Difficult marriage

[EasterJoy]

(cont…)

7.Do not join the game.
Intrigue is a sociopath’s tool. Resist the temptation to compete with a seductive sociopath, to outsmart him, psychoanalyze, or even banter with him. In addition to reducing yourself to his level, you would be distracting yourself from what is really important, which is to protect yourself.

8.The best way to protect yourself from a sociopath is to avoid him, to refuse any kind of contact or communication.

Psychologists do not usually like to recommend avoidance, but in this case, I make a very deliberate exception. The only truly effective method for dealing with a sociopath you have identified is to disallow him or her from your life altogether. Sociopaths live completely outside of the social contract, and therefore to include them in relationships or other social arrangements is perilous. Begin this exclusion of them in the context of your own relationships and social life. You will not hurt anyone’s feelings. Strange as it seems, and though they may try to pretend otherwise, sociopaths do not have any such feelings to hurt.

You may never be able to make your family and friends understand why you are avoiding a particular individual. Sociopathy is surprisingly difficult to see, and harder to explain. Avoid him/her anyway.

If total avoidance is impossible, make plans to come as close as you can to the goal of total avoidance.

9.Question your tendency to pity too easily.
Respect should be reserved for the kind and the morally courageous. Pity is another socially valuable response, and should be reserved for innocent people who are in genuine pain or who have fallen on misfortune. If, instead, you find yourself often pitying someone who consistently hurts you or other people, and who actively campaigns for your sympathy, the chances are close to one hundred percent that you are dealing with a sociopath.

Related to this – I recommend that you severely challenge your need to be polite in absolutely all situations. For normal adults in our culture, being what we think of as “civilized” is like a reflex, and often we find ourselves being automatically decorous even when someone has enraged us, repeatedly lied to us, or figuratively stabbed us in the back. Sociopaths take huge advantage of this automatic courtesy in exploitive situations.

Do not be afraid to be unsmiling and calmly to the point.

10.Do not try to redeem the unredeemable.
Second (third, fourth, and fifth) chances are for people who possess conscience. If you are dealing with a person who has no conscience, know how to swallow hard and cut your losses.

At some point, most of us need to learn the important if disappointing life lesson that, no matter how good our intentions, we cannot control the behavior-- let alone the character structures-- of other people. Learn this fact of human life, and avoid the irony of getting caught up in the same ambition he has-- to control.

If you do not desire control, but instead want to help people, then help only those who truly want to be helped. I think you will find this does not include the person who has no conscience.

The sociopath’s behavior is not your fault, not in any way whatsoever. It is also not your mission. Your mission is your own life.

11.Never agree, out of pity or for any other reason, to help a sociopath conceal his or her true character.

“Please don’t tell,” often spoken tearfully and with great gnashing of teeth, is the trademark plea of thieves, child abusers-- and sociopaths. Do not listen to this siren-song. Other people deserve to be warned more than sociopaths deserve to have you keep their secrets.

If someone without conscience insists that you “owe” him or her, recall what you are about to read here-- that “You owe me” has been the standard line of sociopaths for thousands of years, quite literally, and is still so. It is what Rasputin told the Empress of Russia. It is what Hannah’s father implied to her, after her eye-opening conversation with him at the prison.

We tend to experience “You owe me” as a compelling claim, but it is simply not true. Do not listen. Also, ignore the one that goes, “You are just like me.” You are not.

12.Defend your psyche.
Do not allow someone without conscience, or even a string of such people, to convince you that humanity is a failure. Most human beings do possess conscience. Most human beings are able to love.

13.Living well is the best revenge.

 

[EasterJoy]

Especially go back through your relationship and ask yourself whether your husband gets away with intolerable behavior by getting you to feel sorry for him. Ask yourself whether or not his “remorse” is expressed by his doing something to make it up to you, or you being the one who is being forgiving and giving. Ask yourself if he blames you (or anyone and everyone except himself!) when he suffers natural consequences for his bad behavior. Does he ever make a real apology or take real responsibility for his failures? Or does he make excuses, deny that there was an offense, or shift as much of the blame as possible onto someone else?

When a manipulative person can get a person with a normal psychological make-up to feel sorry for them, they have carte blanche. They are on a shopping spree, and the person having pity on them is going to pay the tab for their self-serving choices for as long as the manipulator can keep the game going. When it ends, the manipulator will usually have the chutzpah to make some complaint like, “I knew you didn’t really support me no matter what. You lied to me. You’re abandoning me when I need you. You’re just like everyone else.”

Don’t buy it. Do not concern yourself about who believes his lies about you behind your back. Back away slowly, and do not trust someone like that another inch about anything. It could save your life, your psyche, or both…and let’s not forget the emotional twisting it will save your children.

 

[Deltadeliquent]

Oh Easterjoy! Where were you when my life fell apart?!

Your posts have been very healing to me, I hope they are not lost to the OP.

I’ve got to get that book, I think most of it would apply to narcissists too.

 

[jbenade]

EasterJoy,

BINGO!

I have done much research on sociopaths and have often thought he may very well be one. I know for a fact his mother is one. And as the old adage goes, “The apple doesn’t fall far from the tree.”

Thanks for this. I must re-read it a few times.

 

[Oh_Charlotte]

Sorry, jbenade, i did not see you replied.

Charlotte, thank you. I needed to hear that, especially about your house. I love my house and don’t want to leave it. Mostly fear of the unknown. Where will I go? What will happen to me?

As another poster said, you may get enough alimony/maintenance to keep it. But certainly also you may not, and of course you have to face that reality. I say of course but I had trouble facing realities. I remember saying to my lawyer, as I kept on finding out more things, and my ex was making false accusations to gain custody that I had to answer: “I can’t believe this is happening. I can’t believe this is happening.” I was just frozen into not being able to do or think because of it! Well my lawyer pounded his hand on the table and said, *“Well, you BETTER believe it because it IS happening!” * That was a reality dose I needed at that time.

While I had the very house I loved, I knew this was a material worldly comfort and that God could and maybe should be my real and higher comfort. Also because in spite of a bad and lonely marriage to a Narcissist, I loved being a wife and I valued that so much because it was my place in society. I really suffered at* that* loss. I had this thought at the time that I perhaps “coveted” my place in society as a wife and losing it against my will would help me love God more. I can say that it did. “Thou shall have no other gods before Me”. In a way, my place in society as a wife, my house, and most importantly my life as a SAHM was my “god” - it was so important to me. Maybe in some sense, more important than God. Losing it, then, was a way to kill that god. Now some ten years out, I can say, it was good for me.

I can assure you if you move forward in doing what is right, you can free fall into God’s protection. You can trust in Him.

Did you get an annulment?

Mine should go through on a “technicality” basically. I only recently sought one because I completely unexpectedly fell in love. This was ten years after the official legal end of a marriage that never was a marraige. It was the very weekend I had gone to a healing ministry, when Jesus healed my heart. It was a Sunday; I had gone for the healing ministry’s scheduled followup (to make sure nothing was missed) and I was a new person, so completely new, so completely whole. [Jesus had been healing me and sustaining me all along after my divorce, particularly through Mass, Adoration and the Sacraments, and in so many ways, but I was led to this ministry after I heard Jesus say interiorly, “I love you…Don’t you want to be whole?” So now my heart was new. And from there, on the way home, I went for a brief first-time meeting of my old friend I corresponded with for some years with no intentions of it ever being more, and fell in love, solidly and suddenly… now he is seeking an annulment and we have some waiting to do for that. But we are a match made in heaven.

And so I can also say to you, if ending this marraige (because it is not a marriage and never can be and therefore it is not Gods intent for you to maintain this sham) is what you should be doing, you can count on God having good things in store for you. You cannot know what, but only that He does.

One of the scriptures I took comfort in that I always had great faith in in the painful lonely years of my marriage was that “God will make up for the years the locusts have eaten”. I have lived in faith of those words and it seems only recently I see* how God is going to do/is doing that long expected thing.

Based on my story, do you think I could get one. I know that the adultery prior to having our marriage blessed in the Church won’t count. At least I don’t think. But the pushing (physical abuse) and keeping me from leaving my house (false imprisonment) might? I have not pressed charges, but wondering if I should do so for documentation sake.

Yes, based on your story I think you could get one. However one can never presume. You must go through the process like everyone else and as has been explained in this thread, that doesn’t start til after divorce.

I think you need to look at the divorce only for now, since you can’t start annulment anyway, and seek if its God’s will for you, for the physical, emotional, and mental safety of yourself to separate and divorce. And find out how. If your husband is vindictive, you may want to keep the peace and secretly seek wise spiritual and legal counsel and secretly plan what you will do. You may need a restraining order at the time you tell him your intentions if it is divorce. Be careful.

I do think you should call the police and press charges if he ever physically tries to hurt you in anger again… Telling him once that you will do this if he ever does it again should suffice, then act when he does. Having a record helps. And withholding natural consequences from him does him no good - it encourages him in his sin in fact. And its for your safety - physical abuse escalates!

Fear of the police being called can deter, and keep you both from going down that road - keeping you safe and him from that sin. I told my ex many years ago after he shoved me that if he ever manhandled me again I would call the police. He knew I meant it and that ended the physical abuse forever. However he went many years increasing his verbal and emotional abuse, covertly and overtly til I was steeped in it. Also when he would get angry (which was frequent) he would threaten physical abuse with his look, and his posture - leaning into my face, or raising his fist…

It is so wrong to live with that, but it is like a frog dropped in cold water to cook - you don’t realize how hot the water has gotten…

 

[Oh_Charlotte]

The kids would hate me for it, having their dad locked up (probably for a few days, I don’t know).

Tell them what you will do. Tell them no man should ever hit a women and if he does the woman should call the police and have a report made. Tell them its the right thing to do and you will do it if you need to and they should do the same if they ever need to. And if you have sons they should see the natural consequences for men who do this (Some women do this, its true, but its vastly mostly men).

That he is trying to get the kids on his side is something you should confront them with. Say the truth to them. Tell them you noticed how they acted toward you when they came home and tell them you don’t appreciate their judging you based on hearsay and that they should find out the truth before they judge. They will be judged by God someday with the same measure they judged others…

My ex’s brother’s wife has the same sorts of problems I had with her husband’s brother. Only my parents stayed happily together and her Dad wronged her Mom – he was an adulterer. When as a child her father tried to buy her friendship (as it seems your husband is doing to your kids) her mother “mocked” her, saying, “Look at you! You can be* bought* with a mere candy bar!”… her mothers reaction and further explanation and her mothers teaching that you should never except gifts from any man was a lesson she never forgot and it was a help to her all her life including in this bad marriage she is in.

I have also put a lot of love and hard work into this house. Painting, wallpapering, garden, custom draperies that I made. I’ve been here for 14 years. It’s where my kids mostly grew up.

I do understand. Take pictures. If you have to lose it, you will have the joy of discovering how God is truly a completely fulfilling, never failing comfort. Also as to losing my house, I believe that something of that house and the best memories will be with me in heaven, only better.

I’m just afraid to let go.

God says over and over and over in scripture, “Be anxious for nothing.” You know that God will always help you do His will, and His will is for you to not be anxious. So ask him for help with your anxiety whenever you feel it. He will help.

Plus, my standing in the Church. Plus, will God be angry with me that I didn’t stick this out, bear my cross with grace as He did for us.

Well, you probably have better understanding of whether God wants you to stick this out now. Whenever you are afraid of God being angry with you about doing something (or not doing something) its a good time to see a priest. You will get good counsel. Don’t worry about your standing in the Church as to this - if you divorce, you will still be in good standing with the Church and still receive communion (unless you are sinning, such as marrying or living as if married when not annulled).

 

[EasterJoy]

EasterJoy,

BINGO!

I have done much research on sociopaths and have often thought he may very well be one. I know for a fact his mother is one. And as the old adage goes, “The apple doesn’t fall far from the tree.”

Thanks for this. I must re-read it a few times.

The thing is, if you have an animal with really big canines snapping at your heels, you don’t need to spend a lot of time deciding whether it is a wolf or a domesticated dog. Just get out of there, and stay away unless its behind a fence or on a strong leash.

Manipulative people, whether they manipulate because they’re true brain-wired sociopaths or because they’re owned by an addiction or just because they’ve chosen a life of taking instead of a life of giving, will eat you alive and not care where you land when they spit you out. That is not a sacrificial death, because it will save no one. Get out!

 

[Oh_Charlotte]

Martha Stout wrote … “The Sociopath Next Door”. Here are her rules…

EasterJoy, this is valuable info not only to jbenade but also to many others.

I had to learn these things my own hard way, after many years of crazy-making life with my ex.

I also want to say that anyone who has lived closely with one of these, particularly if they have wrongly thought of them as having a conscience, has been traumatized. They might read about PTSD and see if any of that sounds like them. Being married to one damages your heart. But the good news is, Jesus heals hearts!

1.The first rule involves the bitter pill of accepting that some people literally have no conscience, and that these people do not often look like Charles Manson… They look like us.

This accepting is such an important No.1! people having no conscience was something I had never considered the years I lived in confusion with my ex.

Only someone who has experienced one of these in their life knows that reality that they exist and are all around us, sometimes looking like the best and nicest person in the office or at the family party.

8.The best way to protect yourself from a sociopath is to avoid him, to refuse any kind of contact or communication. …The only truly effective method for dealing with a sociopath you have identified is to disallow him or her from your life altogether. Sociopaths live completely outside of the social contract, and therefore to include them in relationships or other social arrangements is perilous.

Yes, I had to do this with my ex. I truly wanted the best for my son and wanted to co-parent, or at least treat each other with the polite respect of colleagues. But he doesn’t do that, he manipulates, he preys for opportune moments to verbally abuse. I remembered reading on parenting-after-divorce that while polite and regular communication is best for the child, not all divorced parents can; some simply have to “parallel parent”, living separate lives and avoiding all communication. As soon as I read that I knew it referred to narcissists and sociopaths…

So after suffering my attempts to have polite positive communication, I finally learned I had to avoid almost all contact, having only the very most necessary talks. I also have found, for whatever reason, its best if I cut the conversation off first. I guess it was because he would choose to do it rudely or suddenly, as a dig (since he was so addicted to getting digs in). It would make bad memories flood back in and take my peace. So now as soon as I get my necessary things said to him I suddenly and politely end the conversation before he does.

…Begin this exclusion of them in the context of your own relationships and social life. You will not hurt anyone’s feelings. Strange as it seems, and though they may try to pretend otherwise, sociopaths do not have any such feelings to hurt.

So true. You could actually say* they don’t have feelings*. They only instead do an expert job of acting whatever feelings are called for in the situation.

How does someone with no feelings get a souse? They pretend them! They know what to do; they see it on movies. Then after they get married, and are sure their spouse is staying (she won’t consider divorce ever, or is tied down with pregnancy/children) they stop the tiresome pretending for good. Rather abruptly, usually.

… You may never be able to make your family and friend understand why you are avoiding a particular individual. Sociopathy is surprisingly difficult to see, and harder to explain. Avoid him/her anyway.

This is so true. Some people will judge you for leaving him and if you try to explain what makes no sense to them they will cut you off with, “Please keep me out of this.” And you will still see the judgement in them but you can’t defend yourself. You will get this. Remember Jesus suffered false accusations too. He knows. Since my ex blazed the path before me telling everyone of our acquaintance his convoluted lies for why he had to leave, and because I read countenances easily, and everywhere I went I was greeted by someone looking at me with sudden new reserve or even judgement, this was so hard. I could not say to an acquaintance, “I know what you are thinking, let me explain.” So I suffered. Until I began to pray the Litany of Humility everyday. Then I could handle it! I remember one day being insulted and saying with a smile to Jesus, interiorly, “Oh! I am being *calumniated! *Thank you, Jesus! Just what I was praying for!” At that moment I truly saw the graces praying that prayer had wrought in my life. I could not have gotten there on my own.

Related to this – I recommend that you severely challenge your need to be polite in absolutely all situations. For normal adults in our culture, being what we think of as “civilized” is like a reflex, and often we find ourselves being automatically decorous even when someone has enraged us, repeatedly lied to us, or figuratively stabbed us in the back. Sociopaths take huge advantage of this automatic courtesy in exploitative situations.
…

This is so true. I have had to learn that there are times for being not-polite but to-the-point and unsmiling. Since my divorce I have not been accused of “smiling too much”, though I was occcasionally accused of this while married. Smiling was a way of living in denial, and denial was my way of life, my coping mechanism. I think I smiled too little after the divorce, excepting being at Mass or talking to devout Catholics. I smile more now, but I think, appropriately.

Thanks for much food for thought, EasterJoy.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

I do think it is very difficult for normal people to grasp the reality of a sociopath/psychopath’s inner void. We keep trying and trying to make things come out right, and it never can. The sociopath destroys the individuals around him/her; sometimes gradually, sometimes suddenly with a sudden malicious action.

What is difficult to understand is that if the individual is a narcissist/sociopath, a normal person CAN NEVER WIN. NEVER. I can’t say that strongly enough. You will never, ever win the war. You might win one of the battles, if the person is off-balance enough. Or if they let you win one battle in order to get you to let your guard down and thereby hit you even harder the next battle. You will never win the war. Ever. You have a conscience and they have none. Therefore, for them, nothing is off the table and they will use any technique in order to win.

It staggers me how great an impact people like this have had in the world. Each of them comes into contact with thousands of people over their lifetime, and it’s like each of those people have been poisoned. They can spread their poison through generations of family members. It’s maddening. There is nothing that can anger me as much as considering the destruction that the narcissist in my life has wrought. Except perhaps what he COULD have wrought but didn’t.

 

[Deltadeliquent]

Even 12 years after the divorce and 10 years with a wonderful man, I STILL have trouble judging what’s a normal reaction. Sometimes a snide comment from a sister or acquaintance will leave me angry but I will spend weeks trying to figure out if my reaction is normal.
Do I have a right to be angry? Am I being too sensitive? Am I crazy?

Really does your head in when you have to check with others to see if you are normal. My hubby is very patient…

 

[Oh_Charlotte]

…
What is difficult to understand is that if the individual is a narcissist/sociopath, a normal person CAN NEVER WIN. NEVER. I can’t say that strongly enough. You will never, ever win the war. You might win one of the battles, if the person is off-balance enough. Or if they let you win one battle in order to get you to let your guard down and thereby hit you even harder the next battle. You will never win the war. Ever. You have a conscience and they have none. Therefore, for them, nothing is off the table and they will use any technique in order to win.

Yes, a good point! The author says don’t stoop to engaging with them because it will distract you from what you should be doing, but she should have also added, “and because you can NEVER WIN”! This is the truth. They are so much more practiced and yes, you might win a battle here and there if you catch them off guard but I think that only strengthens their resolve to find a way to create a battle asap so they can win it… So, yes, the best thing is to shut them out completely. Pray for them, of course. I pray for my ex and for everyone connected to his life every night, but I do not speak to him! (other than “Hello” and “Goodbye” and “how was your drive”… BRIEF polite words for the sake of my son).

…It staggers me how great an impact people like this have had in the world. Each of them comes into contact with thousands of people over their lifetime, and it’s like each of those people have been poisoned. They can spread their poison through generations of family members…

Yes, this is so true, its almost overwhelming. Then we can remember that also one kind act, one look of understanding for a suffering person, also has a huge ripple effect, so, living with joy and gratitude and being Christ in anyway we can in this very day is the thing we will never regret when we look back on our whole life someday.

 

[EasterJoy]

I do think it is very difficult for normal people to grasp the reality of a sociopath/psychopath’s inner void. We keep trying and trying to make things come out right, and it never can. The sociopath destroys the individuals around him/her; sometimes gradually, sometimes suddenly with a sudden malicious action.

What is difficult to understand is that if the individual is a narcissist/sociopath, a normal person CAN NEVER WIN. NEVER. I can’t say that strongly enough. You will never, ever win the war. You might win one of the battles, if the person is off-balance enough. Or if they let you win one battle in order to get you to let your guard down and thereby hit you even harder the next battle. You will never win the war. Ever. You have a conscience and they have none. Therefore, for them, nothing is off the table and they will use any technique in order to win.

It staggers me how great an impact people like this have had in the world. Each of them comes into contact with thousands of people over their lifetime, and it’s like each of those people have been poisoned. They can spread their poison through generations of family members. It’s maddening. There is nothing that can anger me as much as considering the destruction that the narcissist in my life has wrought. Except perhaps what he COULD have wrought but didn’t.

The thing is, the prevalence of sociopathic behaviors is far higher in the US than in some other cultures. It has been theorized that this is because Americans teach morality in terms of “how would you feel if someone did that to you?” That code of morality doesn’t work with someone who is not physically wired to be empathetic or who did not grow up with anyone caring about their feelings, where the concept of empathy was really just guilt-trips and parrot talk. For whatever reason, they just don’t get it, and many doubt that anyone else does, either. Because the cultural expectation is that everybody can imagine how other people feel, a sociopath can easily conclude that everyone is really pretending and using this concept of “feelings” to manipulate and control everyone else! They can come to believe that the “nice” people who don’t get that are just suckers who deserve what they get!! A feelings-based code of morality doesn’t teach them to feel for others. It teaches them to pretend feelings and understanding that they do not have and that most of them assume no one else has, either.

In contrast, other cultures with a low incidence of sociopathic acting out teach a morality based on self-respect or social expectations. You act in thus-and-so way because that is how decent people act, and if you don’t act that way you are not counted among decent people. If you are caught lying, you don’t deserve respect. You don’t have to understand how other people feel, you just have to understand that these are the expectations. If you fail, you don’t get to make excuses. In this case, sociopaths conform to social norms not because they care about other people, but because they care about getting the advantages of keeping the social contract. They can get “if you don’t treat each of us others in such-and-so-way, we will exclude you from our circle and deny you a place in the group.” You don’t have to have any feelings for anyone else to get that.

IOW, a sociopath is capable of making moral choices and understanding moral boundaries. They are not capable of feeling empathy. It is all in their heads; they don’t connect with other people emotionally. That makes the moral life more difficult, but it is not a moral fault, per se, and it does not mean they are doomed to be manipulators and liars. It does make them prone to that if they are unwittingly taught that lying and manipulating is a workable strategy for getting their needs met. Our society has developed a much higher tolerance for “white lies” and “little fudges with the truth” and a certain lack of integrity and poking our fingers in the eye of social expectation than in the past. We have, to a certain degree, started to value appearances over substance, and we give people a lot of excuses for moral failure. We are more ready to pity the transgressor than in the past. That is a culture in which people are less likely to be harmed by a rigid social structure that hands out draconian consequences for human failure, but it leaves people much more vulnerable to people who take advantage of an atmosphere where pity does not have to be earned. That is well worth remembering.

Of course, addictions can make people into liars and manipulators, too. The craving is given priority over everything else, not only the welfare of others but the welfare of the self. Again, though, if there are no natural consequences, the bad behavior prompted by the cravings is much harder to extinguish. That is why covering for an addict actually enables their pattern of bad decisions to keep going on and on. To compound matters, people born without empathy are also prone to thrill-seeking and addiction, so it isn’t rare to see all of this in the same package. Only the Last Judgment will uncover how much worse they did with the psychological equipment they got than we did, but as much as we can’t judge the sinner, we absolutely positively have to judge the pattern of sin when it comes to choosing whom we will trust. No offense, Mr. Wolf, but this little piggy is not going to stick around to see your nature act upon mine!!!

 

[TheRealJuliane]

I don’t necessarily accept that the US is the natural home of sociopaths. I believe these people exist in any society and perhaps the social mores keep them from expressing themselves in such an outward way. I just don’t know. All I know is, the farther I am from any of them, the better I feel.

 

[EasterJoy]

I don’t necessarily accept that the US is the natural home of sociopaths. I believe these people exist in any society and perhaps the social mores keep them from expressing themselves in such an outward way. I just don’t know. All I know is, the farther I am from any of them, the better I feel.

Still, if a person doesn’t connect with others emotionally, but because of the social structure they always show up for work, tell the truth, live within the boundaries of moral law, and do not make plays for the pity of the people they have wronged, then the natural lack of capacity to share feelings is partly compensated for by the social structure. No, they don’t tell their wives and children that they feel affectionate towards them, but if the family knows that they’re kind of a cold fish but can be depended upon, is that going to be a deal-breaker for everyone? I don’t think so.

The crazy-making comes from the strategies like lying, manipulating, undermining the belief the other has in herself, and gas lighting. If someone does not do that, not because they care about others but because they know the consequences for deceit are certain, swift, and lasting, well, at least the others in the social structure know what they’re up against. Plus, I think that in a culture where the Rule of Threes is the norm, far fewer people wind up married to someone who can’t manage to live within moral law. The sociopaths are out there, but when trust has to be earned over a long period of time with no tolerance for “mistakes”, where “forgiveness” is not equated with an unlimited willingness to reconcile with anybody regardless of the evidence they give of real contrition, they don’t get into positions of trust and they don’t do nearly as much damage.

But yes, even in a social structure that kept a sociopath within moral boundaries, it would still not be easy for most people to be married to someone who is for all practical purposes incapable of emotional intimacy. That would be missed, even if the sociopath did not “offend” in any way, yes.

 

[jbenade]

Well first I have to say that this place is way more fun and waaay more enlightening that silly Facebook!

So, a couple other things. First, we went to Mass this morning. The homily was uncanny in light of our past week, having to do with real love vs. “fake” love - fool’s gold and real gold. You get the idea. I was not sure if H was cringing or tearing up or what. And if he was tearing up, was it real or not. I don’t know. But I do know that he actually did not go to confession before taking communion today. I’m not judging the man. He can do whatever he wants, I suppose. I didn’t say a word of it. But I found it, for myself, anyway, striking because it made me wonder how “remorseful” he really was/is about shoving his wife around and locking her up in her own house.

At the same time, all during Church, he is being “overly nice,” helping me up, down, on these silly crutches. Which, of course, made me think of this whole sociopath thing again.

The other thing I was thinking about - and I have asked myself this question in the past - is that if a person is, indeed, a sociopath, which means they have no conscience, are they then (in the larger sense) accountable? In other words, would they be accountable in their own Particular Judgment? And if they have no conscience, then do they know the difference between doing good and doing evil? I would guess not, which is why I ask the accountability question.

EasterJoy, you are right. They are prevalent. As I stated in an earlier post, I know for sure my MIL is one (the stories I could tell you). And I believe my own father is. And sadly, as I married young - and practically the first man who took a second look at me - I think I married my father, in the metaphorical sense. I just keep replaying the same record.

 

[EasterJoy]

Well first I have to say that this place is way more fun and waaay more enlightening that silly Facebook!

So, a couple other things. First, we went to Mass this morning. The homily was uncanny in light of our past week, having to do with real love vs. “fake” love - fool’s gold and real gold. You get the idea. I was not sure if H was cringing or tearing up or what. And if he was tearing up, was it real or not. I don’t know. But I do know that he actually did not go to confession before taking communion today. I’m not judging the man. He can do whatever he wants, I suppose. I didn’t say a word of it. But I found it, for myself, anyway, striking because it made me wonder how “remorseful” he really was/is about shoving his wife around and locking her up in her own house.

At the same time, all during Church, he is being “overly nice,” helping me up, down, on these silly crutches. Which, of course, made me think of this whole sociopath thing again.

The other thing I was thinking about - and I have asked myself this question in the past - is that if a person is, indeed, a sociopath, which means they have no conscience, are they then (in the larger sense) accountable? In other words, would they be accountable in their own Particular Judgment? And if they have no conscience, then do they know the difference between doing good and doing evil? I would guess not, which is why I ask the accountability question.

EasterJoy, you are right. They are prevalent. As I stated in an earlier post, I know for sure my MIL is one (the stories I could tell you). And I believe my own father is. And sadly, as I married young - and practically the first man who took a second look at me - I think I married my father, in the metaphorical sense. I just keep replaying the same record.

A person does not have to have an emotional conscience to be accountable to moral law. They have to be sane, they have to be capable of making choices based on what they have made their priorities of good and bad. Deciding who is culpable is beyond our pay grade, though. Our job is merely to decide who is dependable. We can leave culpability to God. It makes things SO much easier!! If someone tries to tell you that they’re only bound to keep the part of moral law that “seems right” to them, though…well, of course we all know from our own experience that is a boundary made of tissue paper. Our moral fiber is proven by how we act when moral behavior is the last thing we feel like doing.

If you had a shark swimming around your boat, would you concern yourself with whether or not it was innocent? I don’t think so. You’d want to know if it was dangerous. I think sharks and wolves are innocent creatures acting according to instincts, but I’m not about to put myself in a position of letting one chew off my limbs one by one. All you need to know about your husband is whether or not it is at all reasonable to believe that he is trustworthy and whether or not it is reasonable to believe he will amend himself if nothing changes in how you deal with him. I think you have enough information to figure that out.

 

[bmaj]

Note to jbenade:
I tried to send you a private message, but it wouldn’t go through because it said your CAF in-box was too full and that you had to delete some messages or move the current ones around first to saved folders. Anyway, you should now be able to access the group you requested to join (“Women Suffering Because of Unchastity”), but if you can’t, please just let me know. I also left a welcome message at the bottom “wall” section of the group with some info which should help you get started. Sorry I didn’t respond sooner to your request, but I didn’t have internet for a few days.
Please know that you and all the group members remain in my prayers! Peace always, and God bless you and your family.

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

The other thing I was thinking about - and I have asked myself this question in the past - is that if a person is, indeed, a sociopath, which means they have no conscience, are they then (in the larger sense) accountable? In other words, would they be accountable in their own Particular Judgment? And if they have no conscience, then do they know the difference between doing good and doing evil? I would guess not, which is why I ask the accountability question.
.

I am beyond any doubt convinced that my father is a narcissist, and if I understand correctly that personality disorder shares many things with sociopaths.
Based on my own experience with my father I believe these people know something about right and wrong, and therefore are accountable. As Easter Joy has said, it is best to leave accountability with God and to focus on facts: the way your husband has behaved towards you over the years. Don’t think for a second that just because the ‘poor guy’ has no conscience and doesn’t have a clear understanding of right or wrong that you should allow him to abuse you. Easter Joy has done such a great job in using analogies such as dangerous animals. You don’t wonder why the dog that is attacking you has rabies and wonder* how *it got sick, you run away for your safety.

 

[jbenade]

So I want to address this “emotional affair” stuff that was posed on a different thread.

I see an emotional affair as two people engaging via phone or chat room that starts out friendly, becomes inappropriate at a certain point. And then - bing, bang, boom - they are in a hotel room somewhere taking the whole thing to the next level - a physical affair. (I know. My husband has had plenty of these).

But that is not always the case.

I have a male friend I have known since the 8th grade. We were never, ever romantic, boyfriend/girlfriend, even way back then. We were always just friends. Two of a handful of “nerds” in the class who loved the subject - history - and adored our teacher as a mentor/father, since all of us came from single parent (mother) homes.

When my own husband left me for another woman and was gone for months, D. (my male friend) held my hand (metaphorically speaking) throughout the entire ordeal. He, my mother and another female friends were all I had. ALL I had. Even my biological brother and sister, sister-in-law were conspicuously absent. Not even a phone call.

Since then (six years ago), we have remained close friends. Yes. We talk on the phone. We talk about the same stuff we talked about when we were those 13 year-old geeks, only more on the subjects of the day. That is, politics, history, philosophy.

D., after years of badgering, convinced me to go back to my roots of the Catholic Church. And in doing so, this brought my husband in, as well. D., of course knew that at some point I would have to have my marriage blessed by the Church.

In 2012, I went to see him. He lives 2000 away. Honest, as God is my witness, there wasn’t so much as hand-holding, except once to help me down a long flight of cement stairs from the - yes - you guessed it - museum.

We have a perfectly wonderful, enjoyable time catching up. And, oh, it was completely INNOCENT.

And no, husband was not happy. However, if you look at my history in these past posts, he has been a horrid husband and has had multiple affairs and has done so much I can’t go into because it would take a book to do so. And besides my head just spins thinking about all of it.

My point is, if anyone should want to have any kind of affair - or even a “revenge” affair, it would be me. But I didn’t. And I don’t plan on it.

Really, why would I want to put myself in that position? I value my faith. I value my soul and would not ever intentionally put it in jeopardy by such a stupid thing as an affair.

Emotionally, I am not “in love” with D. I love him as a friend, and a friend only, just as I love the other few friends I have who are female.

And if D. had any eye on me in this way, he sure didn’t show it on our visit. He was a perfect gentlemen. He is my sponsor in the Church, for goodness sake. And without his constant ribbing, I would not be in the Church. Nor would my husband (he had NO inclination towards taking us in that direction, even though he, himself, was a lapsed Catholic). And so therefore, we would not have been MARRIED in the Church if not for D.

D. was my life support. And he, more than my female friends, was a proponent of my marriage even through the worst of times. So what am I suppose to do? Throw him off the boat and say, "Well, thanks for all your help, D. But husbands doesn’t approve of my relationship with you, so have a nice life.

He asked me to come to see him on the 4th of July as he lives in a city that two history geeks would have a great time in on that day. But no. H. says no. And if I do it, he will pack his bags and leave. So I succumb, a prisoner in my house again. And again so as he will not create havoc in this house with the kids.

I know. I know. Under normal circumstances, in a normal marriage, I would understand this rule. But I’m not. I haven’t been. I’ve been through hell and continue to linger in it. I am between a rock and a hard place.

 

[EasterJoy]

…So what am I suppose to do? Throw him off the boat and say, "Well, thanks for all your help, D. But husbands doesn’t approve of my relationship with you, so have a nice life.

He asked me to come to see him on the 4th of July as he lives in a city that two history geeks would have a great time in on that day. But no. H. says no. And if I do it, he will pack his bags and leave. So I succumb, a prisoner in my house again. And again so as he will not create havoc in this house with the kids.

I know. I know. Under normal circumstances, in a normal marriage, I would understand this rule. But I’m not. I haven’t been. I’ve been through hell and continue to linger in it. I am between a rock and a hard place…

Generally speaking, I don’t keep friends if I think either my husband or his wife is uncomfortable with it. You can’t be a friend to the person without being a friend to the marriage, and sometimes that means bowing out or keeping it a couple-to-couple or couple-to-friend friendship. I, OTOH, do not have a controlling husband. If someone is married to someone controlling, such that any friend who is a real friend is seen as a threat, that rule becomes untenable. So yes, in that case you are in an unusual circumstance and have to discern what to do under a less simplistic standard.