Difficulties with the concept of intercessory prayer

[francesca_gen]

I have some trouble with the concept of intercessory prayer.

I can see praying for something that relates to me and is interior – conversion of heart, healing, etc.

But once I get outside of that, I feel uneasy (though I do it, since intellectually I know I am supposed to).

There are two things that bother me. Basically, I feel like in some ways I’m trying to meddle in others’ free will, and in others, I’m asking God to do what obviously God would want to do anyway. (When praying for myself, the first doesn’t apply, and the second doesn’t really seem to either, since because of our free will, God would need the subject [me], to be willing, and if I’m doing the praying, then I must be.)

For example – if I pray for a friend to return to the Church, I feel like I am praying for them to do something they apparently don’t want to do. And if God were going to do something about it, wouldn’t He do it without my asking? I know there are examples from St. Monica on down… but still.

Or what about praying for someone’s safety? Wouldn’t God want them to be safe even if I didn’t ask Him (or ask a saint to intercede)?

I remember on the Friday after 9/11 we were asked to stop at noon and pray that they would find any survivors ASAP, and that they would indeed still find some. I found myself thinking, “We even need to ASK God this?”

I also can’t believe God would change his mind about something because of prayers. And how does this all fit in with God’s knowledge of all our ultimate choices and destiny?

 

[Morwenna]

Hi Francesca,

I think many of us have had similar thoughts at times, but here are a couple of points that might help:

1. Prayer is not just a way of asking for things, but a way of deepening and strengthening our relationship with God, regardless of the ‘outcome’ of the prayer (i.e., whether you get exactly what you prayed for, when you wanted it). Also, I believe that a strong prayer life helps us on our own individual path to holiness, and thus also helps us to be better neighbors to those around us.
2. I think it’s nicer that we do ask God for things, rather than just taking Him for granted … thinking that He knows our needs, so why can’t He just take care of things and be done with it? As a parent, wouldn’t it be nicer if your children asked you for things (and thanked you afterward!), instead of just taking for granted all the loving things that you do for them?

I don’t know if what I’ve written will be of help to you, but I just wanted to share a few thoughts.

 

[mdgspencer]

God often calls on use to pray for others before he will act because he wants us to grow in love and mercy. A lost soul, for one, is responsible for the path he has taken, and God is not obliged to give him the grace to repent, but his own love and mercy mirrors the love and mercy he wants us to have as we pray for others, and so in this way he often desires to save and help others. This puts a great responsibilty on us to pray for others.
I think of one example of such prayer in Scripture. When Saint Stephen was martyed in Jerusalem, he prayed for his persecutors. One of them, a man who watched the clothes of the men who stoned him, was Saint Paul, who was converted shortly afterwards when Christ appeared to him. It is hard for me not to believe that Saint Stephen’s prayer was a main reason for Paul’s conversion.

 

[Paladin_V]

This is certainly something I have thought about too… and I have recently read about it as well. I’ll share the quotes directly so as not to mess them up. They are from “Christian Perfection and Contemplation” by Fr. Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange in the section on prayer in general.

“Not only all that happens has been foreseen and willed, or at least permitted, in advance by a providential decree, but the way things happen, the causes that produce events, all have been determined from all eternity by Providence.”

“Prayer is precisely a cause ordained to produce this effect, the obtaining of God’s gifts necessary or useful for salvation.”

“Is it surprising that divine Providence wills that man should ask for alms, since man understands that he lives only on alms? Here as elsewhere, God wills first of all the final effect, then He ordains the means and the causes which are to produce it. After deciding to give, He decides that we shall pray in order to receive; just as a father, who purposes in advance to grant a favor to his chilren, resolves to make them ask for it.”

“A jet of water cannot rise unless the water descends from an equal height. Likewise, when we pray it is not a question of persuading God, of inclining Him, of changing His providential dispositions; it is simply a question of raising our will to the level of His will so as to will with Him what He has decided to give us, the good things useful to our sanctification and salvation.”

 

[Paladin_V]

I just had another thought of my own to share as well. We believe that we can do nothing good without the grace of God. Every single good thing we do is because God has given us the grace to do it, choose it, etc. In every thing we do, sufficient grace is offered to do good, although we may not accept it.

I know this is a very spotty explanation of grace, but I’ll leave it at that to make my main point.

If every good thing requires the grace of God acting in us, every good thing someone else does requires God’s grace. So really when we pray for someone, we are praying the God gives them the grace to follow His will. This grace is not a violation of free will, but rather gently guides the person towards Him, if they let it. They are given the free will to reject the grace, however. So when we pray for someone, we are asking God to give them the grace to follow Him. Furthermore, in line with what I posted above, sometimes He may ordain things so that a special grace is only given on some else’s request (perhaps).

Just my own, hopefully semi-coherent, thoughts on prayer and grace.

 

[brigid12]

I just had another thought of my own to share as well. We believe that we can do nothing good without the grace of God. Every single good thing we do is because God has given us the grace to do it, choose it, etc. In every thing we do, sufficient grace is offered to do good, although we may not accept it.

If every good thing requires the grace of God acting in us, every good thing someone else does requires God’s grace. So really when we pray for someone, we are praying the God gives them the grace to follow His will. This grace is not a violation of free will, but rather gently guides the person towards Him, if they let it. They are given the free will to reject the grace, however. So when we pray for someone, we are asking God to give them the grace to follow Him. Furthermore, in line with what I posted above, sometimes He may ordain things so that a special grace is only given on some else’s request (perhaps).

Just my own, hopefully semi-coherent, thoughts on prayer and grace.

Wonderful!

francesca,

God needs us to know that we can only rely on Him for all good things. He also wants an opening for His Grace to slide through - our prayer can provide that opening. Even in His words to St. Faustina He said that His promises would hold as long as we show mercy and that intercessory prayer was just such a merciful act.

JPII relates, in the book about him by Peggy Noonan (the title escapes me at the moment, sorry) says that when he was young he felt strange about praying for others or for himself. He said that “now” (I think that book was written in the last years of his life/papacy) he asked for loads of things all the time.

Another thing, even tho’ our prayer isn’t going to change His “mind” it allows us to more and more see things from His viewpoint - I change my mind about what I want (for myself or others) all the time in mid-prayer.

 

[LilyM]

Remember that every time you say the ‘Our Father’ it’s an intercessory prayer - you’re praying for Him to supply others’ needs, forgive their sins, to make them more forgiving and help them in times of temptation. And it has the endorsement of Our Lord Himself!

Does it matter that He already knows your and their needs and what you’re going to ask for? No. Ask any person whether they can hear ‘I love you’ often enough, even if they know it’s going to be said.

 

[francesca_gen]

Thanks everybody for your thoughts. Need to head off to bed early tonight but will be thinking about all this and will respond tomorrow. But just to say everyone’s replies have been helpful and have given me food for thought.

Thanks again!

 

[puzzleannie]

I
There are two things that bother me. Basically, I feel like in some ways I’m trying to meddle in others’ free will, and in others, I’m asking God to do what obviously God would want to do anyway. (When praying for myself, the first doesn’t apply, and the second doesn’t really seem to either, since because of our free will, God would need the subject [me], to be willing, and if I’m doing the praying, then I must be.)
?

your instincts are right, but premises may be at fault. We do not pray to change another person, but to change ourselves, and we always pray to become ourselves in conformity with God’s will. that is the basis of all prayer. The false premise, shared by many, is that intercessory prayer equates to non-negotiable demands against God, and orders to the Holy Spirit to convert another person. When praying for another person we are praying that all, we, they, and everyone, be in conformity with God’s will, but since Jesus told us explicitly to ask for the good things we need, it behooves us to ask.

But we don’t say, God please make Jack stop being such a jerk and running around on his wife, we say please heal Jack and his marriage, we don’t do the diagnosis and we do not affect the healing.

We don’t say, God please take away this pain in my elbow, we say God please heal me. He alone knows what the real illness is that requires healing.

the other reason it is necessary to pray for the good of others is to counteract vices of envy, greed, jealousy, detraction etc. and to enter into compassion (not pity) for their condition.

 

[Spirithound]

Basically, I feel like in some ways I’m trying to meddle in others’ free will, and in others, I’m asking God to do what obviously God would want to do anyway.

For example – if I pray for a friend to return to the Church, I feel like I am praying for them to do something they apparently don’t want to do. And if God were going to do something about it, wouldn’t He do it without my asking? I know there are examples from St. Monica on down… but still.

Or what about praying for someone’s safety? Wouldn’t God want them to be safe even if I didn’t ask Him (or ask a saint to intercede)?

I remember on the Friday after 9/11 we were asked to stop at noon and pray that they would find any survivors ASAP, and that they would indeed still find some. I found myself thinking, “We even need to ASK God this?”

I also can’t believe God would change his mind about something because of prayers. And how does this all fit in with God’s knowledge of all our ultimate choices and destiny?

If I pray for my brother’s conversion, I’m not asking for God to take away part of his free will. It seems to me that there’s something that he’s missing, God could perhaps supply him with a little experience of Christ, or effect a coincidence to put him in touch with someone who could witness to him (which would not involve removal of the witness’s free will ). All in all, these things are graces which God can give and could be very helpful in bringing someone back to Him.

As for praying for someone’s safety, I don’t think it follows that God would obviously want that. This life is but a speck compared to what is next, and He can and does reclaim us at any time, and give us various crosses to carry throughout.

So, how does this fit in with God’s omniscience? The answer I have received is very philosophical…are you sure there’s not another thread to cover it? Anyways, the father who gives his children everything they don’t necessarily need gets spoiled brats.

 

[Belle10]

Here’s a post I wrote in response to a thread called “petitionary prayer - a charade?”
(forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=216643&highlight=intercessory+prayer)

Prayers of petition are a good thing. Yes, God already knows what we need and what will happen, but when we pray for someone, it shows God that we acknowledge our dependence on Him, that we need Him for everything. Here’s an example:

My then 52-year-old mother had a brain aneurysm rupture in 2003. Miraculously (and I am using that term in its full meaning), she not only made it to the hospital (50% are dead within minutes and don’t make it to the hospital) and made it through brain surgery 2 days later (50% don’t), she was back teaching her elementary school class 4 months later. Yup - miraculous - no rehab needed (almost everyone who has this happen needs some kind of rehab). Oh, and why did they wait 2 days to do the surgery? Because it ruptured on Christmas Eve and the doctor didn’t have his usual top expert team because everyone had the holiday off.

During those days, weeks, and months, there were literally thousands of people praying for my mother. Family and friends told their families and friends, and my mom’s name was included in the prayers of petition in many Masses across the country. Did God know the ordeal my mother and our family would go through? Yes. Did He know who would pray for her? Yes. Did He need all of us praying in order to heal her? No. But maybe that no can be seen two ways:

1. No - of course not, He’s God, He doesn’t NEED our help to do anything - He is omnipotent.
2. No - well, maybe. Not that He needed our help, but that His plan for all of our lives - all of those who prayed for my mother and our family - included those prayers we said. We always wonder why this happened to Mom, what the point of it was, if God was going to heal her anyway…what we come up with is that somehow, my mother went through that because maybe one person out of the thousands who prayed had turned away from God, but because of that crisis, turned back to God in asking Him to help my mother. If one person came back to God (or came to God, period) then that whole terrifying ordeal was well worth it.

So, prayer of petition, I believe, are not only OK, but wonderful! Does God gives us every answer we want? No, but if we can grow closer to God through our prayers (as we should, and no matter what the “answer” is), then that is validation enough to ask for what we or others need. Remember, prayer is supposed to be a conversation with our Lord.

I hope this helps. PM me if you want. God bless!

 

[francesca_gen]

Hi Francesca,

1. I think it’s nicer that we do ask God for things, rather than just taking Him for granted … thinking that He knows our needs, so why can’t He just take care of things and be done with it? As a parent, wouldn’t it be nicer if your children asked you for things (and thanked you afterward!), instead of just taking for granted all the loving things that you do for them?

I don’t know if what I’ve written will be of help to you, but I just wanted to share a few thoughts.

That definitely makes sense; lets me look at it from a different angle.

Francesca

 

[francesca_gen]

I think of one example of such prayer in Scripture. When Saint Stephen was martyed in Jerusalem, he prayed for his persecutors. One of them, a man who watched the clothes of the men who stoned him, was Saint Paul, who was converted shortly afterwards when Christ appeared to him. It is hard for me not to believe that Saint Stephen's prayer was a main reason for Paul's conversion.

Good point… thank you for the thought and the example. Sometimes I need a good concrete situation to relate to!

Francesca

 

[francesca_gen]

I

If every good thing requires the grace of God acting in us, every good thing someone else does requires God’s grace. So really when we pray for someone, we are praying the God gives them the grace to follow His will. This grace is not a violation of free will, but rather gently guides the person towards Him, if they let it. They are given the free will to reject the grace, however. So when we pray for someone, we are asking God to give them the grace to follow Him. Furthermore, in line with what I posted above, sometimes He may ordain things so that a special grace is only given on some else’s request (perhaps).

Just my own, hopefully semi-coherent, thoughts on prayer and grace.

Argh, just replied and then my DSL went down. Let me try again!

Thank you for the quote and the book reference – another one for the to-read list! And I’d never thought that it might be possible that a grace may only be given if someone/someone else asks for it. That’s definitely worth pondering.

I have prayed for people with the thought in mind that they just be open to something… gently guiding, as you say.

Thanks again!

Francesca

 

[francesca_gen]

Wonderful!

francesca,

God needs us to know that we can only rely on Him for all good things. He also wants an opening for His Grace to slide through - our prayer can provide that opening. Even in His words to St. Faustina He said that His promises would hold as long as we show mercy and that intercessory prayer was just such a merciful act.

Aha… that does make sense, too.

I’m gathering up all of these pieces of wisdom and they’re easing a lot of my discomfort/concern about the issue. I really appreciate it.

I also like the image of the Pope asking for “loads of things all the time.” I certainly won’t argue there!

Francesca

 

[francesca_gen]

your instincts are right, but premises may be at fault. We do not pray to change another person, but to change ourselves, and we always pray to become ourselves in conformity with God’s will. that is the basis of all prayer. The false premise, shared by many, is that intercessory prayer equates to non-negotiable demands against God, and orders to the Holy Spirit to convert another person. When praying for another person we are praying that all, we, they, and everyone, be in conformity with God’s will, but since Jesus told us explicitly to ask for the good things we need, it behooves us to ask.

Yes, I definitely see that. And I do it, because it’s quite clear that I’m supposed to. I’ve just always had the discomfort. I don’t think I exactly thought of it as a non-negotiable demand, but I did kind of see it as being bossy. I’m starting to feel better about it all.

But we don’t say, God please make Jack stop being such a jerk and running around on his wife, we say please heal Jack and his marriage, we don’t do the diagnosis and we do not affect the healing.

I *love *this! It casts a new light on interceding for me.

the other reason it is necessary to pray for the good of others is to counteract vices of envy, greed, jealousy, detraction etc. and to enter into compassion (not pity) for their condition.

Oh yes, so true. (Who, me, envious, etc?)

Thank you!

Franceca

 

[francesca_gen]

Remember that every time you say the ‘Our Father’ it’s an intercessory prayer - you’re praying for Him to supply others’ needs, forgive their sins, to make them more forgiving and help them in times of temptation. And it has the endorsement of Our Lord Himself!

True! I guess that always felt different… I’m not sure why; perhaps because it’s explicitly spelled out – with Our Lord’s endorsement, as you say! It seemed, I suppose, less explicit than “Please let So-and-so reconcile with the Church” or “Please let them find survivors of [whatever disaster].” But I definitely see your point!

Does it matter that He already knows your and their needs and what you’re going to ask for? No. Ask any person whether they can hear ‘I love you’ often enough, even if they know it’s going to be said.

Yes indeed. I don’t have much discomfort with more general intercessions; I think it’s just the bossiness of more specific ones that made me feel odd. but this is a point to ponder as well.

Thank you!

Francesca