Difficulties understanding the Holy Trinity

[Rozellelily]

I find it hard to understand the Holy Trinity.
In the garden Jesus prayed to God His Father in Heaven to take his fate away if it be Gods will but how does this make sense if Jesus is God?
How can he pray to a God in heaven if God is him?Was he really praying to the ‘sky’ or rather to an aspect of Himself internally?
It’s really hard to grasp…

Also why did Jesus just come to save the Jews if He/God already knew they would reject him?
Also,isn’t it a but unfair that only Jews and not Greeks or Arabs etc or were they so bad back then (the other tribes) and I’m looking at it through modern eyes?

 

[Mintaka]

Are you telling me that you never argue with yourself?

More seriously, this is more a theology or sacred scripture question…

Jesus constantly said that He and the Father were one, and the Father sent signs to concur. There is a ton of stuff about Jesus and the Holy Spirit also.

Jesus came first for the Jews, but also for the Gentiles. This was fully outlined in Isaiah and other prophets, Jesus quoted those parts of the Bible, and Jesus deliberately spent a good chunk of his ministry in pagan areas. Many Jews did not reject Jesus, and a fairly large number joined as soon as the Church started preaching.

Jews were not the chosen people because they were better; they were chosen because of Abraham and God’s covenant promise. Being chosen helped many become better people, because God is a good teacher.

 

[Vico]

I find it hard to understand the Holy Trinity.
In the garden Jesus prayed to God His Father in Heaven to take his fate away if it be Gods will but how does this make sense if Jesus is God?
How can he pray to a God in heaven if God is him?Was he really praying to the ‘sky’ or rather to an aspect of Himself internally?
It’s really hard to grasp…

Also why did Jesus just come to save the Jews if He/God already knew they would reject him?
Also,isn’t it a but unfair that only Jews and not Greeks or Arabs etc or were they so bad back then (the other tribes) and I’m looking at it through modern eyes?

From the Nicene-Constantinople Creed:

I believe … and in one Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, the only-begotten, born of the Father before all ages. Light from light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, one in essence with the Father; through Him all things were made. …

The Son of God has two natures (human and divine) in one person. The human nature has a rational soul and a physical body (which is now glorified). The Son of God assumed a human nature in Jesus without any change to divinity.

A person can freely cooperate with the gift of grace or not. Some Jews and some Gentiles are saved.

 

[HeDa]

You are not the only one. Think of this: How can the Creator of the universe, who doesn’t have a beginning or end and is ever now, become a human baby and still remain fully God at the same time? It surpasses our human understanding.

People of all ages have had difficulties understanding the Holy Trinity and people of all ages will continue to not fully understand the Trinity. We might get a higher understanding of the Holy Trinity in heaven but to fully grasp it - no. This is the mystery of God. It is time to move from the brain into the heart and take a leap of faith as difficult at it might seem.

 

[mrsdizzyd]

In the garden Jesus prayed to God His Father in Heaven to take his fate away if it be Gods will but how does this make sense if Jesus is God?
How can he pray to a God in heaven if God is him?Was he really praying to the ‘sky’ or rather to an aspect of Himself internally?
It’s really hard to grasp…

I like what the Haydock says on this scripture:

Ver. 39. Going a little further. St. Luke says, about a stone’s cast, kneeling down; or as here in Matthew, prostrating himself. He did both. — Father, if it is possible. Which is the same, says St. Augustine, as if he said, if thou wilt, let this cup of sufferings pass from me. — Nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt. He that was God and man, had both a divine and a human will. He was pleased to let us know what he naturally feared, as man, and in the sensitive part of his soul; yet shews his human will had nothing contrary to his divine will, by presently adding, but not my will, but thine be done. Here, as related by St. Luke, followed his bloody sweat. (Luke xxii. 43[44?].) (Witham) — These words are a source of instruction for all Christians. These words inflame the breasts of confessors; the same also crown the fortitude of the martyrs. For, who could overcome the hatred of the world, the assaults of temptations, and the terrors of persecutors, unless Christ in all, and for all, had said to his eternal Father: Nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou willest. Let all the children of the Church then understand well these words, that when calamities violently beat upon us, we may with resignation exclaim: nevertheless, not as I will, but, &c. (St. Leo the great)

 

[Ioannes_L]

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
The great Doctor of the Church St. Augustine of Hippo spent over 30 years working on his treatise De Trinitate [about the Holy Trinity], endeavoring to conceive an intelligible explanation for the mystery of the Trinity.

He was walking by the seashore one day contemplating and trying to understand the mystery of the Holy Trinity when he saw a small boy running back and forth from the water to a spot on the seashore. The boy was using a sea shell to carry the water from the ocean and place it into a small hole in the sand.

The Bishop of Hippo approached him and asked, “My boy, what are doing?”

“I am trying to bring all the sea into this hole,” the boy replied with a sweet smile.

“But that is impossible, my dear child, the hole cannot contain all that water” said Augustine.

The boy paused in his work, stood up, looked into the eyes of the Saint, and replied, “It is no more impossible than what you are trying to do – comprehend the immensity of the mystery of the Holy Trinity with your small intelligence.”

The Saint was absorbed by such a keen response from that child, and turned his eyes from him for a short while. When he glanced down to ask him something else, the boy had vanished.

Some say that it was an Angel sent by God to teach Augustine a lesson on pride in learning. Others affirm it was the Christ Child Himself who appeared to the Saint to remind him of the limits of human understanding before the great mysteries of our Faith.

https://www.traditioninaction.org/religious/h065rp.Shell.html

 

[1ke]

but how does this make sense if Jesus is God?

Jesus is fully God and fully man. He prayed in his humanity.

How can he pray to a God in heaven if God is him?

God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are three persons in one God. He prayed to the Father. The Father is not the Son.

Also why did Jesus just come to save the Jews if He/God already knew they would reject him?

Because he has a covenant with his people.

Also,isn’t it a but unfair that only Jews and not Greeks or Arabs etc or were they so bad back then (the other tribes) and I’m looking at it through modern eyes?

Jesus came to save all people.

 

[porthos11]

I’d like to understand this myself. I once asked a knowledgeable man and he explained it in a completely circular way, fully incomprehensible but fully explained. Perhaps that’s how it is.

Apparently St Patrick would use the analogy of the shamrock to explain the Trinity, one leaf but with three protrusions, we all know the shape of the shamrock this one appears to have some extra lumps.

Another article explains it as H2O, which can be in liquid, gas or solid ice form. However, the Trinity is not one of those at a time but all three so that analogy can be broken too easily.

Another way to look at the Trinity is as a three person family, the Father, Mother and Son, which also doesn’t quite work but may be useful to a degree.

Yet another way to look at it is by using the analogy of the Sun, God being the Sun, Jesus being the light and The Holy Spirit being the heat pervading everywhere, even in the darkness.

Nevertheless when asking “how come …” one of these analogies may fit quite well.

Jesus said that “before Abraham I am…” He also told us He was the way, the truth and the life.

God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, the Triune God.

I’ll carry on researching, it’s an interesting topic.

All analogies for the Trinity will inevitably end up confessing some kind of old heresy.

Shamrock = “partialism” heresy; orthodox teaching is that God is absolutely simple.
Water = modalism/“Sabellanism”; orthodox teaching is that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are truly distinct.
Father/Mother/Son = polytheism; orthodox teaching is that God is a single substance/essence.
Sun = Arianism heresy; orthodox teaching is that the Father, Son and Spirit are of a single substance and co-eternal, and the Son and Spirit are Uncreated.

Knowing the heresies are good because a key part of understanding the Trinity is negative: knowing what God is not, in addition to knowing what he is. Often, revealed truths require us to think in terms of what God is not, such as through the heresies described above.

 

[Lee1]

Thank you.
My words are nothing but straw.

 

[Rozellelily]

God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are three persons in one God. He prayed to the Father. The Father is not the Son.

But then it makes it seem like he was praying to something distinct from himself.
If the father/son/Holy Spirit are one,then wouldn’t the Father have been “in” the son in his human incarnation?

 

[Eric_Hyom]

Could the greatest commandments possibly describe how Christ is ‘One with the Father’?

God the Son, loves the Father with all his heart, soul, mind and strength.
Jesus loves all of us as he loves himself.

God the Father returns the same perfect love.

God the Father loves God the Son with all his heart, soul, mind and strength.
God the Father loves each and everyone of us as he loves himself.

 

[Vico]

1ke:

God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are three persons in one God. He prayed to the Father. The Father is not the Son.

But then it makes it seem like he was praying to something distinct from himself.
If the father/son/Holy Spirit are one,then wouldn’t the Father have been “in” the son in his human incarnation?

Although one person, The Son of God, there are two natures there and two wills.
Catechism

475 Similarly, at the sixth ecumenical council, Constantinople III in 681, the Church confessed that Christ possesses two wills and two natural operations, divine and human. They are not opposed to each other, but cooperate in such a way that the Word made flesh willed humanly in obedience to his Father all that he had decided divinely with the Father and the Holy Spirit for our salvation.110 Christ’s human will "does not resist or oppose but rather submits to his divine and almighty will."111

110. Cf. Council of Constantinople III (681): DS 556-559.
111. Council of Constantinople III: DS 556.

 

[Rob2]

I find it hard to understand the Holy Trinity.

You will never understand the Trinity . No one does other than the three persons who make up the trinity .

You seem to be neglecting the reality of the Trinity being three person .

 

[1ke]

But then it makes it seem like he was praying to something distinct from himself.

He was.

If the father/son/Holy Spirit are one,

They are one God. But they are three persons.

Who? Father. Son. Holy Spirit.
What? God.

I recommend Frank Sheed’s book Theology for Beginners if you are struggling with this.

then wouldn’t the Father have been “in” the son in his human incarnation?

No. They are three persons. One God.

 

[porthos11]

1ke:

God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are three persons in one God. He prayed to the Father. The Father is not the Son.

But then it makes it seem like he was praying to something distinct from himself.
If the father/son/Holy Spirit are one,then wouldn’t the Father have been “in” the son in his human incarnation?

Because he WAS praying to someone distinct from himself. Jesus is the Son incarnate, who is a Person distinct from the Father. The Father did not become man, and neither did the Spirit.

And yet, the Father is God, the Son is God, and Spirit is God. And yet there are not three Gods but one God.

That is the mystery of the Trinity.

 

[Rozellelily]

By three persons do you mean three aspects?
If they were literally three persons then wouldnt we be worshipping threee gods?

 

[Rob2]

By three persons do you mean three aspects?

No by three persons I mean three persons , but don’t expect me to explain it because we are referring to the very essence of God which is ineffable .

 

[porthos11]

By three persons do you mean three aspects?
If they were literally three persons then wouldnt we be worshipping threee gods?

No and no. Thatis modalism and polytheism repectively. Both are contrary to the Christian faith.

For the synthesis of what we truly believe read the Athanasian Creed.

 

[meltzerboy2]

One question, 1ke. My confusion about the Trinity is not so much the difference between Jesus, the Son and Gd, the Father, since Jesus is both human and divine while the Father is only divine. Or am I wrong about this? My problem is with the Holy Spirit; that is, how is the Holy Spirit a different Person from Gd the Father? Is it that the Holy Spirit is within each of us, while Gd the Father is not? But I thought Gd the Father is omnipresent, which would mean He too is within us. So what exactly is the distinction?

 

[Paytheon]

Jesus was with God before the earth existed, left His glory with the Father and was born of a virgin, lived a perfect, sinless life, died on Calvary for your redemption, and was raised again after three days. Today He is in heaven and His sacrifice has provided a way for you to come to a saving faith. Being saved is fully a work of God. No one is saved by works. No one is saved by their own efforts. It is by grace alone, in faith alone, by Jesus alone. It is a gift of God (Eph 2:8-9). We pray that you will come to believe in Jesus Christ, be born-again, and be saved today.

Not my quote but hope it helps.