if the first three are not quoted by Jesus or an Apostle, why would anyone continue to search.

So far the quotes of scritpture which Jesus and the Apositles use are not from any of the Apocrypha as I had origninally stated.

Again, iron sharpens iron, always a pleasure to discuss ideas on the board. I have to admit, I am always challenged and thankful we live in a society which can have open discussions such as these.

Blessings,
Len

Matthew 5:2ss Sirach 25:7-12
Matthew 5:4 Sirach 48:24
Matthew 6:7 Sirach 7:14
Matthew 6:9 Sirach 23:1, 4
Matthew 6:10 1 Maccabees 3:60
Matthew 6:12 Sirach 28:20
Matthew 6:13 Sirach 33:1
Matthew 6:20 Sirach 29:10s
Matthew 6:23 Sirach 14:10
Matthew 6:33 Wisdom 7:11
Matthew 7:12 Tobit 4:15
Matthew 7:12 Sirach 31:15
Matthew 7:16 Sirach 27:6
Matthew 8:11 Baruch 4:37
Matthew 8:21 Tobit 4:3
Matthew 9:36 Judith 11:19
Matthew 9:38 1 Maccabees 12:17
Matthew 10:16 Sirach 13:17
Matthew 11:14 Sirach 48:10
Matthew 11:22 Judith 16:17
Matthew 11:25 Tobit 7:17
Matthew 11:25 Sirach 51:1
Matthew 11:28 Sirach 24:19
Matthew 11:28 Sirach 51:23
Matthew 11:29 Sirach 6:24s
Matthew 11:29 Sirach 6:28s
Matthew 11:29 Sirach 51:26s
Matthew 12:4 2 Maccabees 10:3
Matthew 12:5 Sirach 40:15
Matthew 13:44 Sirach 20:30s
Matthew 16:18 Wisdom 16:13
Matthew 16:22 1 Maccabees 2:21
Matthew 16:27 Sirach 35:22
Matthew 17:11 Sirach 48:10
Matthew 18:10 Tobit 12:15
Matthew 20:2 Tobit 5:15
Matthew 22:13 Wisdom 17:2
Matthew 23:38 Tobit 14:4
Matthew 24:15 1 Maccabees 1:54
Matthew 24:15 2 Maccabees 8:17
Matthew 24:16 1 Maccabees 2:28
Matthew 25:35 Tobit 4:17
Matthew 25:36 Sirach 7:32-35
Matthew 26:38 Sirach 37:2
Matthew 27:24 Daniel 13:46
Matthew 27:43 Wisdom 2:13
Matthew 27:43 Wisdom 2:18-20

Mark 1:15 Tobit 14:5
Mark 4:5 Sirach 40:15
Mark 4:11 Wisdom 2:22
Mark 5:34 Judith 8:35
Mark 6:49 Wisdom 17:15
Mark 8:37 Sirach 26:14
Mark 9:31 Sirach 2:18
Mark 9:48 Judith 16:17
Mark 10:18 Sirach 4:1
Mark 14:34 Sirach 37:2
Mark 15:29 Wisdom 2:17s

Luke 1:17 Sirach 48:10
Luke 1:19 Tobit 12:15
Luke 1:42 Judith 13:18
Luke 1:52 Sirach 10:14
Luke 2:29 Tobit 11:9
Luke 2:37 Judith 8:6
Luke 6:35 Wisdom 15:1
Luke 7:22 Sirach 48:5
Luke 9:8 Sirach 48:10
Luke 10:17 Tobit 7:17
Luke 10:19 Sirach 11:19
Luke 10:21 Sirach 51:1
Luke 12:19 Tobit 7:10
Luke 12:20 Wisdom 15:8
Luke 13:25 Tobit 14:4
Luke 13:27 1 Maccabees 3:6
Luke 13:29 Baruch 4:37
Luke 14:13 Tobit 2:2
Luke 15:12 1 Maccabees 10:29 [30]
Luke 15:12 Tobit 3:17
Luke 18:7 Sirach 35:22
Luke 19:44 Wisdom 3:7
Luke 21:24 Tobit 14:5
Luke 21:24 Sirach 28:18
Luke 21:25 Wisdom 5:22
Luke 24:4 2 Maccabees 3:26
Luke 24:31 2 Maccabees 3:34
Luke 24:50 Sirach 50:20s
Luke 24:53 Sirach 50:22

John 1:3 Wisdom 9:1
John 3:8 Sirach 16:21
John 3:12 Wisdom 9:16
John 3:12 Wisdom 18:15s
John 3:13 Baruch 3:29
John 3:28 1 Maccabees 9:39
John 3:32 Tobit 4:6
John 4:9 Sirach 50:25s
John 4:48 Wisdom 8:8
John 5:18 Wisdom 2:16
John 6:35 Sirach 24:21
John 7:38 Sirach 24:40, 43[30s]
John 8:44 Wisdom 2:24
John 8:53 Sirach 44:19
John 10:20 Wisdom 5:4
John 10:22 1 Maccabees 4:59
John 14:15 Wisdom 6:18
John 15:9s Wisdom 3:9
John 17:3 Wisdom 15:3
John 20:22 Wisdom 15:11

see next message

 

[DarkMark]

unacanta,

The fact remains. Both Jesus and the Apostles either quoted directly or simply allude to the Deutrocaniocal books. For example, check James 1:19 with Sirach 5:11. Saint James was alluding to this book to teach a lesson.

Tobit 4:15: And what you hate, do not do to any one.

Jesus says: Matt 7:12 So whatever you wish that men would do to you, do so to them; for this is the law and the prophets.

This is the inverse of Tobit. But notice that he says that this is the law and the prophets!!! Where in the Protocanonicals is that mentioned? It is not, but is a clear reference to Tobit.

Here is Romans 1:18-23:

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and wickedness of men who by their wickedness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse; 21 for although they knew God they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking and their senseless minds were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man or birds or animals or reptiles.

Now here is Wisdom 13:1-9:

For all men who were ignorant of God were foolish by nature; and they were unable from the good things that are seen to know him who exists, nor did they recognize the craftsman while paying heed to his works; 2: but they supposed that either fire or wind or swift air, or the circle of the stars, or turbulent water, or the luminaries of heaven were the gods that rule the world. 3: If through delight in the beauty of these things men assumed them to be gods, let them know how much better than these is their Lord, for the author of beauty created them. 4: And if men were amazed at their power and working, let them perceive from them how much more powerful is he who formed them. 5: For from the greatness and beauty of created things comes a corresponding perception of their Creator. 6: Yet these men are little to be blamed, for perhaps they go astray while seeking God and desiring to find him. 7: For as they live among his works they keep searching, and they trust in what they see, because the things that are seen are beautiful. 8: Yet again, not even they are to be excused; 9: for if they had the power to know so much that they could investigate the world, how did they fail to find sooner the Lord of these things?

About 98% identical!

No one can denied that Jesus and the Apostle use these books.

 

[DarkMark]

#2. Of course one can argue that “quotation does not mean Scripture” since Jesus and the Apostles never quoted nor allude to the following books of the OT: Song of Songs, Ecclesiastes, Esther, Obadiah, Zephaniah, Judges, 1 Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah, Lamentations and Nahum. But we all consider these books inspired regardless if Jesus and the Apostles never quoted from it or allude to it. But there is no distinction made by Christ or the Apostles between the deuterocanonical books and the rest of the Old Testament, for which they quoted from.

The constant teaching of the Early Church was that these books were Scriptures. Christians in the Early Christian Era (1st-8th Century) accepted them as Scriptures. There is no reason to reject the deuterocanonical books.

 

[unacanta]

unacanta,

The fact remains. Both Jesus and the Apostles either quoted directly or simply allude to the Deutrocaniocal books. For example, check James 1:19 with Sirach 5:11. Saint James was alluding to this book to teach a lesson.

JM1:19 This you know, my beloved brethren But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger;

SIR5:11 Winnow not with every wind, and go not into every way: for so is every sinner proved by a double tongue.

Again, we see James not quoting. James does not say “It is written” nor “Did you never read in the Scriptures” or even “but this has taken place to fulfill the Scriptures”. When the Jesus or the Apostles rebuked or taught they used known Scripture, inspired by the God.

Don’t get me wrong, some of the Fathers did teach that Apocrypha were good to read and edifying, but not that they were inspired. Inspired in the manner that they were God Breathed. Yes, and some did. The problem is there was not a concensus.

There is tremendous difference between some vague allusion that might be or possible connection with some other book and a statement where Jesus uses Scripture to rebuke those who were denying Him.

Tobit 4:15: And what you hate, do not do to any one.

Jesus says: Matt 7:12 So whatever you wish that men would do to you, do so to them; for this is the law and the prophets.

This is the inverse of Tobit. But notice that he says that this is the law and the prophets!!! Where in the Protocanonicals is that mentioned? It is not, but is a clear reference to Tobit.

TOB4:15 If any man hath done any work for thee, immediately pay him his hire, and let not the wages of thy hired servant stay with thee at all.

MAT 7:12"In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets

Again, we see vs 15 of Tobit instructing us to pay for work that is done.

Jesus teaches in Mat vs 12 we are to treat folks as we would be treated. Granted paying promptly for work done is in line with Jesus’ teaching. Jesus does not say, It is written or this has taken place to fulfill Scripture placing what ever in Tobit as God Breathed scripture.

Here is Romans 1:18-23:

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and wickedness of men who by their wickedness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse; 21 for although they knew God they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking and their senseless minds were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man or birds or animals or reptiles.

Now here is Wisdom 13:1-9:

For all men who were ignorant of God were foolish by nature; and they were unable from the good things that are seen to know him who exists, nor did they recognize the craftsman while paying heed to his works; 2: but they supposed that either fire or wind or swift air, or the circle of the stars, or turbulent water, or the luminaries of heaven were the gods that rule the world. 3: If through delight in the beauty of these things men assumed them to be gods, let them know how much better than these is their Lord, for the author of beauty created them. 4: And if men were amazed at their power and working, let them perceive from them how much more powerful is he who formed them. 5: For from the greatness and beauty of created things comes a corresponding perception of their Creator. 6: Yet these men are little to be blamed, for perhaps they go astray while seeking God and desiring to find him. 7: For as they live among his works they keep searching, and they trust in what they see, because the things that are seen are beautiful. 8: Yet again, not even they are to be excused; 9: for if they had the power to know so much that they could investigate the world, how did they fail to find sooner the Lord of these things?

About 98% identical!

No one can denied that Jesus and the Apostle use these books.

98% identical??

The point here is did Jesus say for example:

It is written “for if they had the power to know so much that they could investigate the world, how did they fail to find sooner the Lord of these things” (vs9)

No He did not. Again just because the idea or a section might in some way support a teaching does not mean that book was Scripture.

Did Jesus say"Have you not even read this Scripture:’ THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED,THIS BECAME THE CHIEF CORNER STONE"

When Jesus says the above we know the verse is inspired because he calls it Scripture.

 

[DarkMark]

**

JM1:19 This you know, my beloved brethren But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger;

SIR5:11 Winnow not with every wind, and go not into every way: for so is every sinner proved by a double tongue.

Again, we see James not quoting. James does not say “It is written” nor “Did you never read in the Scriptures” or even “but this has taken place to fulfill the Scriptures”. When the Jesus or the Apostles rebuked or taught they used known Scripture, inspired by the God.

Don’t get me wrong, some of the Fathers did teach that Apocrypha were good to read and edifying, but not that they were inspired. Inspired in the manner that they were God Breathed. Yes, and some did. The problem is there was not a concensus.

There is tremendous difference between some vague allusion that might be or possible connection with some other book and a statement where Jesus uses Scripture to rebuke those who were denying Him.

1st) James did not have to say “It is written”. He simply allude to it. Jesus and the Apostles never quoted nor allude to the following books of the OT: Song of Songs, Ecclesiastes, Esther, Obadiah, Zephaniah, Judges, 1 Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah, Lamentations and Nahum. This does not mean that these books are not inspired either. The method that Protestants use: “unless Jesus and the Apostles quote from this book it is not Scripture” is fallacy. Jesus never used these books to rebuke doctrine, but this does not mean that they are not inspired. Let say that Jesus and the Apostles never quoted or allude to these books (Tobit, Judith, etc). It will not make a difference!

If this was the case, you will have 28 books instead of 39 books in the OT.

2nd) The Fathers of the Church taught that they were inspired by God. Many Fathers, including Jerome, Augustine, and others use them to prove doctrine. Most Fathers said that they were not part of Canon, but like I said “canon” had different meanings in the Fathers age (“canon” usually means books that are not read in the Church but are still consider Scripture). Renowed Protestant Scholar J.N.D in His book “Early Christian doctrines” refers to the fact that these books was always accepted by the Early Church (page 53). I have not discovered any Fathers accepted by the Church who rejected that these books were inspired by God. I have study the Fathers for numerous years, and none made such statement.

The fact is that Jesus and the Apostle did in fact either quote from these books or simply allude to them. Hebrews 11:35 refers unmistakably to 2 Maccabees 7. No other OT text describes what Hebrews 11:35 refers to.

Sirach 5:11: “Be quick to hear, and be deliberate in answering.” The same thing that James said.

Sirach 28:2: “Forgive your neighbor the wrong he has done, and then your sins will be pardoned when you pray.” Jesus also alluded to this passage (Matt 6:14: For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; 15 but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.)

The fact is that the constant teaching of the Early Church and the Authority that Christ gave His Church always regarded these books inspired.**

 

[rocketrob]

In the last several posts, there appears to be some unnecessary confusion due to comparing verses from older translations that do not perfectly align with those from newer translations. The correct verses to be comparing are as follows:

For the case of James vs. Sirach:

From the Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition

James 1:19 - “Know this, my beloved brethren. Let every man be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow to anger.”

Sirach 5:11 - “Be quick to hear, and be deliberate in answering.”

From the Douay-Rheims Version:

James 1:19 - “You know, my dearest brethren. And let every man be swift to hear, but slow to speak, and slow to anger.”

Ecclesiasticus (Sirach) 5:13 - “Be meek to hear the word, that thou mayst understand: and return a true answer with wisdom.”

For the case of Matthew vs. Tobit:

From the Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition

Matthew 7:12 - “So whatever you wish that men would do to you, do so to them; for this is the law and the prophets.” (See also Luke 6:31).

Tobit 4:15 - “And what you hate, do not do to any one…”

From the Douay-Rheims Version:

Matthew 7:12 - “All things therefore whatsoever you would that men should do to you, do you also to them. For this is the law and the prophets.” (See also Luke 6:31).

Tobias (Tobit) 4:16 - “See thou never do to another what thou wouldst hate to have done to thee by another.”

Once the correct verses are being compared in the various bible versions, the similarities are much more evident.

Sincerely,
rocketrob

 

[DarkMark]

In the last several posts, there appears to be some unnecessary confusion due to comparing verses from older translations that do not perfectly align with those from newer translations. The correct verses to be comparing are as follows:

For the case of James vs. Sirach:

From the Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition

James 1:19 - “Know this, my beloved brethren. Let every man be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow to anger.”

Sirach 5:11 - “Be quick to hear, and be deliberate in answering.”

From the Douay-Rheims Version:

James 1:19 - “You know, my dearest brethren. And let every man be swift to hear, but slow to speak, and slow to anger.”

Ecclesiasticus (Sirach) 5:13 - “Be meek to hear the word, that thou mayst understand: and return a true answer with wisdom.”

For the case of Matthew vs. Tobit:

From the Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition

Matthew 7:12 - “So whatever you wish that men would do to you, do so to them; for this is the law and the prophets.” (See also Luke 6:31).

Tobit 4:15 - “And what you hate, do not do to any one…”

From the Douay-Rheims Version:

Matthew 7:12 - “All things therefore whatsoever you would that men should do to you, do you also to them. For this is the law and the prophets.” (See also Luke 6:31).

Tobias (Tobit) 4:16 - “See thou never do to another what thou wouldst hate to have done to thee by another.”

Once the correct verses are being compared in the various bible versions, the similarities are much more evident.

Sincerely,
rocketrob

Yes, I think this is what causing the confusing. Unacanta is using the douay Bible, a good translation, but this is what causing the confusions. The numbering of verses in the Douay Bible is sometimes a little different from other Bibles (take the case with Psalms)

Once the correct verses is compared, one can easily seen that both Jesus and the Apostles alluded to these books.