Difficult contraception question

[FTS]

Hi everyone. I have a very difficult question dealing with the use of contraception. I am interested in any insight and clarification you could give me. Here goes…

My wife and I are both Catholics. During the very beginning of our marriage we both disagreed with the Church’s teaching on contraception. I have studied my Catholic faith much more since then, and now I agree and adhere to all of Church doctrine, but my wife still does not agree with Church teaching on contraception. I advocate using
NFP, but she wants to use condoms. So we do use condoms. Birth control pill is out of the question for us since that can be abortive. I tried to research what the Church advocates to do in this situation, when one spouse wants to use NFP but the other refuses and wants to use contraception. I have been told that it is okay to use contraception in this very unique situation, under two conditions however. First of all, the spouse must continually inform his/her spouse about NFP and try to convince the spouse to begin using NFP. My wife is receptive to possibly using NFP in the future, but not right now. But she is open to reading more materials and trying to understand the Church teaching prohibiting contraception and promoting NFP. And second, the spouse must not be using the contraceptive method themselves, it must be the doing of the other spouse. For example, if the man is the one not wanting to use contraception, he could have relations with his wife is she was using female condoms, the pill, or the shot. On the flip side, if the wife was in the position of not wanting to use contraception, she could have relations with her husband if he was the one putting on and using the male condom. I have what may be a difficult question in this regard. Currently we use male condoms. Which of the following is true…1)I am not morally allowed to use the male condom and we should refrain from sexual relations until we can agree to use NFP…or, 2)we can use the male condom as long as SHE is the one putting the condom on me, and then she would be the person actively using the contraceptive method and not myself responsible. I need clarification on the subject. Hopefully I am making my situation clear. Basically I am wondering if it is morally permissible for me to have sexual relations with my wife so long as she is the one putting the condom on me and she is the one applying the contraceptive method, or if in that case I would still be considered the one using the contraceptive method, since it is a male condom. If that is true then I understand that I would either have to only have relations if she is the one using the contraceptive method (although we would never do anything abortive, such as the shot or the BC pill, it would have to be a female condom I suppose), or I would need to abstain from sexual relations until we can agree to use NFP. My wife and I are a young married couple, and if she does agree to use NFP we would attempt to postpone having children until a later date by not having relations on her fertile days. I sincerely feel we have a serious reason to do so, and I realize that couples can use even NFP for selfish and immoral reasons, the reason must be morally valid, serious, and just to postpone having children or space out your children. I realize there are many just reasons to do so. My wife is aware that I am trying to resolve this situation, and I am at least happy that she is open to possibly considering using NFP in the future. I really want to know and follow the teaching of the our One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church in this and all matters. Thanks for your time, and I know this may be a truly difficult question to answer. I would really appreciate it if anybody could get back to me about this. Thank you!

 

[1ke]

Currently we use male condoms. Which of the following is true…1)I am not morally allowed to use the male condom and we should refrain from sexual relations until we can agree to use NFP…or, 2)we can use the male condom as long as SHE is the one putting the condom on me, and then she would be the person actively using the contraceptive method and not myself responsible. I need clarification on the subject.

You cannot use a condom, and her “putting it on you” does not remove your culpability in using contraception. If she uses something, a sponge or whatever, then you are not culpable.

What I don’t understand is why she would use a condom (high, high failure rate) rather than learn NFP. I would never use a condom, knowing what I know about my body!

Basically I am wondering if it is morally permissible for me to have sexual relations with my wife so long as she is the one putting the condom on me

No.

Please talk to your priest about this!

I would really appreciate it if anybody could get back to me about this. Thank you!

I would encourage you to get your wife in an NFP class to learn how her body works. Tell her taking the class is not a committment to use it, but it’s the way one goes about gathering information. NFP is so superior to contraception even if she’s not on board theologically I would hope she’d see it from a biology point of view.

 

[TallyCatholic]

Your understanding of what the church teaches is correct up until using a condom. You wife would have to use some type of contraceptive like the sponge, female condom, etc., in order for your culpability to be removed.

But other than that you are right on about what the church says when it comes to disagreement in contraception beliefs. That’s a tough situation. NFP is much more reliable WHEN USED PROPERLY. Taking a class will definately help. It takes awhile (about 6 months of charting) to get the hang of it. Those first 6 months might be tough becuase you should use the most conservative methods which means abstaining for probably +/- 2 weeks. But once your wife understands her body and charts you can start to use more liberal rules.

But NFP nor artificial means of contraception are 100% effective. The hard part of NFP is trusting God’s will for you. If he wants to give you a baby, he’s going to do that!

 

[Brenda_V]

I am going to disagree with 1ke as far as your wife putting the condom on you. This removes you from “using” it although it does further remove you when she uses the female condom or sponge. If you really need better clarification talk to your Priest about it, he should be able to help you.

Having said this, can you convince her to attend NFP classes near you while she still uses whatever method she chooses? Locally we have the option of Creighton Model or CCL’s Sympto-Thermal.

Knowledge is such a wonderful thing as the other posters have said!

Brenda V.

 

[Corki]

I am going to disagree with 1ke as far as your wife putting the condom on you. This removes you from “using” it although it does further remove you when she uses the female condom or sponge. If you really need better clarification talk to your Priest about it, he should be able to help you.

Brenda V.

If he is the one wearing it, then he is the one using it. I don’t see how her putting it on has any bearing at all. It is his fertility that is being hampered and he is willingly letting her do it.

 

[1ke]

I am going to disagree with 1ke as far as your wife putting the condom on you. This removes you from “using” it although it

It is not possible to put a condom on a man without his cooperation (via sexual arousal). He must be actively engaged before it’s even possible to do so.

One should not try to skirt the church’s teaching on a “technicality” such as who puts the condom on.

I agree, talking to a priest is a good idea.

 

[Feanaro_s_Wife]

If he is the one wearing it, then he is the one using it. I don’t see how her putting it on has any bearing at all. It is his fertility that is being hampered and he is willingly letting her do it.

I agree.

---

It is like saying that because a doctor performed an abortion as opposed to you doing somethign to yourself to cause the deah of the baby that you are not responsible for it in the eyes of God. Silly.

---

Malia

 

[mikew262]

What I don’t understand is why she would use a condom (high, high failure rate) rather than learn NFP. I would never use a condom, knowing what I know about my body!

High, high failure rate is open to interpretation.

Just for clarification, the failure rate for “perfect” condom use is only 2-3% according to several studies I saw. “Perfect” meaning you have to use the condom as intended, and it does not slip or break. If you factor in the breakage and slipping, then the failure rate is of course somewhat higher depending upon what study you use.

 

[1ke]

High, high failure rate is open to interpretation.

Just for clarification, the failure rate for “perfect” condom use is only 2-3% according to several studies I saw. “Perfect” meaning you have to use the condom as intended, and it does not slip or break. If you factor in the breakage and slipping, then the failure rate is of course somewhat higher depending upon what study you use.

However, the “failure rate” is based on all days of condom usage skewing the statistics considerably. However, we NFP users know that there are many days on which condoms are being used when they are not necessary and have absolutely no impact in “preventing conception”.

If I use a condom on an infertile day, of course it won’t fail.

If you were to examine only those days on which it is possible to become pregnant, you would have to revise your assessment of it’s “failure rate”.

I would never rely on a condom to prevent pregnancy on a day I knew was fertile. THAT is Roulette. Abstaining is not.

 

[Brenda_V]

However, the “failure rate” is based on all days of condom usage skewing the statistics considerably. However, we NFP users know that there are many days on which condoms are being used when they are not necessary and have absolutely no impact in “preventing conception”.

If I use a condom on an infertile day, of course it won’t fail.

If you were to examine only those days on which it is possible to become pregnant, you would have to revise your assessment of it’s “failure rate”.

I would never rely on a condom to prevent pregnancy on a day I knew was fertile. THAT is Roulette. Abstaining is not.

This is very true but so many people rely on the statistics that the “medical people” give. One statistic I read recently was that condoms have a failure rate of 10-15%. Now this might have been for STD’s because the card I read it on was trying to prevent STDs. So this begs the question, if the failure rate for STD’s is 10-15% and we are only “fertile” for a maximum of 7 days (good mucous, long lived sperm) what does that say for those days? This is supposed to be or perfect use.

BTW, I will back off of the “it is okay for her to put it on you” for now. I would really like to see someone here on the Morality Forum address this though as I do see how this “technicality” does change the “who is using the contraception”. I do struggle with how the OP can tell his wife to start using a sponge or female condom without showing acceptance to such a use. Hmmm, maybe he could say he just won’t have sex with her if she insists on using a male condom, let her research the other possibilities. (unfortunately for me that would have been a perfect excuse to stop having sex altogether which doesn’t make for a good marriage either.)

Another possibility that occurred to me while reading the newest parts of this thread was why doesn’t he learn a little about NFP himself and just start following her cycle - like when it begins and ends and if she is really regular, he could approach her only right after her cycle started (five days say) and then wait until day 17 or so to approach her again. I realize this is like the old rythm method but it could work to start gaining her confidence in what it is all about. It would also let him know what it is all about.

Brenda V.

 

[1ke]

I do struggle with how the OP can tell his wife to start using a sponge or female condom without showing acceptance to such a use.

If that was in any way implied, let’s be clear-- he cannot “suggest” she use any sort of contraception. I was merely giving the example that is she, herself, did use such a method he is not culpable. If he participates in wearing a condom, then he is culpable. If he suggests methods to her, then yes he would have culpability.

Another possibility that occurred to me while reading the newest parts of this thread was why doesn’t he learn a little about NFP himself and just start following her cycle - like when it begins and ends and if she is really regular, he could approach her only right after her cycle started (five days say) and then wait until day 17 or so to approach her again. I realize this is like the old rythm method but it could work to start gaining her confidence in what it is all about. It would also let him know what it is all about.

I wouldn’t recommend this avenue precisely because it is very inaccurate. Even if she is “regular” individual months could vary substantially… I had a bad cold this last month and it delayed my fertility signs by 5 days…

 

[Brenda_V]

I wouldn’t recommend this avenue precisely because it is very inaccurate. Even if she is “regular” individual months could vary substantially… I had a bad cold this last month and it delayed my fertility signs by 5 days…

Sorry, I wasn’t clear on what I meant -I really think it wouldn’t hurt for the OP to at the very least get the CCL’s latest book on NFP and read up on it, get to understand it better himself.

Goodness, I think the best we can do right now is pray for this poor fellow, that his wife come around so he isn’t put in this position.

I am still waiting for someone with some better moral knowledge than what we here are saying - so far it has been mostly us women (other than our one guy who argued the “failure rate” of condoms). We do get emotional about this and I certainly don’t want to lead anyone into sin - that is why I backed off on the “her use/his use” issue.

I would sitll like to see a guys take on this.

Brenda V.

 

[a_cermak]

However, the “failure rate” is based on all days of condom usage skewing the statistics considerably. However, we NFP users know that there are many days on which condoms are being used when they are not necessary and have absolutely no impact in “preventing conception”.

If I use a condom on an infertile day, of course it won’t fail.

If you were to examine only those days on which it is possible to become pregnant, you would have to revise your assessment of it’s “failure rate”.

I would never rely on a condom to prevent pregnancy on a day I knew was fertile. THAT is Roulette. Abstaining is not.

The most eye-popping stat I’ve seen regarding condoms is that Nevada legal brothel workers have never had a documented case of HIV. They use a condom for every sex act that is the law. The most important thing here is consistency and the fact that the ladies know how to use a condom. They put it on the customer and use it appropriately.

 

[FTS]

Thanks to everyone for trying to answer my question. It seems the general feeling from people is that my wearing a condom during relations, even though I personally want to use NFP, and even if my wife is performing the act of putting the condom on me, would still result in me being responsible and culpible because I am the one wearing and using the condom. The key to the question is does the culpability become placed on her is those conditions are present, or doesn’t it matter, would I still be responsible. Thank you all for your responses, but I feel like I still need an answer with total certitude. It would be very helpful if an Apologist or Expert from the forum could address this situation. I am still trying to explain the Church’s teaching to my wife, and that NFP is just as effective as any contraceptive method, maybe even more effective. We love each other very much and get along great but this is a difficult situation. We understand where each of us is coming from. She hasn’t really come to the point where she understands/agrees with the Church position here, while I certainly have. As I’ve said, we both reject any use of the BC pill or the shot, anything that can be abortive. My wife feels very unsure about using any contraceptive method besides male condoms. She seems to think they would not be as effective. If it is true that in my situation I cannot use male condoms, then the choice is either to continue relations with her, providing she is the one using a contraceptive method, or to abstain until we can agree to use NFP. I do not see how explaining this to her would make me morally culpable. If I explain which contraceptive methods she could choose to use so that we could continue relations, or that if she feels too uneasy using any of them that we must abstain until we agree, I don’t see how I am advocating this use. I would simply be letting her know where I stand and what I am morally allowed to do. If I let her know about these methods, such as female condoms and spermicide, it wouldn’t be me advocating doing so just letting her know the options I am morally allowed to parake in. I am fully prepared to do whatever necessary to totally follow Church teaching, even if that would mean abstaining until we can come to agreement. I think I have began to help her understand how effective NFP truly is, but what I am still struggling to do is help her to know that she and all women can use NFP, even if they have very irregular cycles, which she does. She seems to think that because of her very irregular cycles she couldn’t use NFP effectively. I am trying to learn more about the issue, but any advice and information about how to use NFP even while being very irregular would be very helpful and I would appreciate it. I appreciate all insight, opinion, and clarification anyone could give me to follow completely Church teaching on this situation, and I thank you all very much for your help.

On a side note, I do feel my wife may not be morally responsible for using contraception since she does not truly understand/agree with the issue. This could fall along the lines of “invisible ignorance.” Yet I do know if a person is, through there own fault not investigating the truth of an issue, they could be morally culpable. I love my wife so very much, and to truly love someone you desire what is best for them, to be in Heaven with the Lord Jesus Christ forever. I do often try to help her understand the Church’s teaching on the matter, and as I said if necessary I am prepared to abstain from relations until we can agree, out of obedience and love to Jesus Christ and the teaching of His Church, as well as out of love for my wife. If she came to the point where she said she understood and agreed with the Church teaching but could not bring herself to change and still wanted to use contraception, then I would choose to abstain because I would never want to lead her to sin, rather I want to love my wife and help lead her to Heaven.

 

[1ke]

FTS, talk to your priest.

FYI, a forum apologist will not respond here. You must submit your question through “Ask the Apologist”.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Your understanding of what the church teaches is correct up until using a condom. You wife would have to use some type of contraceptive like the sponge, female condom, etc., in order for your culpability to be removed.

Actually I do not think this would remove his culpability. The only way I can see it doing that is if she secretly does this without his knowledge.

After all, he knows what she is doing and he goes along with it even though he knows it is wrong.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

The most eye-popping stat I’ve seen regarding condoms is that Nevada legal brothel workers have never had a documented case of HIV. They use a condom for every sex act that is the law. The most important thing here is consistency and the fact that the ladies know how to use a condom. They put it on the customer and use it appropriately.

That and can we truely trust the reporting mechanisms?

 

[1ke]

Actually I do not think this would remove his culpability. The only way I can see it doing that is if she secretly does this without his knowledge.

After all, he knows what she is doing and he goes along with it even though he knows it is wrong.

That is not the case. The revelant Vatican document can be found here.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

That is not the case. The revelant Vatican document can be found here.

No where in this document do I see where the OP is allowed to tell his wife to use female contraception and for that not to be sinful.

It does give these three conditions.

1. Special difficulties are presented by cases of cooperation in the sin of a spouse who voluntarily renders the unitive act infecund. In the first place, it is necessary to distinguish cooperation in the proper sense, from violence or unjust imposition on the part of one of the spouses, which the other spouse in fact cannot resist.46, 561).] This cooperation can be licit when the three following conditions are jointly met:
   1. 
      *]when the action of the cooperating spouse is not already illicit in itself;47
      *]when proportionally grave reasons exist for cooperating in the sin of the other spouse;
      *]when one is seeking to help the other spouse to desist from such conduct (patiently, with prayer, charity and dialogue; although not necessarily in that moment, nor on every single occasion).
      His telling his wife to use female contraception would not be covered by these. I can see an argument for #3 yet that would only be in the case where she is seeking to help her husband to stop using contraception but she does not believe what the Church teaches in this matter so I can bet that she does not care and would rather that they, as a couple, continue to use contraception.

 

[dylanschrader]

No where in this document do I see where the OP is allowed to tell his wife to use female contraception and for that not to be sinful.

It does give these three conditions.

1. Special difficulties are presented by cases of cooperation in the sin of a spouse who voluntarily renders the unitive act infecund. In the first place, it is necessary to distinguish cooperation in the proper sense, from violence or unjust imposition on the part of one of the spouses, which the other spouse in fact cannot resist.46, 561).] This cooperation can be licit when the three following conditions are jointly met:
   1. 
      *]when the action of the cooperating spouse is not already illicit in itself;47
      *]when proportionally grave reasons exist for cooperating in the sin of the other spouse;
      *]when one is seeking to help the other spouse to desist from such conduct (patiently, with prayer, charity and dialogue; although not necessarily in that moment, nor on every single occasion).
      His telling his wife to use female contraception would not be covered by these. I can see an argument for #3 yet that would only be in the case where she is seeking to help her husband to stop using contraception but she does not believe what the Church teaches in this matter so I can bet that she does not care and would rather that they, as a couple, continue to use contraception.

1. 
   Right. He cannot encourage his wife to use contraception and he cannot use it himself.
   
   If she insists on using contraception, however, he may engage in sexual relations with her for a serious reason like preserving the marriage, but he must be encouraging her not to contracept.
   
   The Church is not saying that the use of contraception is licit in cases like these. Rather, she is saying that it is licit to cooperate in the evil of contraception in certain cases.