Difficult OT passages

[Dark_Warrior]

Can some please explain these to me, I’m tired of being bombared by atheists and their hatred of Christianity. i get these quotes thrown at me all the time and I really want to have have a calm, good explanation next time.

For starters, Judges 12: 5-6, “they said unto him, ‘then say Sibboleth,’ for he could not pronounce it right. Then they seized him and slaughtered him at the fords of the Jordan. At that time, 42,000 Ephraimites fell.”

Another words they were killed for mispronounciation? No way, it’s got to be something else.

Genesis 19:36, “thus both the daughters became pregant by their father.”

On that one an atheist questions that it was ok for God to destroy Sodom and Gomorah because of homosexuality, but it’s ok for insest?

 

[1ke]

Can some please explain these to me, I’m tired of being bombared by atheists and their hatred of Christianity. i get these quotes thrown at me all the time and I really want to have have a calm, good explanation next time.

First, with whom or where are you hanging out that you get these quotes thrown at you “all the time?”

If you are hanging out at non-Catholic apologetics sites and you don’t know the answer to questions like these and cannot see them for what they are-- mostly logical fallacies and a complete lack of understanding of scripture-- then YOUR solution is to get yourself into serious bible studies of the calibre of Scott Hahn, Navarre Bible, Jeff Cavins, etc and stay away from them until you are better grounded in your own faith and definitely in Scripture. If you know these people in real life, then again, get into a bible study and steep yourself in Catholic doctrine. Until you are better grounded tell them you are not interested in debating religion. If they can’t respect that-- then get new friends.

Scripture does not live in isolation-- here is a section of the Catechism for you to read. Scripture and Tradition are both the Word of God. Scripture is rightly intepreted only from the heart of the Church. Scripture has four senses-- literal, allegorical, moral, and anagogical.

For starters, Judges 12: 5-6, “they said unto him, ‘then say Sibboleth,’ for he could not pronounce it right. Then they seized him and slaughtered him at the fords of the Jordan. At that time, 42,000 Ephraimites fell.”

Another words they were killed for mispronounciation? No way, it’s got to be something else…

Um, did you bother to go read the the entire chapter?

The Gileadites did not kill the Ephraimites “for mispronunciation.” Gilead was at *war *with Ephraim, and killed the fleeing enemy because they were at war. Their pronunciation betrayed their true tribal affiliation when the Ephraimites were attempting to escape via subterfuge.

Genesis 19:36, “thus both the daughters became pregant by their father.”

On that one an atheist questions that it was ok for God to destroy Sodom and Gomorah because of homosexuality, but it’s ok for insest?

Logical fallacy.

God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah for their iniquity.

Lots daughters sinned against their father and God by what they did. This story explains the origin of the Moabites and Ammonites, enemies of Israel.

The question you ask doesn’t make sense because the bible nowhere condones incest.

 

[WMM]

Judges 12: 5-6, “they said unto him, ‘then say Sibboleth,’ for he could not pronounce it right. Then they seized him and slaughtered him at the fords of the Jordan. At that time, 42,000 Ephraimites fell.”

This passage of Judges refers to a test of identity. The Ephraimites were mortal enemies of the House of Israel. They were known to mis-pronounce the word “Shibboleth”.

So this became a test.

If you wanted to know if a stranger was a kinsmen or an enemy, you asked him to pronounce the word “Shibboleth”.

A kinsmen would pronounce it correctly; an Ephraimite would mis-pronounce it.

No one was killed simply for mis-pronouncing the word, but for being an enemy of the House of Israel.

 

[Nita]

This passage of Judges refers to a test of identity. The Ephraimites were mortal enemies of the House of Israel. They were known to mis-pronounce the word “Shibboleth”.
.

The Ephraimites were one of the twelve tribes of Israel. Guess there was some internal friction between the tribes at this time.

 

[Nita]

Genesis 19:36, “thus both the daughters became pregant by their father.”

On that one an atheist questions that it was ok for God to destroy Sodom and Gomorah because of homosexuality, but it’s ok for insest?

It is presumed that in the beginning, incest was allowed – that the sons and daughters of Adam allowed to marry and have children. (Altho, there is no indication that relations between parent and child occurred.). Therefore, altho it would later be forbidden, it is perhaps not intrinsically evil and contrary to the natural law at all times/in all circumstances. (At the time of Lot, the Mosaic Law had not been given.) Once God has decreed it to be against His will and commanded us not to do it, such acts became seriously sinful.

Homosexual acts are considered to be intrinsically evil and contrary to natural law. The human intellect and reasoning is capable of recognizing that; it is part of the natural law written on the hearts of men. Thus, Sodom and Gomorrah were judged and punished even tho, as yet, God had not intervened in human history to overtly state that such acts were gravely sinful.

 

[Dark_Warrior]

First, with whom or where are you hanging out that you get these quotes thrown at you “all the time?”

If you are hanging out at non-Catholic apologetics sites and you don’t know the answer to questions like these and cannot see them for what they are-- mostly logical fallacies and a complete lack of understanding of scripture-- then YOUR solution is to get yourself into serious bible studies of the calibre of Scott Hahn, Navarre Bible, Jeff Cavins, etc and stay away from them until you are better grounded in your own faith and definitely in Scripture. If you know these people in real life, then again, get into a bible study and steep yourself in Catholic doctrine. Until you are better grounded tell them you are not interested in debating religion. If they can’t respect that-- then get new friends.

Scripture does not live in isolation-- here is a section of the Catechism for you to read. Scripture and Tradition are both the Word of God. Scripture is rightly intepreted only from the heart of the Church. Scripture has four senses-- literal, allegorical, moral, and anagogical.

Um, did you bother to go read the the entire chapter?

The Gileadites did not kill the Ephraimites “for mispronunciation.” Gilead was at *war *with Ephraim, and killed the fleeing enemy because they were at war. Their pronunciation betrayed their true tribal affiliation when the Ephraimites were attempting to escape via subterfuge.

Logical fallacy.

God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah for their iniquity.

Lots daughters sinned against their father and God by what they did. This story explains the origin of the Moabites and Ammonites, enemies of Israel.

The question you ask doesn’t make sense because the bible nowhere condones incest.

Thanks a bundle for the help. I’m a strange individual, I also have OCD severely, and other psycological issues. I am well grounded in the Bible on certain issues and doctrines, as well as Church history and the origins of the Bible. But in other areas, i am completely clueless!

But thanks.