Difficult marriage

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I have also put a lot of love and hard work into this house. Painting, wallpapering, garden, custom draperies that I made. I’ve been here for 14 years. It’s where my kids mostly grew up.

I’m just afraid to let go.

Plus, my standing in the Church. Plus, will God be angry with me that I didn’t stick this out, bear my cross with grace as He did for us.
 
The day gets worse as H picked up my daughter, took her to her favorite restaurant, and shopping. She came home giving me a cold shoulder.

Two days ago H went to visit middle son at work. Obviously they had a chat because my son now accuses me of treating his father badly (I’m taming the language he actually used). It was obvious that H told him about a conversation we had had a couple of days ago.

In other words, H is going around me in the 72 hrs, getting to the kids and bending their ears to get them on “his side.” I’m trying not to say much to the kids because it’s bad enough H is manipulating, trying to put them in the middle.

Then he will come home tomorrow and act all nicey nice to me. It will be all I can do not to explode on him.

This is getting old. Really old.
 
In other words, H is going around me in the 72 hrs, getting to the kids and bending their ears to get them on “his side.” I’m trying not to say much to the kids because it’s bad enough H is manipulating, trying to put them in the middle.
Don’t allow this. Don’t manipulate them just tell them the truth. There is a difference. I am certain that deep down inside they know there is something wrong with his behaviour but are maybe afraid to admit it to themselves.

It was the same with my parents. I knew there was something going on with my father when I was around your kids’ age. I didn’t know the details - that he was a serial adulterer- but I knew things were not right. That is a very difficult thing to experience for children, no matter if they are grown or not. I couldn’t face reality so I trusted the parent who was sweeter to me at that point. Unfortunately, it was my dad, with his expensive gifts and his disgusting lies. It made me feel better, more safe. My mom was in too much emotional pain to pay any attention to me and I completely distanced myself from her. It took me 10 years to see it all for what it was. I can’t tell you how sorry I was - and still am- for falling for my father’s lies and manipulation, and for not being there for my mother when he left her for another woman.

I’m telling you this so you understand that your husband is playing dirty and he is now turning the children against you. Don’t allow this. I’m sure you want to protect them but they need to know the truth. I’m not saying they should know all the filthy details of his affairs and addictions, but tell them the truth about yourself. Even if they act in a strange way for a while, that could be because they are hurt by what is happening between you and their father. But in the long run it would make it easier for them to support the mother who suffered so much. Don’t be bullied and manipulated by him. Don’t be afraid of him.
 
“Sometimes you have to blow up the life you have, to have the life that’s waiting for you.”
 
Jbenabe I hate to say it but if you stay as you are and the kids eventually leave, your house could become your prison. You have very likely many, many decades ahead of you. Don’t be like my friends mom who finally divorced her unfaithful and abusive husband last year when she was in her 70s. The worst reason not to change things is fear. You have raised a family, you do not lack skills. There are also many ways you can pick up skills quickly - check out what health care careers are accessible after just two years of community college. I am starting a new career in my 40s and it is working out really well - you just have to start out small in the direction you want to go and keep going.

I would also second being honest with your children. They are adults, you don’t have to hide things from them anymore. You obviously shouldn’t overshare but let them know this has been going on for a long time and you’re thinking very seriously about separation.

Don’t be a martyr when God is not asking you to be one! Instead he may be calling you to a new life. Do not be afraid!
 
Thank you everyone.

I came to Catholic Forums because, obviously, I am Catholic, and I want to do the right thing. I need reassurance that it’s OK to leave a marriage.

I do need time, however. I have no resources. Not even my own car. I need to take time and study for a Praxis Test to get my teacher’s license in my state.

As far as legal action, I’m unsure. Do I divorce him in the courts for protection? For alimony? I know the Church won’t recognize it.

Probably I should just take this one step at a time, and keep it under my hat.

In the meantime, he is probably on his way home now. I need to remain calm. I don’t think I will even mention that I know how he has been manipulating the kids as it will turn into another big argument. He will defend, deflect, minimize and lie. Just like he always does. So really, what’s the point?

I have to find the strength to live under these conditions for at least a time - six months, a year, maybe, to get on my feet.

Please pray for me.
 
…As far as legal action, I’m unsure. Do I divorce him in the courts for protection? For alimony? I know the Church won’t recognize it…
This is absolutely untrue. Canon law allows a member of the faithful to separate with the bond remaining on their own authority if there is imminent danger to their person or the person of any of their children. The Church also holds that a civil divorce is morally permissible when it is required for the just division of assets and responsible support of children, even when the marriage is still presumed valid. The truth is, the Church will not even investigate a request to examine the validity of a marriage if there has not been a divorce yet, since it the investigation itself could cause an alienation of affection between the spouses.

Children also experience abuse of one of their parents by the other as abuse on themselves. You absolutely should not stay with a spouse who abuses you with the idea that the children could benefit. All abuse between spouses absolutely must stop, or the children will suffer.

Speak to your pastor about this. You and your children are in real danger. You not only may act, but you may have a moral responsibility to get yourself and your children away from your spouse as soon as possible. If that must be on your own authority, without the counsel of your pastor, because you perceive grave harm may be imminent, you can do that.

Art. 2.

SEPARATION WITH THE BOND REMAINING

**Can. 1151 **Spouses have the duty and right to preserve conjugal living unless a legitimate cause excuses them…

Can. 1153 §1. If either of the spouses causes grave mental or physical danger to the other spouse or to the offspring or otherwise renders common life too difficult, that spouse gives the other a legitimate cause for leaving, either by decree of the local ordinary or even on his or her own authority if there is danger in delay.

**§2. **In all cases, when the cause for the separation ceases, conjugal living must be restored unless ecclesiastical authority has established otherwise.

**Can. 1154 **After the separation of the spouses has taken place, the adequate support and education of the children must always be suitably provided…

From the Catechism:
**2383 **The separation of spouses while maintaining the marriage bond can be legitimate in certain cases provided for by canon law. (176)
If civil divorce remains the only possible way of ensuring certain legal rights, the care of the children, or the protection of inheritance, it can be tolerated and does not constitute a moral offense.
 
Thank you everyone.

I came to Catholic Forums because, obviously, I am Catholic, and I want to do the right thing. I need reassurance that it’s OK to leave a marriage.

I do need time, however. I have no resources. Not even my own car. I need to take time and study for a Praxis Test to get my teacher’s license in my state.

As far as legal action, I’m unsure. Do I divorce him in the courts for protection? For alimony? ** I know the Church won’t recognize it.**

Probably I should just take this one step at a time, and keep it under my hat.

In the meantime, he is probably on his way home now. I need to remain calm. I don’t think I will even mention that I know how he has been manipulating the kids as it will turn into another big argument. He will defend, deflect, minimize and lie. Just like he always does. So really, what’s the point?

I have to find the strength to live under these conditions for at least a time - six months, a year, maybe, to get on my feet.

Please pray for me.
jbenade, I’m still learning my way around Catholic marriage, divorce and annulment. Your sentence that I bolded, is, I think, incorrect. The Catholic church recognises that there are cases where divorce is the step to take, and in your case where there has been physical abuse, this is one of those cases.
 
Wow, thank you, EJ. I should have looked that up myself. But my head has been spinning for days now.

To be clear, I don’t want to misrepresent H. Until a few nights ago, he has never been physically abusive. Shoving me away from the door when I tried to leave twice (assault?) and NOT allowing me to leave my house (false imprisonment?). I did not press charges.

As far as emotional abuse, that has been going on for years.

Thank you again.
 
Wow, thank you, EJ. I should have looked that up myself. But my head has been spinning for days now.

To be clear, I don’t want to misrepresent H. Until a few nights ago, he has never been physically abusive. Shoving me away from the door when I tried to leave twice (assault?) and NOT allowing me to leave my house (false imprisonment?). I did not press charges.

As far as emotional abuse, that has been going on for years.

Thank you again.
It is totally normal to want to be entirely fair about this kind of allegation, and of course the prospect of having to separate your family will make your head spin. It is not as if there is no affection between you, or nothing worth saving. Spouses who abuse their spouses are rarely without their good points. Some are even very generous in every way except how they handle frustration, and exemplary except when they are not. Still, the behaviors you are describing are never acceptable, not even once, not for any reason except perhaps in the case of keeping you in the house if you had expressed thoughts of harming yourself or others. It simply cannot be tolerated, no matter how many other good points the offender exhibits.

Emotional abuse is real abuse, there is a reason that canon law specifically includes mental harm, and it does harm children to have to witness any kind of abuse of a parent. If you are very much concerned that it has escalated to physical abuse, you are totally right. Do not second-guess that. I would advise finding counseling from the experts in your area who counsel spouses in your situation (some of whom are men). They have experience gleaned from far too many abused spouses, and they can help you avoid tragic mistakes. Don’t go this alone; others have reported what they suffered and things they wished they had known at the time precisely so that you don’t have to repeat what they went through.

Hang in there! Do not hesitate to share your situation with others you love, so they can support you. You need help, you need support. Of course you don’t want to bad-mouth your husband or expose embarrassing parts of your life, but going it alone can expose you and your children to suffering that could have been avoided, had you been willing to admit your situation to those who would be willing to help you.
 
I am not a lawyer, but will post based on my experience.
I was a stay at home mom with an 8 year old. Ihad a degree, but had never worked during the marriage. We lived in Oregon. We had been married 17 years and I was 40 years old.

I was awarded half the pension accounts, bank accounts and investments… I got the money in cash. The house was sold and the proceeds split 50/50.

I was awarded alimony for five years. He made quite a good salary and they included his bonuses and stock options as income. I got enough each month to pay for all bills and a mortage. I was not rich, but I was OK. They took into account how long he had worked, what the normal expectations for his type of career were and his education. They contrasted that to my education, my career expectations given that I was not trained for anything specific even though I had a degree and the fact that I had not worked during the marriage. In other words, the judge understood what I was up against: starting training and a career at 40 is very different from being trained already and in the middle of a lucrative career as my husband was.

What I want to say to you is that the courts DO understand that your standing in the world is very different than your husbands standing and you will need to resources to get yourself into a productive position in society. I would make a commitment to getting training in something specific or a degree in a particular field. It wouldn’t be unheard of for the husband to have to pay for that over and above the split in the marital assets.

If you want to end the marriage, please speak to a good lawyer in your county. They will be able to assure you that yu will not be left sleeping under a bridge. I know it’s scary, but if it really time to go… You might as well make it a time of renewal and independence.
Good luck…

Oh and for the record, my husband was emotionally abusive for the whole marriage. I did not recognise it as such but thought that he was right and something was wrong with me. He was clearly not happy with me, so I must be as deficient as he said I was…

The night after we buried our 6 year old daughter after she drowned at a birthday party, I was drugged so I could sleep as I had been every night since the death.
He raped me and I was not able to fight back.

After this I could no longer tell myself that it was me that was the problem.
If your husband is abusive emotionally or physically, that is about him, not you. He will not change, and you need to.

You need to get angry and protect yourself. You deserve so much better.
 
I am not a lawyer, but will post based on my experience.
I was a stay at home mom with an 8 year old. Ihad a degree, but had never worked during the marriage. We lived in Oregon. We had been married 17 years and I was 40 years old.

I was awarded half the pension accounts, bank accounts and investments… I got the money in cash. The house was sold and the proceeds split 50/50.

I was awarded alimony for five years. He made quite a good salary and they included his bonuses and stock options as income. I got enough each month to pay for all bills and a mortage. I was not rich, but I was OK. They took into account how long he had worked, what the normal expectations for his type of career were and his education. They contrasted that to my education, my career expectations given that I was not trained for anything specific even though I had a degree and the fact that I had not worked during the marriage. In other words, the judge understood what I was up against: starting training and a career at 40 is very different from being trained already and in the middle of a lucrative career as my husband was.

What I want to say to you is that the courts DO understand that your standing in the world is very different than your husbands standing and you will need to resources to get yourself into a productive position in society. I would make a commitment to getting training in something specific or a degree in a particular field. It wouldn’t be unheard of for the husband to have to pay for that over and above the split in the marital assets.

If you want to end the marriage, please speak to a good lawyer in your county. They will be able to assure you that yu will not be left sleeping under a bridge. I know it’s scary, but if it really time to go… You might as well make it a time of renewal and independence.
Good luck…

Oh and for the record, my husband was emotionally abusive for the whole marriage. I did not recognise it as such but thought that he was right and something was wrong with me. He was clearly not happy with me, so I must be as deficient as he said I was…

The night after we buried our 6 year old daughter after she drowned at a birthday party, I was drugged so I could sleep as I had been every night since the death.
He raped me and I was not able to fight back.

After this I could no longer tell myself that it was me that was the problem.
If your husband is abusive emotionally or physically, that is about him, not you. He will not change, and you need to.

You need to get angry and protect yourself. You deserve so much better.
She has to assume her marriage is valid, because right now it enjoys the presumption of validity, but she should not presume that her marriage was sustainable for a lifetime if she obtains a morally-permissible divorce. If it was not sustainable on the day they married, it is not valid. Even if her marriage is valid, because her marriage was unsustainable by her husband’s choices after the vows were made and not because of conditions that always existed from the start, she still has the right to live in peace, which if he is abusive, means physically and legally safe from his grasp.

Emotional abuse that escalates to physical abuse and physical control is very seriously dangerous. She should not underestimate how important prompt action might turn out to be. This could be life or death, and certainly could be a matter of avoiding abuse that will haunt her for a lifetime even though it leaves her alive, such as you suffered.
 
Just to let you know…I didn’t have any resources either. But I did have a debit card. First thing I did was To get my own PO box and started to receive mail there. Even when it was only junk mail, it made me feel like a complete person instead of the part of him I always had been.

I also got a bank account in my name only. With some cash I had saved up from groceries.

Then one day he handed me a check to be deposited, $5000.00 some stock thing from his company. I screwed up my courage and deposited the check, they went to the window and took out $5000.00. I deposited that into MY account. And I eventually used that to pay my lawyer when I got one.

I can’t say any of it was easy. I’m normally a very passive person and I can be pushed around a lot before I push back. But that night after we buried our Isabeau… Well, it got easier to stand up for myself.

A friend once asked me whilst I was agonising over all of this: " do you think this sort of relationship be good enough for your daughter?" If not good enough for her, why is it good enough for YOU?"

Made complete sense to me for the first time. I am now happily married to a completely different sort of man and we have been together for 10 years now. We are still madly in love.

I said it once before: sometimes you have to blow up the life you have, to get the life that’s waiting for you.

I’m not commenting on the Catholic aspect of all of this, but on the secular and mental health aspect of your situation. It is up to you to make the decision you need to for yourself. But I’m telling you, there is life after divorce, and often it is wonderful!
 
So there’s no duty to stay? If there’s danger I know you have to take care of yourself and children, but are you guys sure we don’t have to stay with emotional abuse? Do we first have to exhaust all efforts, such as counseling?

Im wondering, does anyone know how common this is, to be this miserable in a marriage? It seems rare to read about it on CAF.

Sorry for jumping in. Im searching for answers too.
 
So there’s no duty to stay? If there’s danger I know you have to take care of yourself and children, but are you guys sure we don’t have to stay with emotional abuse? Do we first have to exhaust all efforts, such as counseling?

Im wondering, does anyone know how common this is, to be this miserable in a marriage? It seems rare to read about it on CAF.

Sorry for jumping in. Im searching for answers too.
It is earnestly to be hoped that a couple having marital difficulties will make every effort to reconcile, but there is a reason that mental abuse is included in canon law as a permissible reason to separate with the bond remaining. Mental abuse is real abuse, and it is considered child abuse to force a child to witness it. Many people who have been through both emotional abuse and physical abuse would choose the physical trauma of physical abuse as preferable to the degradation of emotional abuse. Degradation can put in much deeper wounds, and harder to heal. You also aren’t nearly so likely to second-guess whether physical abuse was your fault or somehow rationalize that you may have deserved it. A habit of emotional abuse also prepares the abuser to eventually commit physical abuse, making emotional abuse not only a sin, but a near occasion of the sin of physical abuse, perhaps to the point of murder. No one deserves to be abused by their spouse, but even the abusing spouse does damage to himself (or herself). It is better to deny the offending spouse opportunities to abuse or to rationalize that the abuse is OK. (IOW, I don’t mean walking on pins and needles so that it becomes your job to keep him from abusing. I mean it is actually good for him when you draw boundaries about what treatment you will and will not accept when there is a conflict between you.)

It is very possible to be miserable in a valid marriage without abuse, and not every couple that fights in non-productive ways is committing emotional abuse. Causing undue stress and committing abuse aren’t quite the same thing. Unhappiness alone is not a valid reason to separate with the bond remaining, nor is it proof that a marriage is not valid. Still, a person has a right to live in peace, and if a couple finds that no amount of effort will allow them to live in peace, their pastor will usually agree that they are better off living separately, even if their bond still remains.

Don’t go through this alone. Talk to your pastor and also get counseling for yourself. The victims of abuse very often lose perspective about what is happening to them. That is not their fault, but it can keep them from acting when they need to act, for the temporal and eternal good of both parties to the marriage.

PS Your choice of forum name concerns me, BTW
 
Surely staying an an abusive marriage cannot be good for either party.
She needs to go for her safety and sanity, and he needs to know that his outrageous behaviour has consequences and will not be tolerated in a loving relationship. If he thinks this is a true marriage, he is badly mistaken.

The OP has already stated that she realises she should stay celibate if she leaves, if her marriage cannot be annulled. That is very sad, I think, for the OP has shown herself to be an interesting, thoughtful and productive person. But if she leaves she is fully aware of the consequences to her status in the Faith.

As I said before, I do not seek to advocate for divorce, but only to make the OP understand that IF she leaves the courts will not leave her destitute and without resources. Not only is it true, but my words are meant to allow her to actually make a decision, rather than hanging on because she has nowhere to go.

Peace
 
Surely staying an an abusive marriage cannot be good for either party.
No, you’re absolutely right. If you do nothing that can reasonably be expected to stop someone who is seriously sinning against you, you become a near occasion of sin for them. That doesn’t make it your fault if they sin again–Heaven forbid!–but OTOH you can’t assume you’re doing them some good by presenting that temptation. They need motivation to change, not to keep on doing the same thing they’ve been doing.

When the Lord was struck by the temple guard, he said, “If I have spoken wrongly, testify to the wrong; but if I have spoken rightly, why do you strike me?” (John 18:23). When the crowds tried to stone him, he didn’t just stick around and take it. He walked away from their midst. It is Christ-like to avoid abuse, provided that by avoiding abuse you are not abdicating the truth you are bound to give witness to.
 
Wow, you all are amazing. Easter, I am learning a lot from you. Thank you.

I have always had a problem with boundaries, obviously. Six years ago in the wake of his “blow up” affair, after leaving the home for several months and taking a huge chunk of our 401K with him, our lives were turned upside down. I went through years of counseling. Some of it good; some of it not so good. Really I don’t know how I’ve survived it. It’s been daunting and filled with despair.

H came home several hours ago. I remained calm. I told him if the physical abuse happens again, I WILL press charges. He did not like that. Not one bit. He also minimized his actions and said that I swung at him, which is completely untrue. I was reaching for the door handle. That’s all. After I fell down the stairs, I refused his help. But I never “took a swing” at him. Besides, I am a 4’11" small framed woman. H is stocky and very strong. He was also “insulted” by me having him leave for 72 hours and “insulted” that I said he needed to stay away because I told him he was a danger to me and to the kids.

He brought to the conversation one time I did put my fist to his chest. It was after I had found out the the affair, which I was told had ended in May of that year, did not actually end until November of that year. Yeah, I guess you could say I was a little upset, having been duped again.

He gave the usual speech about how he will try and be better, that he doesn’t want to be without me, that he wants our family to stay together. I think he means it. He just doesn’t know how. And I told him that.

I also told him that I have little hope, that I am proceeding in a manner which will gain for myself some financial independence.

He cried, made promises. But I’ve heard and seen it all before. It’s very sad. But really, I can’t keep doing this. It is painful, absurd, and futile.
 
Your husband may not be a sociopath (a person who does not have a true emotional capacity for empathy) who is making shows of caring only to manipulate you, but he might be. I find the attempts to blame you as an excuse for what he did, coupled with pity-grabbing tears that are primarily about not what you’re going through but what he might have to go through if you enforce consequences for his behavior as very big red flags. You might want to look on the internet for information about dealing with manipulative personalities.

Martha Stout wrote a book titled “The Sociopath Next Door”. Here are her rules for dealing with a manipulative person who does not care what they do to other people.

Thirteen Rules for Dealing with Sociopaths in Everyday Life

1.The first rule involves the bitter pill of accepting that some people literally have no conscience, and that these people do not often look like Charles Manson or a Ferengi bartender. They look like us.

2.In a contest between your instincts and what is implied by the role a person has taken on – educator, doctor, leader, animal-lover, humanist, parent – go with your instincts.

Whether you want to be or not, you are a constant observer of human behavior, and your unfiltered impressions, though alarming and seemingly outlandish, may well help you out if you will let them. Your best self understands, without being told, that impressive and moral-sounding labels do not bestow conscience on anyone who did not have it to begin with.

3.When considering a new relationship of any kind, practice the Rule of Threes regarding the claims and promises a person makes, and the responsibilities he or she has.

Make the Rule of Threes your personal policy. One lie, one broken promise, or a single neglected responsibility may be a misunderstanding instead. Two may involve a serious mistake. But three lies says you’re dealing with a liar, and deceit is the linchpin of conscienceless behavior. Cut your losses and get out as soon as you can. Leaving, though it may be hard, will be easier now than later, and less costly.

Do not give your money, your work, your secrets, or your affection to a three-timer. Your valuable gifts will be wasted.

4.Question authority.
Once again – trust your own instincts and anxieties, especially those concerning people who claim that dominating others, violence, war, or some other violation of your conscience is the grand solution to some problem. Do this even when, or especially when, everyone around you has completely stopped questioning authority. Recite to yourself what Stanley Milgram taught us about obedience. (At least six out of ten people will blindly obey a present, official-looking authority to the bitter end.) The good news is that having social support makes people somewhat more likely to challenge authority. Encourage those around you to question, too.

5.Suspect flattery.
Compliments are lovely, especially when they are sincere. In contrast, flattery is extreme, and appeals to our egos in unrealistic ways. It is the material of counterfeit charm, and nearly always involves an intent to manipulate. Manipulation through flattery is sometimes innocuous and sometimes sinister. Peek over your massaged ego and remember to suspect flattery. This “flattery rule” applies on an individual basis, and also at the level of groups and even whole nations. Throughout all of human history and to the present, the call to war has included the flattering claim that one’s own forces are about to accomplish a victory that will change the world for the better, a triumph that is morally laudable, justified by its humane outcome, unique in human endeavor, righteous, and worthy of enormous gratitude. Since we began to record the human story, all of our major wars have been framed in this way, on all sides of the conflict, and in all languages the adjective most often applied to the word war is the word holy. An argument can easily be made that humanity will have peace when nations of people are at last able to see through this masterful flattery.

6.If necessary, redefine your concept of respect.
Too often, we mistake fear for respect, and the more fearful we are of someone, the more we view him or her as deserving of our respect.

I have a spotted Bengal cat who was named Muscle Man by my daughter when she was a toddler, because even as a kitten he looked like a professional wrestler. Grown now, he is much larger than most other domestic cats. His formidable claws resemble those of his Asian leopard-cat ancestors, but by temperament, he is gentle and peace-loving. My neighbor has a little calico who visits. Evidently the calico’s predatory charisma is huge, and she is brilliant at directing the evil eye at other cats. Whenever she is within fifty feet, Muscle Man, all fifteen pounds of him to her seven, cringes and crouches in fear and feline deference.

Muscle Man is a splendid cat. He is warm and loving, and he is close to my heart. Nonetheless, I would like to believe that some of his reactions are more primitive than mine. I hope I do not mistake fear for respect, because to do so would be to ensure my own victimization. Let us use our big human brains to overpower our animal tendency to bow to predators, so we can disentangle the reflexive confusion of anxiety and awe. In a perfect world, human respect would be an automatic reaction only to those who are strong, kind, and morally courageous. The person who profits from frightening you is not likely to be any of these.

The resolve to keep respect separate from fear is even more crucial for groups and nations. The politician, small or lofty, who menaces the people with frequent reminders of the possibility of crime, violence, or terrorism, and who then uses their magnified fear to gain allegiance is more likely to be a successful con artist than a legitimate leader. This too has been true throughout human history. (cont)
 
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