Difficult Bible passages

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“He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of al creation” -Colosians 1:15

Doesn’t this imply that Jesus was created, and was not eternal?

"Now Noah, a man of the soil, was the first to plant a vineyard. When he drank some of the wine, he became drunl and lay naked inside his tent. Ham, the father of Canaan, saw his father’s nakedness, and he told his two brothers outside about it. Shem and Japheth, however, took a robe, and holding it backs, they walked backwards and covered their father’s nakedness; since their faces were the other way, they did not see their father’s nakedness. Whe Noah woke up from his drunkeness and learned what his youngest son had done to him he said 'Cursed by Canaan! The lowest of slaves he shall be to his brothers. He also said “Blessed be the Lord, the God of Shem! Let Canaan be his slave. May God expand Japheth, so that he dwells among the tents of Shem; and let Canaan be his slave.'Noah lived three hundred and fifty years after the flood. the whole lifetime of Noah was nine hundred and fifty years, then he died.” - Genesis 9:20-29

I can’t make any sense of this. Why would Noah curse Ham & Canaan for this? How can Canaan be his son if Canaan is a place? Why would Canaan be cursed if (if I’m correct) it is the Holy Land? And last why would Noah get drunk if he is such a righteous man (I know that he’s a fictional character, and I’m not trying to be judgemental; I’m aware that I’m a sinful person, but it still doesn’t make sense)?

“Then the Lord spoke to Samuel: ‘I regret having made Saul King, for he has turned from me and has not kept my command’ At this Samuel grew angry and cried outto the Lord all night.” - 1 Samuel 15:10-11

How can God regret doing something? This means he thinks he shouldn’t have done something and he would’t again, which would mean he made a mistake, which is irreconciliable to the nature of God. How can he regret?
 
Generic_Man said:
“He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of al creation” -Colosians 1:15

Doesn’t this imply that Jesus was created, and was not eternal?
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***Hi, Generic Man!

Some would like to think so… notice that He is the First born of all creation not the first created!

There are several passages that speak on Creation: in the Old Testatment we find Yahweh as the Creator, the One who created everything without any assistance (Isaiah 44:24), and, also in the Old Testament, we find that it is both Yahweh and the Holy Spirit who are the Creator (Judith 16:14; Wisdom 7:21, 27; Wisdom 8:5-6, 8); the New Testament tells us that Jesus is the Creator (St. John 1:1-3, 10; 2 Peter 3:5-7; Colossians 1:15-20)

For some reason some want to believe that Jesus was somehow created as a lesser form of God–sort of like a lieutenant general, to oversee the rest of creation. This is wrong in two major accounts: firstly, it intimates that God is not Omnipotent since He needed a Master Creator, and, secondly, Yahweh has stated that He alone is God and that no other God existed before Him and that no other God would existed after Him! (Isaiah 43:10-11)

When we read St. John’s revelation about Christ’s Divinity it makes perfect sense that Christ, the Son, is God along with Yahweh, the Father, and the Holy Spirit–not readily revealed, who is the Force of Creation and is called both the Spirit of Christ and of the Father: …in the beginning the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God! (John 1:1-14).

God Bless!

Angel
 
Col. 1:15 - “Firstborn” - Jesus is the image of the invisible God, the “firstborn” of all creation.

The Greek word for “first-born” is (prototokos) which means eternal preexistence (IT NEVER MEANS CREATED!). The title “first-born” refers to Christ’s place as the chief and unique Son of God (Rom. 8:29)… The Greek word translated “firstborn” is not a noun, but an adjective. If it really refers to being born, the verse is theologically incorrect. Adam was the firstborn man of creation (although he wasn’t really born) The word “firstborn” in this verse does not refer to a physical birth… The will of the Father is that all holy angels fall down and worship Jesus Christ as the firstborn of God. “Firstborn” is not speaking about being first in birth order, but about the pre-eminence, sovereignty, and priority of Christ. Those who worship are inferior to the one being worshiped. The Son is superior to these holy angels, who are commanded to worship him.
This same verse describes Jesus as being the “firstborn from the dead” and defines Jesus as having “first place in everything,” demonstrating that “firstborn” refers to position and not creation. He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. (Colossians 1:18)
 
Generic_Man said:
“He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of al creation” -Colosians 1:15

Doesn’t this imply that Jesus was created, and was not eternal?

"Now Noah, a man of the soil, was the first to plant a vineyard. When he drank some of the wine, he became drunl and lay naked inside his tent. Ham, the father of Canaan, saw his father’s nakedness, and he told his two brothers outside about it. Shem and Japheth, however, took a robe, and holding it backs, they walked backwards and covered their father’s nakedness; since their faces were the other way, they did not see their father’s nakedness. Whe Noah woke up from his drunkeness and learned what his youngest son had done to him he said 'Cursed by Canaan! The lowest of slaves he shall be to his brothers. He also said “Blessed be the Lord, the God of Shem! Let Canaan be his slave. May God expand Japheth, so that he dwells among the tents of Shem; and let Canaan be his slave.'Noah lived three hundred and fifty years after the flood. the whole lifetime of Noah was nine hundred and fifty years, then he died.” - Genesis 9:20-29

I can’t make any sense of this. Why would Noah curse Ham & Canaan for this? How can Canaan be his son if Canaan is a place? Why would Canaan be cursed if (if I’m correct) it is the Holy Land? And last why would Noah get drunk if he is such a righteous man (I know that he’s a fictional character, and I’m not trying to be judgemental; I’m aware that I’m a sinful person, but it still doesn’t make sense)?

“Then the Lord spoke to Samuel: ‘I regret having made Saul King, for he has turned from me and has not kept my command’ At this Samuel grew angry and cried outto the Lord all night.” - 1 Samuel 15:10-11

How can God regret doing something? This means he thinks he shouldn’t have done something and he would’t again, which would mean he made a mistake, which is irreconciliable to the nature of God. How can he regret?
Click to expand...
Noah- Noah is credited with making the first vineyard and wine-so he imbibed a little to much ! Drunkenness was not considered so much as a sin but as a weakness that wise men did not indulge in besides Canaan sin is greater- seeing one’s nakedness in the OT implied sexual relations very often -is that the case here? maybe- but there is something sexual about the whole episode.secondly the story is what the call an etiological story(how things came to be). In other words what made the Canaanites so evil that they had to be removed from the land?Well great great great etc grandpa Canaan was a pervert just like the canaanites oflater times. And Shem -because he did the right thing would be given the land that should have been Canaan-just like the semites(shem is the father of all semites) would be given the Promised land- it was all in the cards from the beginning of time that the Hebrews would own the land of Canaan. In a lot of OT stories God changes His mind or is talked out of destroying the Hebrews like the golden calf incident - moses had to do some fast talking there-Besides making Saul a king was not God’s Idea. God was supposed to be the real King of Israel - God basically did what the people wanted Him to do(the wanted to be like other nations)- he was none to happy about it.So God regretted letting the people have their way ( much like a parent regrets letting a child have his way)Moses and Samuel bothe intercede for their people-( one of the jobs of a prophet) Saying that, God in the beginning of the bible is much more '“HUMAN”.as israelites understanding of God evolves above anthropomorphism of Yahweh we see less and less God changing his mind- and Yahweh becomes more powerful and more universal.God doesn’t Change-😉 but how humans saw or see him has changed
 
Generic_Man said:
And last why would Noah get drunk if he is such a righteous man (I know that he’s a fictional character, and I’m not trying to be judgemental; I’m aware that I’m a sinful person, but it still doesn’t make sense)?
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I am shure the Church does not say Noah is fictional.:confused: I could be wrong, i know the church does not require us to take the Bible literally but take adam and eve for instance, the church requires we take certain aspects of that literally and reject polgenism, is it the same in this case?
 
daraku said:
The Greek word for “first-born” is (prototokos) which means eternal preexistence (IT NEVER MEANS CREATED!). The title “first-born” refers to Christ’s place as the chief and unique Son of God (Rom. 8:29)…

“Firstborn” is not speaking about being first in birth order, but about the pre-eminence, sovereignty, and priority of Christ…

This same verse describes Jesus as being the “firstborn from the dead” and defines Jesus as having “first place in everything,” demonstrating that “firstborn” refers to position and not creation.
Click to expand...
***Hi, daraku!

Thanks for the defenition (Greak is foreing to me)… 👍

The preeminence of Christ is especially seen at His death and resurrection:

But Jesus, again crying out in a loud voice, yielded up his spirit.
And suddenly, the veil of the Sanctuary was torn in two from top to bottom, the earth quaked, the rocks were split,
the tombs opened and the bodies of many holy people rose from the dead,
and these, after his resurrection, came out of the tombs, entered the holy city and appeared to a number of people. (St. Matthew 27:50-53)

God Bless!

Angel
 
In regards to the second point, I’ve heard before that “your father’s nakedness” actually means sex with your mother. The one who told me that backed it up with Hebrew translations and other verses of Scripture, but I definitely couldn’t tell you most of the specifics.

Basically, the idea went like this: Ham got Papa Noah drunk, then went and has sex with Mrs. Noah as some mad attempt to form a name for himself (in the dynasty sense). Interesting theory, if nothing else.

Sam, the Neon Orange Knight
 
Ne_OrangeKnight said:
In regards to the second point, I’ve heard before that “your father’s nakedness” actually means sex with your mother. The one who told me that backed it up with Hebrew translations and other verses of Scripture, but I definitely couldn’t tell you most of the specifics.
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***Hi, Sam!

In my Spanish version of the Jerusalem Bible the word “desnudez” (nakedness) is used; while in the English version of the New Jerusalem Bible the term used is intercourse.

It could very well be that the original (Greek/Hebrew) used a word that could be translated as both since these terms are similar in tone (it is customary to remove our clothes before engaging in sex).

However, both the JB and the NJB make specific distinctions about not seeing the nakedness (not having intercourse with) of the father and mother. Regardless of the root word or meaning, I doubt that Yahweh was thinking that the Priests would be exposing themselves in a sexual manner–so I view the term of nakedness as having the virtue of modesty (as would be the sexual relationship between a man and his wife) and the violation of such (particularly in this case).
Basically, the idea went like this: Ham got Papa Noah drunk, then went and has sex with Mrs. Noah as some mad attempt to form a name for himself (in the dynasty sense). Interesting theory, if nothing else.
Sam, the Neon Orange Knight
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…presumption is a great word… a lot like theory… it says much but the whole context can be twisted or prodded to mean something else… Noah was not a king or a rich person, he was a farmer so there was no dynasty to grab. The Holy Scriptures tells us that Noah got drunk, removed his clothes and laid naked in his tent–there was a physical “desnudez” not a figurative nakedness (as in the act of having sex with the man’s spouse). Further, Scriptures tell us that Noah and his wife and his three sons and their wives got on the ark so unless Noah’s sons were depraved they would not seek their mom as a sexual partner nor support each other in taking such action!

I suggest that you tell your acquaintance to stop reaching! 😛

Maran atha!

Angel***
 
jcrichton, you seem to have misunderstood some of the details, and I’m struggling to make sense of some of what you’ve said. And also, I’m probably not doing my friend’s explanation justice.

Not that I necessarily believed it anyway. I don’t know. I seem to have lost my train of relevance.

Sam, the Neon Orange Knight
 
Ne_OrangeKnight said:
I’m struggling to make sense of some of what you’ve said. Sam, the Neon Orange Knight
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***Hi, Sam!

…sorry for the confusion… my intent was to clarify not obfuscate.

If you want me to clarify anything on my post, please feel free to list the point/s for clarification.

Maran atha!

Angel***
 
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