Difficulties in the Final Judgment of the Wicked and Solutions

[Dranu]

I have been meditating on the final judgment of the wicked lately and have run across some difficulties. To understand this judgment is to understand how to think of justice and righteous anger since they are tied up to this perfect form (God’s eternal justice or eternal wrath). Since the lack of ‘anger’ (as an act of the will, not necessarily a feeling) in certain circumstances is a sin, I wish to know how to properly direct that faculty when encountering evil, and I feel slightly paralyzed in my difficulties. The Summa also has some talk on the subject in general here and here (I wish to emphasize and firmly agree with what he says in the second link where he seems to point out that although we are bound not to love the damned we must love all living sinners in kind since he is still capable of bliss). Anyhow, on to my difficulty:

It would seem that we (or God) cannot think well of or be happy with the final judgment of the fallen angels, yet to say this would mean that eternal happiness cannot be had since these fallen angels are eternally damned. I shall lay out the arguments to discuss where they may fail. I shall also list possible solutions I thought up.

Argument From God’s Hope and Happiness
1.) God will’s all to be saved. This necessarily means that God eternally hopes that all wills shall be open to Him (since He can save all such wills by His Grace)
2.) Some wills are eternally wicked. That is, some wills completely closed to God.
3.) For any hope, if the hope is not met, then the one who has the hope is unhappy in that way.
4.) God is eternally unhappy (because of the wicked wills of the damned that can never be open to Him). But this conclusion seems bad for it is only proper that God be eternally happy.

Argument From Evil Causes
1.) The damnation of the wicked is caused by the wills of the wicked and God’s justice. (For God cannot be the sufficient cause of the wicked’s judgment since God does not will them to be wicked, but only wills that the wicked be rebuked)
2.) The wills of the wicked are evil
3.) God’s justice is good.
4.) If any effect is a combination of more than one cause, any single cause cannot be an explanation in itself but only in combination.
5.) An effect’s quality as good or evil is known by a conjunction of the quality (as good or evil) of the causes.
6.) The damnation of the wicked cannot be good in itself since it is also caused by evil. More to the point, it is good and evil. (This would mean that we cannot think the damnation of the wicked is good, but that seems absurd since it would mean its opposite is good. It would also mean God would be unhappy with their damnation since it is not ‘good’).

Anyhow these are some of the difficulties I have run into. First, that the damnation of the wicked seems to be an eternal source of unhappiness for the righteous. Second, because the fact of the wicked being damned is bad because it is not efficiently caused by good but is also the work of the wicked.

Continued…

 

[Dranu]

Proposed Solutions

1.) For the first argument, perhaps it is for God to be eternally unhappy. Then again, perhaps His Wrath is a manifestation of making His hope a reality, and so perhaps we can interpret the fact that “God wills all to be saved” not as “God eternally hopes that all wills shall be open to Him”, but rather that “God wills the good of all,” but that this will has nothing to do with the wills of others (thus the first premise is false). Thus, for those who eternally will against God, God wills their good of Divine Wrath, and God’s hope is complete in their judgment as their good is received. This simplistic solution appears to fail since our sins in this life merit the good of our damnation, yet God lovingly decides to suffer injustice to Himself in the form of a man so that our good can again be eternal life, and so it again appears that God hopes all will have eternal life, and hence that all have an open will to Him.

Another possibility is that God can only hope for anything (which is not really a true limit ). A contradiction is not a thing (e.g. a four-sided triangle), thus God cannot hope for those who will to be closed to Him to be open to Him insofar as their wills are eternally closed (for to hope otherwise would be to hope for a permanently closed thing to be not permanently closed, which is absurd). According to this solution, premise 1 is also false, and it should rather be that “God hopes that all wills that can be, shall be open to Him.” Thus, the argument would be rendered invalid, and it would appear God is not disturbed by the damned, even though He may have done everything in His power to prevent their damnation. The talk of God’s sadness at the damned would thus be more an analogy to the fact that God did everything to prevent such a fate, not that He is disturbed at the outcome. Furthermore, such a solution would mean we must do everything we can to lovingly help our neighbors and ourselves escape final judgment and enter into eternal happiness, no matter how fallen the individual, for we should weep bitterly for any sin or sinner who still lives. Yet, at the same time, the solution does not necessitate that we have pity or sadness on the damned or an act of sin itself (which cannot change, though the person it came through may). I think this is a solid solution to that argument, but that still leaves us with the latter argument as to whether we can think punishment of the wicked is good.

2.) For the second argument, I am thinking that perhaps premise 5 is false in that the combination of something unqualifiedly good and something evil does not produce something that is a conjunction of the two, but rather that the combination is completely good (By analogy I would liken evil to the void and good to substance. When the two are brought together in conjunction only substance is left which completely eliminates the void). It would also seem odd that the damnation of the wicked by God is ‘good and evil in itself’ which seems like a plain contradiction but is the conclusion premise 5 leads to. It just seems intuitive that the evil of the eternally wicked wills is blotted out by God’s wrath as to make all things ‘good’. I shall also add that it might be proper to say “God wills the wicked not to be wicked” and since God cannot force a free will (otherwise the will would be free and not free which is contradictory), perhaps His Wrath makes their wills good in that they receive God’s fury and are made good by this. But since they are only made good by this (since they cannot be changed themselves), the wrath must be eternal. I find this solution to be far less logically clear or certain than the previous one.

Anyhow, I am looking for some (name removed by moderator)ut (either in the form of purely philosophical reasoning or deductively from doctrinal pronouncements).

 

[You]

…Thus, the argument would be rendered invalid, and it would appear God is not disturbed by the damned…

I think He says what He feels about that here;

And a certain man said to him: Lord, are they few that are saved? But he said to them: [24] Strive to enter by the narrow gate; for many, I say to you, shall seek to enter, and shall not be able. [25] But when the master of the house shall be gone in, and shall shut the door, you shall begin to stand without, and knock at the door, saying: Lord, open to us. And he answering, shall say to you: I know you not,** whence you are.**

[26] Then you shall begin to say: We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. [27] And he shall say to you: I know you not, whence you are: depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. [28] There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you shall see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

 

[TomD123]

I too wonder about similar ideas including what would somebody feel if a family member was in hell. Your ideas are interesting, here are some of mine

1st of all, God’s will and happiness are not exactly the same as ours. God’s happiness does not center around us b/c that would mean God changes i.e. he would be changing his state of happiness/unhappiness based on creation. God’s happiness is a happiness in the fact that he is complete and all-good. God is the essence of happiness, therefore we cannot alter his joy. God’s will is one of love and justice. God wills that all may be saved and what I think this means is not that God has some huge emotional desire to save us (emotions seem human, transient/changing, and partially physical) but God DOES all that he can to save us. God created us not because he felt an urge to give us eternal happiness but because he chose to, God became man not because he would have been sad if we were not in heaven but rather he wanted us in heaven so that we could be happy, etc.
So thats my opinion on God’s happiness even though there are people who are damned
Next, I think that your first opinion that God is eternally unhappy would be false, as you said it is unsatisfying. The main problem i have w/ the theories here is with God’s hope rather than will, idk though? Its interesting
Is a combo of good and evil good or evil? i think it depends. In the situation of the damned i would say that God’s justice is perfect and manifests itself when punishing sin, so i guess the punishment of those in hell is a good, just not for the damned?

Not sure about this, its a tough topic:shrug:. What do you think?

 

[bogeydogg]

Scripture does not say that seeks our happiness or his own, but rather his own glory. God’s desire is to be praised. Therefore if a merciful God grants mercy to the penitent that God is glorified for His mercy. If a holy God condemns the impenitent that God is glorified for His justice.

However in Ezekiel God tells people that he takes no pleasure in the destruction of the wicked, however God’s love and compassion cannot do violence to His justice or else His injustice would be imperfect and thus God would be imperfect and therefore not God. God will not compromise his own glory or holiness to accommodate the wicked however that does not mean that God enjoys punishing the wicked.

So the punishment of the wicked is a moral good but not a joy.

 

[Dranu]

God’s happiness does not center around us b/c that would mean God changes i.e. he would be changing his state of happiness/unhappiness based on creation. God’s happiness is a happiness in the fact that he is complete and all-good.

I don’t know what to think on this yet, I haven’t deeply pondered God’s impassibility and so forth, but it would seem God would not even tolerate evil or if He did (as it seems with our free wills) it would be to turn it into a good that would blot out that evil.

God created us not because he felt an urge to give us eternal happiness but because he chose to,

I agree with you on the emotions stuff. I do not think God has ‘emotions’ or ‘urges’. I do, however, think He acts from internal necessity, but that this necessity is free since it is internal (or Himself). In other words, I think He freely chose to do as He did even though He could not have done otherwise (That’s more my understanding from thinking on it rather than directly seeing the Church pronounce it, so I hope that is orthodox ).

Is a combo of good and evil good or evil? i think it depends. In the situation of the damned i would say that God’s justice is perfect and manifests itself when punishing sin, so i guess the punishment of those in hell is a good, just not for the damned?

Ya this is the greatest difficulty for me. If something is caused by both good and evil can it possibly be good?

I do think that hell is good for the damned (God’s Wrath is their objective good because of their wills even though they subjectively hate His Justice). It just seems like it might be an eyesore for God and the blessed since it was not just caused by God’s good act of justice but also by the wills who resisted Him. However, I have no solid philosophical proof either way. At the moment I think that hell is most likely not a point of ugliness for the blessed since it seems that “He will wipe every tear from their eyes, and there shall be no more death or mourning, wailing or pain, (for) the old order has passed away,” (Rev 21:4). So if we take that verse literally and assume the blessed are aware of the punishment of hell, then it seems that the damnation of the wicked must be completely good.

 

[kentuckyliz]

Can God “hope”? That seems to imply linear time. Time is matter moving in relation to other matter; time requires creation. God is outside of time and not dependent on it or creation.

So we are experiencing time, but God is experiencing the eternal now–everything all at once. Ergo God cannot hope.

 

[Dranu]

So we are experiencing time, but God is experiencing the eternal now–everything all at once. Ergo God cannot hope.

Agreed, that would be a way to deal with it if hope is necessarily temporal. If we put it in terms of ‘will’ rather than ‘hope’, God would will all who can be saved to be saved, but those eternally closed to Him He cannot will to be saved since to be saved means to be open to Him and thus He would have to will for the ‘permanently closed to not be permanently closed’ but that is a contradiction. Thus He does not will the damned to be saved at all. Furthermore, the claim that 'God wills all to be saved '(rather than just who can be) merely refers to a temporal relationship we have to God, or it refers to the fact that the damned are not damned due to God’s will alone but also to theirs.

Any thoughts on the second problem of evil causes?

 

[kentuckyliz]

God won’t save someone against their will. I’m not sure what the difficulty is. Do we not cherish our freedom? Would we not rather love God, than to be slave-robots?

 

[PAboy57]

God is goodness, love and mercy for our asking during our lifetime. If we choose to ignore His love, break His commandments and not seek forgiveness, then we are closed to having a relationship with Him. Through the sacraments, prayer and His church we have every possible chance to choose Him and attone for our sinfulness.

When we die God becomes Judge. He must judge fairly according to our level of goodness and evil. He has no problem providing everyone exactly what they deserve.

People going to heaven will understand the condition of the damned but it will not have any impact on their heavenly joy. We will understand, through additional wisdom provided to us by God, and be OK with that to say it simply.

You are right that family members will be divided between heaven and hell. So we must, in the best interest of our loved ones and friends, make the effort while living so they choose eternal life. Husband and wife for example should be working to ensure each will end up in heaven.

For those in heaven – all the tears will be wiped away and we cannot even begin to imagine the joy God has planned for us. The choice is up to us.

It is very difficult to understand everything in our human condition. Work to follow God’s wonderful plan for us.

I hope that helps. May God Bless you and give you strength and understanding.

 

[Dranu]

God won’t save someone against their will. I’m not sure what the difficulty is.

The second argument lays out the difficulty I have. Basically if the punishment of the wicked is not just caused by God judging but also by the fact that the judged are wicked (otherwise the judgment would result in eternal happiness), it would seem the punishment is both good and bad rather than simply good.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I think there’s just lack of understanding what it really means to be in heaven. God loves us no matter what we do. The problem is with us, do we love God as well? God can’t force us into His company if we do not want to be there. The judgment is just God looking at our conscience and seeing what we really want. Did we desire to be with Him or not? He’s not going to send anyone to hell who did their best to be with Him. And He is not going to send someone to heaven for those who reviled His ways.