Difficulties accepting interpretations of adam and eve

[guanophore]

1. You’re right. We are NOT personally guilty of Adam’s sin. We are only personally guilty and responsible for the sins WE commit. However, Adam’s personal sin WAS passed down to us. It’s called Original Sin. Although O.S. becomes eraditcated at baptism, the effect of it remains and is called concupiscence (please don’t make me type that word too many times!) or the Sin Nature. The bible sometimes refers to it as the sinful flesh. I’m sure you’ve come across it. This is what it means. It’s the EFFECT that Adam’s personal sin has had on all of humanity. But what was Adam’s sin called? Original Sin. And this has passed down to each and everyone of us. You could think of Adam as being ALL MEN. He is our representative.

I think you and David are both missing the mark. In fact, David contradicted the section he posted:

Originally Posted by CCC

405 Although it is proper to each individual,** original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam’s descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, **but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called “concupiscence”. Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ’s grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle.

When the Church uses the term “original sin” she is NOT referring to the personal sin of Adam, but to the deprivation of original holiness and justice that resulted from it.

1. Why are we baptized?
   You’re right - it’s to restore sanctifying grace. BUT, babies haven’t committed any sin yet - so how did they lose sanctifying grace? They lost it because Adam’s sin has been passed down to each of us.

Adam’s sin is not passed down to us. Original sin does not have the character of personal fault. It is the deprivation of being in right relationship with God that is passed down to us.

1. Romans 5:12 and on…
   DEATH THROUGH ADAM - LIFE THROUGH CHRIST

Sin entered the world thru one man - Adam. Death thus entered into the world, both physical and spriritual death because Adam is the first man and represents us all. Because of Adam’s first sin, we are all born with sin. (original sin).

Before the Law was given, men were not personally responsible for their sins but for Adam’s sin.

This is not an accurate statement either. Mankind has always been personally responsible for sin, from the creation of Adam to the present. Human beings were created with natural law in our hearts.

This is clear in Gen. 4:7 when God speaks to Cain "7*If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door. Its desire is for you, but you must rule over it.”

 

[frangiuliano115]

I do know about original sin. But I also think those paragraphs are an excellent explanation for someone who does not know what original sin is.

When I first got the Catechism of the Catholic Church, I was very disappointed. I had been anticipating something more along the line of an encyclopedia I guess. Just look up a topic and all the info that had bearing on that topic would be contained very concisely in that entry. As you know, that is not the style of the Catechism. I was about to relegate it to some out of the way spot on the bookshelf and just forget about using it.
I can only think it was the Holy Spirit that took me in hand . I had the thought that maybe, before doing that, I ought to just sit down, start at the very beginning, and just read it. I thank the Lord that I followed that inspiration. The Catechism is beautiful. It’s It “builds”, so to speak - like a novel does. One paragraph/section prepares and forms a background for the next one.

Well yes those two paragraphs explain it well, but all in the CCC is not like that - I’m sure you have to agree that you’ve been perplexed at some of the pp’s.

I was being a bit facetious because I have to use the CCC in preparing lessons and, trust me, it’s not easy. I would LOVE IT if it would have been in an encyclopedic form as you also would have liked better. And, really, it should have been like that. Maybe there could have been two? I mean, there’s a pp which states that thru only God’s understanding even men doing good could come to salvation. Now how would you look that up to find the statement? I had to try last evening. I know it’s there and I couldn’t find it! What I’ve actually had to do is kind of make up my own index.

If you’re reading it for edification or to learn it’s one thing - and I even think that then it should be much clearer. If you use it for lessons you learn quickly the inadequacy of it.

But, they did their best! There was nothing before that resembled this.

God bless you and remember to read the bible too!

Fran

 

[frangiuliano115]

I am relieved.

The Catechism states it better. 404 How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? The whole human race is in Adam “as one body of one man”.By this “unity of the human race” all men are implicated in Adam’s sin, as all are implicated in Christ’s justice. Still, the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand. But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state. It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. And that is why original sin is called “sin” only in an analogical sense: it is a sin “contracted” and not “committed” - a state and not an act.

To restore us to the state of grace that Adam lost through personal sin.

Yes, we are in agreement that the consequence of Adam’s sin is concupiscence.

We are in agreement that Adam’s sin was not concupiscence.

The term “original sin” is discussed in section [407 of the CCC

The doctrine of original sin, closely connected with that of redemption by Christ, provides](Catechism of the Catholic Church - PART 1 SECTION 2 CHAPTER 1 ARTICLE 1 PARAGRAPH 7) lucid discernment of man’s situation and activity in the world. By our first parents’ sin, the devil has acquired a certain domination over man, even though man remains free. Original sin entails “captivity under the power of him who thenceforth had the power of death, that is, the devil”.298 Ignorance of the fact that man has a wounded nature inclined to evil gives rise to serious errors in the areas of education, politics, social action and morals.

You certainly have a right to your thoughts, and your opinions. You have come to the right place to discuss them.

We’re on another thread together so you know how I feel and am not going to repeat myself.

Let me just say that we are NOT entitled to our own opinions. We are entitled to know what the church teaches. If we have a private opinion, we should keep it to ourselves.

I’m not spending a lot of time with that quote thing. I apologize for that. It seems to me you don’t know the Sacrament of Baptism 100%. Please go back and take another look.

Then you go ahead and quote original sin - then you seem not to understand that it was passed on.

Once again guanophore, you confuse me. And that’s not easy to do!

Fran

 

[frangiuliano115]

I think you and David are both missing the mark. In fact, David contradicted the section he posted:

Originally Posted by CCC

405 Although it is proper to each individual,** original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam’s descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, **but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called “concupiscence”. Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ’s grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle.

When the Church uses the term “original sin” she is NOT referring to the personal sin of Adam, but to the deprivation of original holiness and justice that resulted from it.

Adam’s sin is not passed down to us. Original sin does not have the character of personal fault. It is the deprivation of being in right relationship with God that is passed down to us.

This is not an accurate statement either. Mankind has always been personally responsible for sin, from the creation of Adam to the present. Human beings were created with natural law in our hearts.

This is clear in Gen. 4:7 when God speaks to Cain "7*If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door. Its desire is for you, but you must rule over it.”

Okay. This post is interesting and you’re stating facts.

I wouldn’t mind continuing here, but I have to go to a hospital in Florence today. In case I lose this, which I might, please repost tomorrow, Friday, and we could continue.

You see guanophore, sometimes it’s just because it’s not easy to speak of spiritual things, but I’m willing to make myself be understood when YOU’RE NOT CONTRADICTING YOURSELF!!

Will also be checking in for your reply on the other thread but in the morning.

Fran

P.S. Do you mean King David? Just kidding (although I really don’t know who you mean).

 

[ericc]

So you’re saying Original Sin is Adam’s personal sin. So it wasn’t passed down to us?
So why do we get baptized again??

Does Romans 5:12 mean nothing?

OS is Adam’s personal sin. His sin is not imputed to us. However, his sin caused a loss of sanctifying grace in him. And therefore being descendants of Adam, all mankind inherit a nature that is absent of this supernatural grace that Adam originally had. Because Adam broke the unity he once had with God, his children were born under that condition. (A man might be virtuous, but he would be a virtuous member of a fallen race. We inherited a fallen spiritual and biological DNA. The guilt is not ours.) The supernatural light of God’s grace, is absent in them, leaving behind a dark spot. The Latin word for the “dark spot” is macula. A soul without a dark spot , like in Mary, is called immaculate.

Baptism fills that dark spot with sanctifying grace. Gentiles were not the chosen race. We are adopted, grafted on. Rom 5:12. Gentiles were not given the Mosaic Law. Hence “sin is not counted where there is no law”. Baptism give us membership into God’s family. What Adam cause mankind to lose, Christ restored it.

Even though after being restored with supernatural sanctifying grace, we still suffer from the effects of OS, concupiscence, a tendency to sin. Baptism repair the breach between us and God, but the knowledge of sin remains and its illicit pleasure. Baptism does not cause us to forget what is sin. The knowledge and experience of sin remains so to speak.

 

[Nita]

I mean, there’s a pp which states that thru only God’s understanding even men doing good could come to salvation. Now how would you look that up to find the statement? I had to try last evening. I know it’s there and I couldn’t find it! What I’ve actually had to do is kind of make up my own index…
Fran

I don’t want to derail this thread, so I’m going to open one in this forum titled “How to find things in the CCC”. Don’t have time right now, but will do it later on this morning.

BTW, this might be what you were looking for - took maybe 5-10 minutes to find it:
847This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.
848 “Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men.”​

 

[davidv]

I think you and David are both missing the mark. In fact, David contradicted the section he posted:

Originally Posted by CCC

405 Although it is proper to each individual,** original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam’s descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, **but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called “concupiscence”. Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ’s grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle.

When the Church uses the term “original sin” she is NOT referring to the personal sin of Adam, but to the deprivation of original holiness and justice that resulted from it.

Adam’s sin is not passed down to us. Original sin does not have the character of personal fault. It is the deprivation of being in right relationship with God that is passed down to us.

This is not an accurate statement either. Mankind has always been personally responsible for sin, from the creation of Adam to the present. Human beings were created with natural law in our hearts.

This is clear in Gen. 4:7 when God speaks to Cain "7*If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door. Its desire is for you, but you must rule over it.”

I may be missing the mark, but a contributing factor is the ambiguity of “original” sin. As has been demonstrated, it can refer either to Adam’s personal sin or its effect on us. Even Church documents use different meanings depending on the context.

That being said, the lesson here is to very clear what meaning was intended by others and making it clear which meaning I am using when posting.

 

[guanophore]

OS is Adam’s personal sin.

I don’t think this is right. In reading the Catechism, it seems to me that the term “original sin” is used by the Church to refer to the effects of his choice on the rest of humanity.

405 Although it is proper to each individual, original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam’s descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called “concupiscence”. Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ’s grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle.

When the Church uses the term “original sin” she is NOT referring to the pers His sin is not imputed to us. However, his sin caused a loss of sanctifying grace in him. And therefore being descendants of Adam, all mankind inherit a nature that is absent of this supernatural grace that Adam originally had. Because Adam broke the unity he once had with God, his children were born under that condition. (A man might be virtuous, but he would be a virtuous member of a fallen race. We inherited a fallen spiritual and biological DNA. The guilt is not ours.) The supernatural light of God’s grace, is absent in them, leaving behind a dark spot. The Latin word for the “dark spot” is macula. A soul without a dark spot , like in Mary, is called immaculate.

I think this is well said, except that God’s grace is never “absent” from us. His prevenient grace constantly draws us to return to the state of purity for which we were created.

Baptism fills that dark spot with sanctifying grace. Gentiles were not the chosen race. We are adopted, grafted on. Rom 5:12. Gentiles were not given the Mosaic Law. Hence “sin is not counted where there is no law”. Baptism give us membership into God’s family. What Adam cause mankind to lose, Christ restored it.

Even though after being restored with supernatural sanctifying grace, we still suffer from the effects of OS, concupiscence, a tendency to sin. Baptism repair the breach between us and God, but the knowledge of sin remains and its illicit pleasure. Baptism does not cause us to forget what is sin. The knowledge and experience of sin remains so to speak.

True, to our great suffering!

 

[guanophore]

 I mean, there's a pp which states that thru only God's understanding even men doing good could come to salvation.  Now how would you look that up to find the statement? I had to try last evening. I know it's there and I couldn't find it!  What I've actually had to do is kind of make up my own index.

If you’re reading it for edification or to learn it’s one thing - and I even think that then it should be much clearer. If you use it for lessons you learn quickly the inadequacy of it.

But, they did their best! There was nothing before that resembled this.

God bless you and remember to read the bible too!

Fran

You are right that it is sometimes difficult to find specifics, and I am like you, I would rather have had an encyclopedic format. I also agree with you that there was nothing before that resembled this, and it is the best we have ever had.

I find it helpful to use a searchable version:

scborromeo.org/ccc/index/a.htm

If I can remember at least a word or a phrase, I can find it that way. Over time, I learn the numbers of the sections I reference the most.

But CAUTION! This would mean using a website to learn concepts of your faith.

 

[guanophore]

Let me just say that we are NOT entitled to our own opinions. We are entitled to know what the church teaches. If we have a private opinion, we should keep it to ourselves.

Hey, you are the one who said she was thinking about becoming a Protestant, not me!

  It seems to me you don't know the Sacrament of Baptism 100%.  Please go back and take another look.

Perhaps you could point out where you think my concepts are falling short? Did I leave you with the impression that baptism does NOT wash away all sins, both original and personal? Did I leave you with the impression that I think the grace of baptism takes away concpuiscence?

Then you go ahead and quote original sin - then you seem not to understand that it was passed on.

I think your assertions of what was passed are not consistent with what is written in the catechism.

Once again guanophore, you confuse me. And that’s not easy to do!

Fran

:tiphat:

 

[frangiuliano115]

FOR QUANOPHORE AND ERICC

I’m kind of feeling a bit assaulted here, but only because I don’t have a lot of time and there’s just too much going on and it’s directed at me.

Let’s see if I could make my position clear. Then, if you don’t agree, please just state why and I’ll reply, but one thing at a time!!!

ORIGINAL SIN:

Original sin is the name of the sin commited by Adam. It is NOT a personal sin of ours. We are NOT RESPONSIBLE for it. However, Since Adam was the first man and representative of man, it WAS passed down to each and every one of us.

PLEASE study baptism again. It’s for all the reasons, I think it was Ericc, said. But it’s also to REMOVE ORIGINAL SIN.

The EFFECT of original sin is called concupiscence. That is what could be referred to as the sin nature, the sinful flesh, etc etc. It’s the inclination toward evil.

Someone here doesn’t understand the concept of Adam being the first man and Jesus being the first man. I already tried to explain that on this thread and cannot do better here. It can be FOUND ON THE INTERNET, I’ll bet, as Guanophore likes to do.

I’m sorry, I just can’t go back and read all those quote things. I know this is how we do things here, but it takes a lot of time I don’t have but am still interested in discussing.

I can only repeat that the CCC leaves much to be desired. Try other books, even catechism books, try asking the priest at confession time. It’s incredible to me that we, all of us here on this thread, are confused about OS and baptism.

I mean, WHAT WAS ADAM’S SIN CALLED??? There’s some little nuance here we can’t seem to get out of the way. I’m willing.

Fran
P.S. Guanophore, I get the feeling you want to pick a fight instead of dialogue. Your tone is rather accusatory - like the thing about me becoming a protestant, loosin’ up man, can’t you tell I was kidding? Don’t you remember I taught catechism and have a bible study? BTW, protestants believe the same as we do in regards to Adam and Eve.

 

[guanophore]

FOR QUANOPHORE AND ERICC

I’m kind of feeling a bit assaulted here, but only because I don’t have a lot of time and there’s just too much going on and it’s directed at me.

That can happen here, especially when someone appears making bold assertions that are not consistent with the Teachings of the Church. I have to admit it is especially provoking when such a person claims to be a catechist.

Let’s see if I could make my position clear. Then, if you don’t agree, please just state why and I’ll reply, but one thing at a time!!!

ORIGINAL SIN:

Original sin is the name of the sin commited by Adam. It is NOT a personal sin of ours. We are NOT RESPONSIBLE for it. However, Since Adam was the first man and representative of man, it WAS passed down to each and every one of us.

PLEASE study baptism again. It’s for all the reasons, I think it was Ericc, said. But it’s also to REMOVE ORIGINAL SIN.

The EFFECT of original sin is called concupiscence. That is what could be referred to as the sin nature, the sinful flesh, etc etc. It’s the inclination toward evil.

Someone here doesn’t understand the concept of Adam being the first man and Jesus being the first man. I already tried to explain that on this thread and cannot do better here. It can be FOUND ON THE INTERNET, I’ll bet, as Guanophore likes to do.

It is clear that you have a prejudice against using the internet as a source of catechetical instruction. You are right, it can be, especially in the Catechism, a searchable volume of which can be accessed on the internet.

I’m sorry, I just can’t go back and read all those quote things. I know this is how we do things here, but it takes a lot of time I don’t have but am still interested in discussing.

It can be very time consuming. Some helps are 1) At the top of the thread above the first post you will find a link to “view first unread”. This is a useful tool to pick up where you left off in the thread. 2) You can use the little blue marker next to the poster’s name to jump back to the post where they were. This helps one follow the conversation, especially when there are many participants. 3) It helps to use the Quote button (as I see you do) so the post to which you are responding will be captured.

I can only repeat that the CCC leaves much to be desired. Try other books, even catechism books, try asking the priest at confession time. It’s incredible to me that we, all of us here on this thread, are confused about OS and baptism.

There is so much to learn. :yup:

I mean, WHAT WAS ADAM’S SIN CALLED??? There’s some little nuance here we can’t seem to get out of the way. I’m willing.

I really like the way it is referred to in the Easter Vigil Mass “Oh necessary sin of Adam!”. Scripture also calls it the “Sin of Adam”. It is referred to as The Fall. I like to thik of it as Hubris.

I can see your point that his rebellion against God is referred to as the first sin, or original sin. But in this context, we are using “original sin” to refer to how his choices affect us today.

P.S. Guanophore, I get the feeling you want to pick a fight instead of dialogue. Your tone is rather accusatory - like the thing about me becoming a protestant, loosin’ up man, can’t you tell I was kidding? Don’t you remember I taught catechism and have a bible study? BTW, protestants believe the same as we do in regards to Adam and Eve.

It is alarming when Catholic Catechists make statements like that. No, I could not tell you were kidding.

It is also alarming that you have trouble finding things in the catechism, then make assertions that appear to contradict the contents.

Perhaps you will have an improved awareness of how your own assertions are coming across as accusations?

 

[ericc]

FOR QUANOPHORE AND ERICC

I’m kind of feeling a bit assaulted here, but only because I don’t have a lot of time and there’s just too much going on and it’s directed at me.

Let’s see if I could make my position clear. Then, if you don’t agree, please just state why and I’ll reply, but one thing at a time!!!

The feeling of being assaulted is an illusion! It happens when one doesn’t have enough time to rebut and posts are coming all at once and rather inconvenient to respond to all. Happens all the time!

ORIGINAL SIN:

Original sin is the name of the sin commited by Adam. It is NOT a personal sin of ours. We are NOT RESPONSIBLE for it. However, Since Adam was the first man and representative of man, it WAS passed down to each and every one of us.

The CONDITION of OS was passed down. Not the sin itself. That’s why it is always termed as inheriting the effects of OS. Catechism language describes it as a sin contracted and not committed, a state and not an act.

PLEASE study baptism again. It’s for all the reasons, I think it was Ericc, said. But it’s also to REMOVE ORIGINAL SIN.

I won’t call it removal. Not the appropriate word I think. More of like reinstating/repair the supernatural grace what was originally given to Adam which he lost and which he wasn’t able to passed it down.

The EFFECT of original sin is called concupiscence. That is what could be referred to as the sin nature, the sinful flesh, etc etc. It’s the inclination toward evil.

Agreed. And it still remains even after baptism.

 

[guanophore]

"Fran:

ORIGINAL SIN:

Original sin is the name of the sin commited by Adam. It is NOT a personal sin of ours. We are NOT RESPONSIBLE for it. However, Since Adam was the first man and representative of man, it WAS passed down to each and every one of us.

The CONDITION of OS was passed down. Not the sin itself. That’s why it is always termed as inheriting the effects of OS. Catechism language describes it as a sin contracted and not committed, a state and not an act.
I won’t call it removal. Not the appropriate word I think. More of like reinstating/repair the supernatural grace what was originally given to Adam which he lost and which he wasn’t able to passed it down.
Agreed. And it still remains even after baptism.

Thank you Eric. I think we may just be having a semantics problem regarding the “it” Fran is saying was “passed down”. She seems to refer to it as the personal sin of Adam, which she calls “original sin”, where the Catechism is more consistent with what you have said here.

After reading all the posts, I think that Fran actually agrees with your position here, it just didn’t come across that way in her posts.

 

[frangiuliano115]

You are right that it is sometimes difficult to find specifics, and I am like you, I would rather have had an encyclopedic format. I also agree with you that there was nothing before that resembled this, and it is the best we have ever had.

I find it helpful to use a searchable version:

scborromeo.org/ccc/index/a.htm

If I can remember at least a word or a phrase, I can find it that way. Over time, I learn the numbers of the sections I reference the most.

But CAUTION! This would mean using a website to learn concepts of your faith.

Thanks Guanophore.l I checked out the site and it’s really good. I almost know the CCC by heart but there’s a lot there and I forget many things when I’m preparing a lesson. A lot is trusted to memory, but you always need some help.

Fran

 

[frangiuliano115]

The feeling of being assaulted is an illusion! It happens when one doesn’t have enough time to rebut and posts are coming all at once and rather inconvenient to respond to all. Happens all the time!

**The CONDITION of OS was passed down. Not the sin itself. **That’s why it is always termed as inheriting the effects of OS. Catechism language describes it as a sin contracted and not committed, a state and not an act.

I won’t call it removal. Not the appropriate word I think. More of like reinstating/repair the supernatural grace what was originally given to Adam which he lost and which he wasn’t able to passed it down.

Agreed. And it still remains even after baptism.

I’m glad you understand! I do wish I had more time. In fact, Guanophore is going to have to wait till tomorrow because it’s going to take longer.

We must be having a problem with WORDS here. You say the condition of orignal sin was passed down and not the sin itself. Listen,

1. If babies get baptized to remove sin - what sin is being removed? They’re sometimes only 1 or 2 months old.
2. The sin called ORIG SIN was commited by Adam, not by us personally. I’ve said that it’s not a personal sin. However, it was passed down to us. Baptism removes original sin. We do not, however, have personal responsibility for it. You’re right in saying that it’s a sin contracted and not committed, a state and not an act. Baptism removes this contracted state of sin which is Orignal Sin.
3. The Effects of Origina Sin is what we call concupiscence.

I have to go to my granddaughter’s play. Look up CCC no. 402 and 404 and 1263.

Just google the sacrament of baptism. I know this for sure because I taught it in catechism. Could the priests and all those catechism books be wrong???

Tomorrow
Fran

 

[Aloysium]

. . . kind of feeling a bit assaulted here . . .

Coraggio Francesca!

:twocents: , making a short story, very long, repeating what you already know, but hopefully worth the read:

If things don’t make sense, I pray and focus on in the moment.
I find the Catechism amazingly helpful in making sense of life.

I also find that the ultimate truths of reality are discovered on a visit to the corner store.

So, let’s say that as you were walking along, you tripped and fractured your knee cap. :crying:
Seeing this happening, I would go “ouch!!”, rush over, make sure you’re okey and dial 911. :console:
Alternatively, it is not outside the realm of human behaviour to imagine that instead, t might grab your purse and rruunnnnnnn!! :takeoff:

So what are we to make of all this?
Rocks seemingly just sit there, suns burst supernova; this is the sort of stuff we do - spectacular, amazing!

In the story, I go “ouch!!” not because I feel the pain, but because, sharing a common humanity, I know something of what you are experiencing.
Like one another, we hurt, laugh, think, perceive and so on. We do so, being all expressions of one mankind.

Superfantastically, as human beings, we are each of us, individual, unique and irreplaceable as ourselves, in our own existence…

While we do not and cannot bring ourselves into existence, we play a crucial role in who we become.
I am here because there is a Cause, far greater than I, who makes this all happen.
The created body-soul, God’s breath in clay, which is this “me”, interacts within the world and thereby causes us to become who we are as eternal beings.

At the Ground of being, in the Triune Godhead, we find Love.
Relationality is at the Core of existence and everything that is brought into creation.
We are in relation to God our Creator and our Guide back to His love.
Not only that; we are created Adam-Eve, self-other, of the same flesh and spirit, fully ourselves when we love.

Along with the different gifts and different circumstances given to us, we each have a destiny set by God.
That destiny is to exercise our faculties to bring love into the world.
It is an impossible challenge but for the very, very few, like our Blessed Mother.
However, Christ came into the world to offer Himself in atonement for our sins, to teach and through His incarnation, be the living Way by which we may grow into eternal loving union, participating in the Trinity.

While brought into being here and now, we have a past.
All this had a beginning and involved a process of ongoing transformation to get here.

Going back to our story about going to market, we have two persons meeting.
Implicit is the separateness that defines their individuality and a choice which we are required to make in deciding who we will be.
This is an ontological truth which originated in time and which is explained in Genesis, in language understandable by all people in all times through the grace of the Holy Spirit.

Adam as the first person, had the attributes of all mankind.
We are in him as he is in us.
He as an individual person committed a personal sin.
As mankind, in him we all chose to do our will.
In Adam we all sin, in Christ who became one of us, we can all be saved.
We are given a second chance to transform ourselves and this hellish world.
Becoming Christ-like we can choose what we forsook,
loving filial trust and obedience to our Father, whose wish for us is eternal happiness.

 

[Aloysium]

Oh yeah, the way I see it, we are baptized as the first step on our journey back to God.

 

[frangiuliano115]

Coraggio Francesca!

:twocents: , making a short story, very long, repeating what you already know, but hopefully worth the read:

If things don’t make sense, I pray and focus on in the moment.
I find the Catechism amazingly helpful in making sense of life.

I also find that the ultimate truths of reality are discovered on a visit to the corner store.

So, let’s say that as you were walking along, you tripped and fractured your knee cap. :crying:
Seeing this happening, I would go “ouch!!”, rush over, make sure you’re okey and dial 911. :console:
Alternatively, it is not outside the realm of human behaviour to imagine that instead, t might grab your purse and rruunnnnnnn!! :takeoff:

So what are we to make of all this?
Rocks seemingly just sit there, suns burst supernova; this is the sort of stuff we do - spectacular, amazing!

In the story, I go “ouch!!” not because I feel the pain, but because, sharing a common humanity, I know something of what you are experiencing.
Like one another, we hurt, laugh, think, perceive and so on. We do so, being all expressions of one mankind.

Superfantastically, as human beings, we are each of us, individual, unique and irreplaceable as ourselves, in our own existence…

While we do not and cannot bring ourselves into existence, we play a crucial role in who we become.
I am here because there is a Cause, far greater than I, who makes this all happen.
The created body-soul, God’s breath in clay, which is this “me”, interacts within the world and thereby causes us to become who we are as eternal beings.

At the Ground of being, in the Triune Godhead, we find Love.
Relationality is at the Core of existence and everything that is brought into creation.
We are in relation to God our Creator and our Guide back to His love.
Not only that; we are created Adam-Eve, self-other, of the same flesh and spirit, fully ourselves when we love.

Along with the different gifts and different circumstances given to us, we each have a destiny set by God.
That destiny is to exercise our faculties to bring love into the world.
It is an impossible challenge but for the very, very few, like our Blessed Mother.
However, Christ came into the world to offer Himself in atonement for our sins, to teach and through His incarnation, be the living Way by which we may grow into eternal loving union, participating in the Trinity.

While brought into being here and now, we have a past.
All this had a beginning and involved a process of ongoing transformation to get here.

Going back to our story about going to market, we have two persons meeting.
Implicit is the separateness that defines their individuality and a choice which we are required to make in deciding who we will be.
This is an ontological truth which originated in time and which is explained in Genesis, in language understandable by all people in all times through the grace of the Holy Spirit.

Adam as the first person, had the attributes of all mankind.
We are in him as he is in us.
He as an individual person committed a personal sin.
As mankind, in him we all chose to do our will.
In Adam we all sin, in Christ who became one of us, we can all be saved.
We are given a second chance to transform ourselves and this hellish world.
Becoming Christ-like we can choose what we forsook,
loving filial trust and obedience to our Father, whose wish for us is eternal happiness.

Grazie Aloysium,

Yes. What are we arguing about.

Your spirituality puts everything into focus.

Jesus is our goal.

you really have lifted a weight!

Buona Giornata
God bless you
Fran

 

[ericc]

We must be having a problem with WORDS here. You say the condition of orignal sin was passed down and not the sin itself.

I am fairly certain that the word OS when used in the catechism for the inherited sin cannot be referring to the personal sin of Adam, it must necessarily refer to the condition. For we are not accountable for our fathers’ sins. This is scripture based. (Same argument used on transgenerational sins and healing the family tree kind of stuff)

In fact the CC404 that you quoted says OS “is called “sin” only in an analogical sense”. This statement must therefore necessarily define all references to inherited OS in this manner.