Difficult OT passages 2

[Dark_Warrior]

Numbers 32: 17-18, “But all the women children, who have not known man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.”

I’m told that because of this, Moses was a rapist and child molester. But I’d like to know the language orginially here, did children really mean 10, 11, 12, or 13?

Also, after the slaughter, what else were the Jews to do, leave all the untouched women stranded?

Finally, Deuteronomy 22:28-29, “if a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father then he must marry the young woman because he violate her and he will never be allowed to divorve her.”

With this last one, I especially didn’t know what to say, and the atheist who confronted me–a woman-- blew me to smitherines it felt. It was like I had a BB gun, and she fired back a bazooka! Lol.

I want to learn all I can, so help would be appreciated.

 

[1ke]

Numbers 32: 17-18, “But all the women children, who have not known man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.”

I’m told that because of this, Moses was a rapist and child molester. But I’d like to know the language orginially here, did children really mean 10, 11, 12, or 13?

Also, after the slaughter, what else were the Jews to do, leave all the untouched women stranded?

Please read the entire chapter, and surrounding chapters, and all of Exodus. Think critically.

The Israelites were to take the Promised Land and rid it of the tribes worshiping false Gods. They were supposed to slay EVERYONE, man, woman, and child. They did not. They kept the women and children as slaves. Moses ordered the male children and the women killed, but the young girls could be kept as slaves.

This was common practice in the ancient world. The male children could rise up to seek revenge for the killing of their fathers, they were a danger to keep alive. The foreign women were a temptation to inter-marry and this had proven disasterous for Israel in the past. The women had introduced their foreign gods and influenced their Israelite husbands. God had forbidden the Israelites to intermarry or to take these foreign women.

The girls were kept as slaves, read later in the chapter the listing of all the property and what was given over to the Levites. The girls are in the same list with the animals. They were to be servants. But because they were young, they could be taught Israel’s ways and wouldn’t pollute Israel religiously.

Where does the bible say these children were raped? Nowhere.

Finally, Deuteronomy 22:28-29, “if a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father then he must marry the young woman because he violate her and he will never be allowed to divorve her.”

With this last one, I especially didn’t know what to say, and the atheist who confronted me–a woman-- blew me to smitherines it felt. It was like I had a BB gun, and she fired back a bazooka! Lol.

I want to learn all I can, so help would be appreciated.

Why didn’t you know what to say? Why were you blown to smitherines?

The ancient world was a hostile place. If a man dishonored a woman, he was required to marry her. These were the laws the Irsraelites made to deal with various infractions and transgressions against one another.

And, the translation you provide that states the man “raped” her is not universally accepted. There are some who interpret this passage more along the lines of “seduces” not “rapes.” But, even if it is rape, taking her by force, I still don’t see what your problem is.

 

[StCsDavid]

Numbers (RSV) 32

17 but we will take up arms, ready to go before the people of Israel, until we have brought them to their place; and our little ones shall live in the fortified cities because of the inhabitants of the land. 18 We will not return to our homes until the people of Israel have inherited each his inheritance.

What bible are you studying? Not seeing a reference to Moses the rapist here?

Deuteronomy (RSV) 22
28 "If a man meets a virgin who is not betrothed, and seizes her and lies with her, and they are found, 29 then the man who lay with her shall give to the father of the young woman fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife, because he has violated her; he may not put her away all his days.

The Latin in this passage does not imply rape. I am curious, again, which bible you are using.

 

[Nita]

Finally, Deuteronomy 22:28-29, “if a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father then he must marry the young woman because he violate her and he will never be allowed to divorve her.”

With this last one, I especially didn’t know what to say, and the atheist who confronted me–a woman-- blew me to smitherines it felt. It was like I had a BB gun, and she fired back a bazooka! Lol.

I want to learn all I can, so help would be appreciated.

Well, you might tell that atheist woman friend that God cares about women. In a pagan culture where no doubt it was acceptable to take a woman sexually and then abandon her (else there would have been no need for God to give the law in vs 28-29), God insures that the woman will have a respectable position (wife) and be taken care of for the rest of her life. In those days, unmarried women had a difficult life; she couldn’t just run out and get a job to support herself as unmarried women today can! And this woman, with it being public knowledge that she was no longer a virgin, would undoubtably have been rejected as marriageable by other men. Also possible that she would have been looked down on by others in her village.

I can’t imagine why any woman would be upset about this regulation - atheist or not.

 

[anon5216]

Please read the entire chapter, and surrounding chapters, and all of Exodus.
Think critically.

The Israelites were to take the Promised Land and rid it of the tribes worshiping false Gods. They were supposed to slay EVERYONE, man, woman, and child. They did not.

I see. The Israelites claimed to worship a god that told them they were supposed to murder every non-Israelite man, woman and child who wasn’t loyal to this so-called Israelite god.

They kept the women and children as slaves. Moses ordered the male children and the women killed, but the young girls could be kept as slaves.

I see. The Israelite god permits slavery.

This was common practice in the ancient world. The male children could rise up to seek revenge for the killing of their fathers, they were a danger to keep alive. The foreign women were a temptation to inter-marry and this had proven disasterous for Israel in the past. The women had introduced their foreign gods and influenced their Israelite husbands. God had forbidden the Israelites to intermarry or to take these foreign women.

The girls were kept as slaves, read later in the chapter the listing of all the property and what was given over to the Levites. The girls are in the same list with the animals. They were to be servants. But because they were young, they could be taught Israel’s ways and wouldn’t pollute Israel religiously.

I see. The Israelites see non-Israelite humans as mere animals.

Where does the bible say these children were raped? Nowhere.

In your later comment you acknowledge that there are scholars who do interpret the word “rape” as a correct translation in this disputed area.

Why didn’t you know what to say? Why were you blown to smitherines?

The ancient world was a hostile place. If a man dishonored a woman, he was required to marry her. These were the laws the Irsraelites made to deal with various infractions and transgressions against one another.

I see. In this ancient hostile world, the Israelites made various laws and then proceeded to claim these laws actually were dictated by their god.

And, the translation you provide that states the man “raped” her is not universally accepted. There are some who interpret this passage more along the lines of “seduces” not “rapes.” But, even if it is rape, taking her by force, I still don’t see what your problem is.

I see. You don’t see the problem in a god that allows rape, as long as the victim is not a “chosen people” of that god.

Why didn’t Dark Warrior know what to say?

I don’t know. Maybe they have a conscience and think critically ?

 

[1ke]

I see. The Israelites claimed to worship a god that told them they were supposed to murder every non-Israelite man, woman and child who wasn’t loyal to this so-called Israelite god.

I see. The Israelite god permits slavery.

I see. The Israelites see non-Israelite humans as mere animals.

In your later comment you acknowledge that there are scholars who do interpret the word “rape” as a correct translation in this disputed area.

I see. In this ancient hostile world, the Israelites made various laws and then proceeded to claim these laws actually were dictated by their god.

I see. You don’t see the problem in a god that allows rape, as long as the victim is not a “chosen people” of that god.

Why didn’t Dark Warrior know what to say?

I don’t know. Maybe they have a conscience and think critically ?

No, you don’t see anything at all.

 

[1ke]

I see. The Israelites claimed to worship a god that told them they were supposed to murder every non-Israelite man, woman and child who wasn’t loyal to this so-called Israelite god.

God is the author of life. So, yes, he holds the power of life and death over every thing that is. It is his to give, it is his to take. Our existence, our life, and every second we have on this earth are His, not ours.

I see. The Israelite god permits slavery.

God allows free will. Slavery is not part of God’s plan for humanity. People chose to make slaves of others, and God permits us to exercise our free will. Moses allowed the Israelites to take slaves. Moses also allowed divorce, which did not come from God.

You seem to be confusing human laws and divine laws.

I see. The Israelites see non-Israelite humans as mere animals.

No. The Israelites saw them as property, just as Southern slave owners did in this country less than 200 years ago.

In your later comment you acknowledge that there are scholars who do interpret the word “rape” as a correct translation in this disputed area.

Yes, of course.

I see. In this ancient hostile world, the Israelites made various laws and then proceeded to claim these laws actually were dictated by their god.

No. This is not accurate. They did not proceed to claim the laws were dictated by God.

There is a difference between the divine law and civil law. The Israelites created a code of law that contained the Divine Law and human civil law that guided their society and also religious and ceremonial law governing how they worshiped. The Bible contains all three of those.

I see. You don’t see the problem in a god that allows rape, as long as the victim is not a “chosen people” of that god.

God allows us free will, and some people exercise that free will to commit evil acts such as sexual assault.

The passage regarding taking to wife an unmarried woman who was dishonored (either willingly or unwillingly) was talking about *Israelite *women, not foreign women. This is a law governing the Israelite society.

Why didn’t Dark Warrior know what to say?

I don’t know. Maybe they have a conscience and think critically ?

Seems you do not have much in the way of bible study under your belt. Perhaps you should study it in detail and then get back with us.

 

[anon5216]

God is the author of life. So, yes, he holds the power of life and death over every thing that is. It is his to give, it is his to take. Our existence, our life, and every second we have on this earth are His, not ours.

The god of the old testament hardly sounds like the author of life.
This is a human created god, in the image and likeness of fairly barbaric humans.

God allows free will. Slavery is not part of God’s plan for humanity. People chose to make slaves of others, and God permits us to exercise our free will. Moses allowed the Israelites to take slaves. Moses also allowed divorce, which did not come from God.

You seem to be confusing human laws and divine laws.

Religions constantly confuse human and divine - typically making up human ideas and claiming divine source for them.

No. The Israelites saw them as property, just as Southern slave owners did in this country less than 200 years ago.

And why would anyone want to take the god they made up seriously?

Yes, of course.

(Reference to rape being OK.)

No. This is not accurate. They did not proceed to claim the laws were dictated by God.

There is a difference between the divine law and civil law. The Israelites created a code of law that contained the Divine Law and human civil law that guided their society and also religious and ceremonial law governing how they worshiped. The Bible contains all three of those.

The key words here are “the Israelites created…”

God allows us free will, and some people exercise that free will to commit evil acts such as sexual assault.

The passage regarding taking to wife an unmarried woman who was dishonored (either willingly or unwillingly) was talking about *Israelite *women, not foreign women. This is a law governing the Israelite society.

Seems you do not have much in the way of bible study under your belt. Perhaps you should study it in detail and then get back with us.

Why study a document that is so obviously contrived and false (as far as God is concerned)?
The old testament is comprised of political propaganda used for building a national consciousness. Standard strategy in the ancient world.

The biggest mistake the early christians made was to define some of these earlier writings as divinely sourced or inspired and call it scripture.

 

[Dark_Warrior]

The god of the old testament hardly sounds like the author of life.
This is a human created god, in the image and likeness of fairly barbaric humans.

Religions constantly confuse human and divine - typically making up human ideas and claiming divine source for them.

And why would anyone want to take the god they made up seriously?

(Reference to rape being OK.)

The key words here are “the Israelites created…”

Why study a document that is so obviously contrived and false (as far as God is concerned)?
The old testament is comprised of political propaganda used for building a national consciousness. Standard strategy in the ancient world.

The biggest mistake the early christians made was to define some of these earlier writings as divinely sourced or inspired and call it scripture.

Seems you’re making the mistake of emotionalism.

 

[anon5216]

Seems you’re making the mistake of emotionalism.

More like looking at religion objectively - without emotional attachment.

 

[The_Catholic]

“This is a human created god, in the image and likeness of fairly barbaric humans.”

What happened to you to tottaly cast the Lord aside? How is it that the God of the Old Testament remains “barbaric?” I find Him to be exactly as I would expect. The very nature of the world is “barbaric,” yet also beautiful. There is a time and place for everything. Of course the preists added certain aspects here and there, influencing they way they worshiped, as is evident by Jewish Tradition. Though . . . so what? That’s human nature, does not take away from the perfection of the Lord.

“Religions constantly confuse human and divine - typically making up human ideas and claiming divine source for them.”

Men confuse themselves. Also, God speaks to us as though He too were human, by far the smartest human to ever live. He has too, how else is He going to communicate with the human race in a way which we understand?

“And why would anyone want to take the god they made up seriously?”

Because He is the Lord God Almighty. Taste and see the GOODNESS of the Lord. Once you have my friend, you can never go back.

“Why study a document that is so obviously contrived and false (as far as God is concerned)?”

Why do you assume it to be false, sounds like you just do not like the character of God. You want to know who God is, look at Christ, He is God in the flesh, complete and total, full of love, righteousness, goodness and judgment. He is the fullfilment of the old covenant, it is complete in Jesus Christ.

“The old testament is comprised of political propaganda used for building a national consciousness. Standard strategy in the ancient world.”

The Old Testament points to the coming of Christ. Yes there are many poilitical parts of the Bible, in the ancient scriptures, the Bible is a library of books about mythology, politics, poetry, literalism, and Truth. Humans have done badly, their writtings are among the scriptures proving that. But don’t toss out the baby with the bath water.

“The biggest mistake the early christians made was to define some of these earlier writings as divinely sourced or inspired and call it scripture.”

In love I say the biggest mistake you are making is casting aside the Lord your God. Please come back, let not the spirit of hate and confusion hold you.

Peace.

 

[anon5216]

“This is a human created god, in the image and likeness of fairly barbaric humans.”

What happened to you to tottaly cast the Lord aside? How is it that the God of the Old Testament remains “barbaric?” I find Him to be exactly as I would expect. The very nature of the world is “barbaric,” yet also beautiful. There is a time and place for everything. Of course the preists added certain aspects here and there, influencing they way they worshiped, as is evident by Jewish Tradition. Though . . . so what? That’s human nature, does not take away from the perfection of the Lord.

I’m only casting aside a false god created by fairly barbaric humans. You really expect a jealous, angry, vengeful god like those of the ancient Greeks?
Those ancient priests did far more than add things here and there - they plagiarized other culture’s religious myths and made things up out of whole cloth.
The perfection of the Lord you speak of is entirely obscured and falsified by these writings.

“Religions constantly confuse human and divine - typically making up human ideas and claiming divine source for them.”

Men confuse themselves. Also, God speaks to us as though He too were human, by far the smartest human to ever live. He has too, how else is He going to communicate with the human race in a way which we understand?

Men confuse their and other’s delusions for communication from God all the time.

“And why would anyone want to take the god they made up seriously?”

Because He is the Lord God Almighty. Taste and see the GOODNESS of the Lord. Once you have my friend, you can never go back.

Read the Old Testament again. Where is the GOODNESS of the Lord? It isn’t there.
What we do get is a being who promises wealth and riches if he is obeyed and followed unquestioningly, while in the same breath threatening violence and destruction if he is not obeyed.
Not only that, but the wealth and riches promised comes from murdering and stealing from others. It is not generated by the followers or the so-called grantor of these riches.
This sounds like a mid-level mafioso thug - not any kind of Divine being whatsoever.

How people can relate Jesus to this being is simply beyond comprehension.

“Why study a document that is so obviously contrived and false (as far as God is concerned)?”

Why do you assume it to be false, sounds like you just do not like the character of God. You want to know who God is, look at Christ, He is God in the flesh, complete and total, full of love, righteousness, goodness and judgment. He is the fullfilment of the old covenant, it is complete in Jesus Christ.

It is the character and veracity of the ancient Jewish political and religious leaders that I have no reason to trust.
Jesus can be much more compared to the descriptions of Divinity coming from India than he can be compared to Old Testament mythology.

“The old testament is comprised of political propaganda used for building a national consciousness. Standard strategy in the ancient world.”

The Old Testament points to the coming of Christ. Yes there are many poilitical parts of the Bible, in the ancient scriptures, the Bible is a library of books about mythology, politics, poetry, literalism, and Truth. Humans have done badly, their writtings are among the scriptures proving that. But don’t toss out the baby with the bath water.

The Jewish religious leaders who claim to have authority to interpret the ancient Jewish religious writings still don’t believe that their scriptures pointed to Christ -
and they claimed “infallibility” in their interpretations long before Jesus was born on this earth.
(Catholic leadership claims of infallibility are by no means an original concept or claim).

The thing is, the Old Testament is bath water.

“The biggest mistake the early christians made was to define some of these earlier writings as divinely sourced or inspired and call it scripture.”

In love I say the biggest mistake you are making is casting aside the Lord your God. Please come back, let not the spirit of hate and confusion hold you.

I’m not casting aside the Lord; I’m not held by the spirit of hate.
Even highly educated and serious contemporary Jews are questioning their own ancient mythology and concluding it’s high time to recognize what it is and isn’t - and drop this neurotic belief in it.

Peace.

Peace.

Ah, now here we agree entirely.