Difficult time writing the Virgin Mary

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WARNING: the following post contains very serious content that may upset people.

So the thing is, I’m writing a book and without going much into the plot or anything, it also includes the Blessed Virgin Mary, God and Jesus as characters, the latter two not as main characters but the first one as one. Now it happens that a main character who is also devout or going to be devout gets abducted by a group who use her as frankly, a sex slave; they continiously rape her, mistreat her and at one point almost destroy what is left of her sanity by giving her an extremely cruel ‘speech’.

Now it happens that while I do have a conclusion to this character is borders on the happy or bittersweet scale, I don’t know how to write the Blessed Virgin sympathetically here. I want to show people that both God and Mary care for these people, that they WANT them to escape from their ordeal so I planned on writing the Blessed Virgin as someone who not only gives this character (through inspiration) moral support and hope but even opens up opportunities for her to escape. Nether she nor God abandon people who suffer out of a misguided attempt to look good, nor is it like victims of rape have no possible way of overcoming their ordeal emotionally like so many dumb people pretend.

The problem lies here: Mary has the power to instantly whisk this character away from such terrible ordeals but does not do so because a) a lot of people who do suffer such ordeals even if they do get released from it ultra-rarely get freed through an extraordinary miracle. You’ll tell me that Saint Agnes and many virgin martyrs got spared actual rape but that’s not what I want to show here; I want to show the emotional and even faith related turmoil these people pass through instead of showing the story of a saint aided by supernatural help. And it’s not like every virgin saint dedicated to God was spared actual rape. Just look at Pierina Morisini or worse, Saint Agatha. Hagiography doesn’t really say whether she was spared such actual ordeals, that her faith didn’t and mind didn’t waver.

I already said my intentions for this character and how I view rape victims as people who do have the strength to overcome any problem related to their rape. Sure, they need help to do so, something I am well aware of, sure they are traumatized, it’s obvious etc… people do suffer things worse than rape and then go away from them stronger than before. But I imagine someone like Mary to not want them to suffer something so great in the first place and I want to avoid depicting Mary as a snivelling woman melodramatically crying over not being able to save her children.

ANy help guys please?
 
I’m not crazy about the idea of using the Virgin Mary as a character in a book where you add words she didn’t say and actions she didn’t perform, especially if said words and actions make her appear to be sinful, since she was not. It’s sort of as if you were writing a book about a gang rape and added your earthly mother as a character. She might (rightly) feel as if you were doing her an injustice, because you are presenting her as reacting in a way that may not be at all accurate.

Your question is essentially about the problem of evil. Why does a good God allow bad things happen to innocent people? As a corollary, why does Mary not intervene with her Son on our behalf when she witnesses our suffering?

I think it’s helpful to remember that Mary sees our suffering and suffers with us. Just as she followed Christ as he carried his cross to Golgotha, she watches us and weeps with us when we suffer. She’s not a “snivelling woman melodramatically crying over not being able to save her children.” She’s our sorrowful mother who loves us so dearly that she’s willing to walk with us and suffer with us and hold our dead, blood-stained bodies in her arms. She’s not a magic sorcerer who can wave a magic wand and overrule other’s free will and transport us out of difficult situations. She human.
 
mrajax said:
The problem lies here: Mary has the power to instantly whisk this character away from such terrible ordeals but does not do so because …
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Only God has the power to whisk any character away from ordeals… Mary can only present the “ask” to Jesus… problematic to say the least.
 
nodito said:
I’m not crazy about the idea of using the Virgin Mary as a character in a book where you add words she didn’t say and actions she didn’t perform, especially if said words and actions make her appear to be sinful, since she was not. It’s sort of as if you were writing a book about a gang rape and added your earthly mother as a character. She might (rightly) feel as if you were doing her an injustice, because you are presenting her as reacting in a way that may not be at all accurate.

Your question is essentially about the problem of evil. Why does a good God allow bad things happen to innocent people? As a corollary, why does Mary not intervene with her Son on our behalf when she witnesses our suffering?

I think it’s helpful to remember that Mary sees our suffering and suffers with us. Just as she followed Christ as he carried his cross to Golgotha, she watches us and weeps with us when we suffer. She’s not a “snivelling woman melodramatically crying over not being able to save her children.” She’s our sorrowful mother who loves us so dearly that she’s willing to walk with us and suffer with us and hold our dead, blood-stained bodies in her arms. She’s not a magic sorcerer who can wave a magic wand and overrule other’s free will and transport us out of difficult situations. She human.
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Wait, I’m saying this before I read the third paragraph: I know the problem of evil, I’ve heard it all to death, it’s explored in my book and here is my judgement on it: humans are weak but no matter how much they suffer or get tortured, they feel the pain and will always fight back. God allows evil to happen, He allows us to suffer and to make us work hard for what we want because if He went and gave us everything in an instant, we’d have no merit. A mother who suffers because her son is leading a sinful life will gain a ton of merit in heaven and in this life, will mature a lot. Likewise, Mary does intervene and help us in our sufferigns BY GIVING US MORAL SUPPORT AND HOPE. She knows miracles aren’t necessary when she can teach us to accept our suffering like you know SHE DID when she accepted Jesus as her son and all His suffering as well as us.

And I think you misunderstood my question: no way in all hell did I ever think of showing the Blessed Virgin as a sinful woman. In fact, I asked this question PRECISELY to avoid this degrading concept. And while it is true I don’t really know what she is really thinking, I don’t think I’m doing her an injustice by the way I want to portray her. I want to portray Mary as someone who cares for the people of the world, someone who loves God and wants everyone to recognize Him for what a kind ‘person’ God really is. I want to show her back story, what she went through in the Passion and what she goes through now. I want to show her as both morally and emotionally strong. She does suffer with us but with that suffering, Mary has resolve. That’s why I said I want to avoid the snivveling woman stereotype, in case someone who isn’t an experienced story teller were to come up with such a concept.
 
godisgood77 said:
Only God has the power to whisk any character away from ordeals… Mary can only present the “ask” to Jesus… problematic to say the least.
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Yes, it is true that only God has the power in the end to whisk anyone away from any ordeal or to do any miracle etc… but He used people, women included to perform miracles like Saint Paul, the Apostles etc… heck, Priests themselves can turn bread into the body and blood of Jesus without explicitly praying because God gave them that power. Since Mary is the Mediatrix of all grace, meaning grace flows through her, she gives graces to anyone when, how and where she wants. Even if you don’t believe this concept, for the sake of story telling and for the sake of not inciting a theological debate here, I’m going to pretend that Mary can give the graces of God to whoever she wants.
 
mrajax said:
Yes, it is true that only God has the power in the end to whisk anyone away from any ordeal or to do any miracle etc… but He used people, women included to perform miracles like Saint Paul, the Apostles etc… heck, Priests themselves can turn bread into the body and blood of Jesus without explicitly praying because God gave them that power. Since Mary is the Mediatrix of all grace, meaning grace flows through her, she gives graces to anyone when, how and where she wants. Even if you don’t believe this concept, for the sake of story telling and for the sake of not inciting a theological debate here, I’m going to pretend that Mary can give the graces of God to whoever she wants.
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Fair enough… I’l back out of the thread.

…One point however…That title or more importantly that power has never been granted to Mary at least as far that the Church is concerned.
 
mrajax said:
WARNING: the following post contains very serious content that may upset people.

So the thing is, I’m writing a book and without going much into the plot or anything, it also includes the Blessed Virgin Mary, God and Jesus as characters, the latter two not as main characters but the first one as one. Now it happens that a main character who is also devout or going to be devout gets abducted by a group who use her as frankly, a sex slave; they continiously rape her, mistreat her and at one point almost destroy what is left of her sanity by giving her an extremely cruel ‘speech’.
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so you want to rationalize filth,🤷 have at it dude.please don’t dress it up in intellectual double talk .
 
godisgood77 said:
Fair enough… I’l back out of the thread.

…One point however…That title or more importantly that power has never been granted to Mary at least as far that the Church is concerned.
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Hey, did I come off as a bit mean spirited here?

Guys, I’m sorry but I don’t want this thread to be a discussion about Marian dogmas or anything explicitly theological no matter how much I love the Blessed Virgin in real life. I’m trying to write a book.
april32010 said:
so you want to rationalize filth,🤷 have at it dude.please don’t dress it up in intellectual double talk .
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Well I never. Intellectual double talk? Frankly, you cannot say that when you haven’t even the faintest idea what my book is about. Filth? What filth? Why is writing about the ordeal, the loss of confidence and even faith that such people go through filth? Am I writing pornography? No I’m not, I’m writing a story about people, people and their relationship with God and each other so without meaning to sound like a bully, please don’t judge my intentions until you know them better.
 
Hullo. While this won’t answer your question, I really, really would like to recommend this book Redeeming Love by Francine Rivers, if you haven’t already read it. I think you ought to read it because it seems quite similar to your book idea, although yours is from a Catholic perspective while RL isn’t. Still, because the themes are similar, it may give you some good ideas.

If you do read it, lemme know what you thought of it! =D

Cheers,
Grey
 
mrajax said:
WARNING: the following post contains very serious content that may upset people.

So the thing is, I’m writing a book and without going much into the plot or anything, it also includes the Blessed Virgin Mary, God and Jesus as characters, the latter two not as main characters but the first one as one. Now it happens that a main character who is also devout or going to be devout gets abducted by a group who use her as frankly, a sex slave; they continiously rape her, mistreat her and at one point almost destroy what is left of her sanity by giving her an extremely cruel ‘speech’.

Now it happens that while I do have a conclusion to this character is borders on the happy or bittersweet scale, I don’t know how to write the Blessed Virgin sympathetically here. I want to show people that both God and Mary care for these people, that they WANT them to escape from their ordeal so I planned on writing the Blessed Virgin as someone who not only gives this character (through inspiration) moral support and hope but even opens up opportunities for her to escape. Nether she nor God abandon people who suffer out of a misguided attempt to look good, nor is it like victims of rape have no possible way of overcoming their ordeal emotionally like so many dumb people pretend.

The problem lies here: Mary has the power to instantly whisk this character away from such terrible ordeals but does not do so because a) a lot of people who do suffer such ordeals even if they do get released from it ultra-rarely get freed through an extraordinary miracle. You’ll tell me that Saint Agnes and many virgin martyrs got spared actual rape but that’s not what I want to show here; I want to show the emotional and even faith related turmoil these people pass through instead of showing the story of a saint aided by supernatural help. And it’s not like every virgin saint dedicated to God was spared actual rape. Just look at Pierina Morisini or worse, Saint Agatha. Hagiography doesn’t really say whether she was spared such actual ordeals, that her faith didn’t and mind didn’t waver.

I already said my intentions for this character and how I view rape victims as people who do have the strength to overcome any problem related to their rape. Sure, they need help to do so, something I am well aware of, sure they are traumatized, it’s obvious etc… people do suffer things worse than rape and then go away from them stronger than before. But I imagine someone like Mary to not want them to suffer something so great in the first place and I want to avoid depicting Mary as a snivelling woman melodramatically crying over not being able to save her children.

ANy help guys please?
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Without prejudging your book or story, I think you’re taking on a difficult task. CS Lewis wrote The Screwtape Letters which was the advice of a senior devil to a junior devil about how to successfully tempt one young man, and thus gain his eternal soul. He also admitted that it was the easiest book he’d ever written.

He pointed out that to be fair a similar book should be written where an Archangel gave a junior angel the opposite advice, but commented “Who could write it?” Every line, every breath, every phrase, would have to reek of heaven. And that’s what you’re trying to do, except that you’re trying to use Mary instead of an Archangel.

The major problem as I see it is to show how heaven reacts to the degradation being suffered by the victim, while remaining heavenly, without delivering the victim from this foul treatment. Even when she’s being beaten or raped, heaven doesn’t deliver her as we well know happens in the sex slave trade every day around the world.

And that’s where you’re going to have a problem. No amount of heavenly sounding talk is going to look convincing, unless you can clearly illustrate why heaven doesn’t seem to interfere even in this sort of situation.

I think you might have more success if you tried the CS Lewis method of using tongue in cheek humour, and set your sights on something a bit less ambitious - say just a young bloke or girl going through a more ordinary crisis. Start there, and if you can do that much, then you might have a chance of illustrating heaven’s response to a more graphic situation.

Frankly I think you’re trying to do the impossible at this point.
 
I’ve been thinking of this, and I still really think you should read that book I recommended. But I was also wondering, instead of having Mary directly contacting, which brings up the problem of putting words in her mouth, etc. etc., but using indirect contact? I find that most of the time, help comes from God and other Heavenly Beings sure, but after Jesus came, heavenly help has come through other people, who are His instruments. And sometimes, we don’t even realize it! Perhaps that would be a more plausible approach?

Just a thought. =)
 
Bob and GreyRabbit, thanks for your responses. I myself think that I am undertaking an ultra hard task with writing the Blessed Virgin as a main character but I feel I want to because she is fascinating and I think readers will pity her and love her if they delved into her really tragic backstory. Didn’t know about the CS Lewis archangel book thing, thanks.

I’ve thought a TON about this subject and in response to writing Mary taking care of someone with a more ‘normal’ but still hard task, here’s what I think: Mary (nor God obviously) doesn’t grant miracles cheaply and on the go because if they did people would come to expect God and Mary to grant miracles for even menial situations. It doesn’t mean they don’t give help to Their children or open opportunities for them but if they made it so that every disease is cured by prayer, every war is prevented by prayer, every temptation is avoided by prayer etc… we wouldn’t do good out of our own will. We wouldn’t accept disease and physical ailments as a sacrifice, we wouldn’t try preventing war through diplomacy or helping each other out in times of crisis, we wouldn’t try resisting temptation out of love for Them etc… and consequently, our knowledge and perception of right and wrong would be perverted; we’d stop caring for other humans because it wouldn’t be our problem but God’s; humanity would not progress either scientifically or morally. That’s what you call being stagnant.

And this is something I want to make clear to the reader, that the reason God and Mary allow them to suffer SOME suffering is for their own good and that nobody is spared from this suffering. Just as the poor have to suffer through hardship to earn their living, the kings have to suffer through constant war and managing their kingdom (well, some of them anyway, because one of the main villains in my book is a king but also an anti-hero…) but at the same time I want to point out that not all suffering is spelled out by God for one’s own good.

Of course I can’t judge God nor His judgements so as you said, I don’t explicitly know. I shall read that book grey thanks you guys:).
 
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Pray The Holy Rosary to Jesus and Our Lady Mary asking Mother Mary directly during prayer what Our Divine Holy Mother advises in relation to the book you are writing (wait for Mother Mary’s signs and words in a quiet place) and Thanking Her respectfully through Jesus; regardless of His answer to you.

My Books unpublished were put to the side never published two years ago.

Love and best wishes.
 
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Mrajax, Our Lady Mary was given the most special Grace by Jesus, in these modern day times (at Medjugorje) to appear before the Visionaries now in their 40’s/50’s. It is up to people (Pope John Paul II) decided in his faith to visit Medjugorje where Our Lady to date appears, to see for himself; returning many times during his life.

Now, Our Lady Mary Mother of Jesus (in my Faith in Jesus and God) has repeated many of the things during The Holy Rosaries I pray daily, (that I had not read in Her Medjugorje messages to the Visionaries and His and Her Children throughout the World before praying). For instance, when I pray for His causes and when I used to go and purchase a newspaper; a strong sign arrived “No”. Ditto, the television years ago, Ditto, the publications of certain books all ready to be published. This before I had come across Medjugorje over the past couple of years reading some of the things Our Lady Mary in His Grace to us, had agreed upon.

If you do not receive Jesus’ answer to your dilemma through The Holy Rosary daily, it is a suggestion to read the Medjugorje site and see what Our Lady Mary Mother of Jesus has stated in relation to material published and the readings of those publications and television (which includes material made and put on dvd’s and programs) and all of Mother Mary’s messages through Jesus appointed Visionaries makes sense to Jesus teachings through His Bible that was left through His Disciples.

God Bless and best wishes.
 
He pointed out that to be fair a similar book should be written where an Archangel gave a junior angel the opposite advice, but commented “Who could write it?”

That is so true it is hilarious. It made me laugh out loud.

I wrote a book and it has Jesus and Mary in it but they aren’t in it very much. I just stuck more to things they said in the bible but just sort of paraphrased it…or things they’ve said in apparitions or things saints say…that kind of thing.

The way I look at it…if you wanted her to say why she didn’t just whisk her away from the situation…the only thing you can say is that she needs to give her suffering to God so that He can use it to save souls. “If the angels were capable of envy, they would envy us for two things: one is the receiving of Holy Communion, and the other is suffering.”
 
Oren said:
He pointed out that to be fair a similar book should be written where an Archangel gave a junior angel the opposite advice, but commented “Who could write it?”

That is so true it is hilarious. It made me laugh out loud.

I wrote a book and it has Jesus and Mary in it but they aren’t in it very much. I just stuck more to things they said in the bible but just sort of paraphrased it…or things they’ve said in apparitions or things saints say…that kind of thing.

The way I look at it…if you wanted her to say why she didn’t just whisk her away from the situation…the only thing you can say is that she needs to give her suffering to God so that He can use it to save souls. “If the angels were capable of envy, they would envy us for two things: one is the receiving of Holy Communion, and the other is suffering.”
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Correction. While it is true that the Angels envy our suffering, it depends on what suffering we go through. We may offer all our suffering to God for the conversion of sinners etc… but being stuck as a sex slave is NOT something that God wants or desires no matter how much SPIRITUAL good it may bring. Disease and death teach us to be patient and to accept our lot in life; sexual slavery destroys your sanity.

Also, note that if a militant atheist is trying to tell me that Mary or God don’t exist or that they are evil… shove it, I don’t want to hear from people who don’t give the least amount of care or compassion towards people who genuinely suffer.

On the subject, I think I figured it out what my problem is: irregardless of all the moral support and inspiration our Lady may give to this character, no matter how clear or mysterious or convincing I make her and God’s motives as to why they don’t just whisk her away, in the end I don’t think I will be able to convince the readers or even myself that Mary is right in not performing miracles especially when said character is praying for them. If God rescued Saint Agnes and Saint Lucy from rape through a miracle but not others like Saint Agatha.

At the same time, I am ticked off to hell about the attitude people have towards subjects like war and rape. They will joke about it, laugh at people who actually suffered it and worse, I;ve seen people adore fictional characters for being smart and ‘charming’ despite themselves being rapists like Petyr Baelish in a Song of Ice and Fire. It is so hypocrital that it makes me want to tell them that I couldn’t care less for their opinion, the opinion of people who look up to evil something cool. Screw them, if my villain doesn’t make anyone nauseated, I’ll totally lose faith in humanity.
 
“Correction. While it is true that the Angels envy our suffering, it depends on what suffering we go through. We may offer all our suffering to God for the conversion of sinners etc… but being stuck as a sex slave is NOT something that God wants or desires no matter how much SPIRITUAL good it may bring. Disease and death teach us to be patient and to accept our lot in life; sexual slavery destroys your sanity.”

I don’t think this is true at all. It doesn’t ‘depend what kind of suffering it is’ suffering is suffering. Whatever happens in the world, God either wills it or permits it. In the case of evil, He permits it to happen for a reason. I never said God wants or desires anything. Theology tells us though that God allows evil to happen to bring a greater good out of it. I said what I thought that good could be, but if you don’t agree with me that’s fine. But don’t misconstrue what I said and put words in my mouth.
 
I would stop now and write a different book.

To get published you would have to be graphic in your descriptions, do you really want that on your mind?

Why not write a book about Mary herself, the woman, one that people can identify with, an be inspired by.

God bless you+
 
FrancisBenedict said:
I would stop now and write a different book.

To get published you would have to be graphic in your descriptions, do you really want that on your mind?

Why not write a book about Mary herself, the woman, one that people can identify with, an be inspired by.

God bless you+
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Yes, I want to be graphic in my mind because I want people to think. I am writing a book about Mary the woman, but my book is more than that and shying away from what the Saints themselves suffered isn’t going to inspire anyone.
 
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