Difficulty with certain Catholics

[Kevin12]

I think we need to realize that a lot of the traditionalists who are like this are what Tim Staples calls, “radical traditionalists”. While they are mostly sedevacantists or Sspx members, I think a minority do have these views while technically staying in union with the church. Pray for them. I think its sad that both sides pick at each other. Both sides need to realize we are one, holy Catholic, and apostolic church.

I think that most of the people I read the messages of on Fish Eaters were not SSPX or sede. I don’t know how they rationalize that, but there it is.

@Gliggle

Well, if so, pray that he we tell me he was wrong about only 5 in 33,000 getting to heaven. I think he was influenced by Jansenism as a young priest though, and he might have cooled down at some point. All I know is that that sermon of his had the opposite of its intended effect on me. It made me feel like, “Well, I guess getting into heaven is pretty much hopeless, so I’ll just enjoy my time here and hope Hell isn’t so bad.”

 

[agnes_therese]

I think that most of the people I read the messages of on Fish Eaters were not SSPX or sede. I don’t know how they rationalize that, but there it is.

@Gliggle

Well, if so, pray that he we tell me he was wrong about only 5 in 33,000 getting to heaven. I think he was influenced by Jansenism as a young priest though, and he might have cooled down at some point. All I know is that that sermon of his had the opposite of its intended effect on me. It made me feel like, “Well, I guess getting into heaven is pretty much hopeless, so I’ll just enjoy my time here and hope Hell isn’t so bad.”

Kevin,

Just remember that when the church canonizes someone, that means they led a holy life. It does NOT mean that every single word they said was infallibly correct.

 

[oldcatholicguy]

Paraphrasing our Holy Father; who are they to judge you?

Stating that he disagrees with some Catholics over their views and comments about other Catholics and that their actions are adversely affecting his faith is judging?

 

[oldcatholicguy]

There was a thread on CAF I was in where apparently a bunch of people from a site called Fish Eaters heard somehow was speaking of traditionalists in not entirely flattering terms, and they all came in to rant about how the NO is full of abuses - and one of them even considered not preaching about the evils of contraception and homosexuality in every Mass an abuse - and those who attend it are modernists. Then I found out they were, on the Fish Eaters forum, actively discussing the CAF thread and making fun of people, including me, who they called crazy since I had mentioned some of the difficulties I had faced from extremely traditional Catholics in the past in a way they thought was too emotional.

After that, I started browsing that forum regularly just to see what these people who had mocked me were like, and I was really shocked by the things I saw, and not just by the virulent antisemitism but the deep contempt these people seemed to have towards non-trads, to the extent that it seemed to be a common bragging point for them to not associate with any non-trads.

I know I should just ignore it, but somewhere it the back of my head I remember this thing I read there:
*
Traditional Catholics’ Motto

We are what you once were.
We believe what you once believed.
We worship as you once worshiped.
If you were right then, we are right now.
If we are wrong now, you were wrong then.*

I feel anxiety over this, but not in the way they intend. What I have seen in these people makes it clear to me they are wrong about a lot of things, but does that mean that the Church 100 years ago was wrong too?

CAF has the “ok” from the Church, has clearly enforced rules concerning being charitable and polite to other posters, and a user base that does a rather good job of policing itself in regards to good behavior and presenting mostly accurate information concerning our faith. Do yourself a favor and don’t visit sites that don’t bother to police their users’ behavior or bother to get the “ok” from the Church.

 

[Sirach2]

Kevin,

I have more to say with regard to your topic, but I will be late for mass, so I’ll get back to you later. Meanwhile, please read this post and this post, about St. Leonard and the 5,000 souls. It is an unproven, unsubstantiated report that was given by him second hand without any proof of its accuracy. Let your heart rest in the Mercy of God, who loves you.

 

[Gliggle]

I think that most of the people I read the messages of on Fish Eaters were not SSPX or sede. I don’t know how they rationalize that, but there it is.

@Gliggle

Well, if so, pray that he we tell me he was wrong about only 5 in 33,000 getting to heaven. I think he was influenced by Jansenism as a young priest though, and he might have cooled down at some point. All I know is that that sermon of his had the opposite of its intended effect on me. It made me feel like, “Well, I guess getting into heaven is pretty much hopeless, so I’ll just enjoy my time here and hope Hell isn’t so bad.”

Actually, I read that sermon as more of a statement how it doesn’t help anyone to believe that it is easy to avoid hell, and that such a belief is a danger. He was saying that we should all be terrified of hell, that it is a reality for each and every one of us and we are all gravely at risk. Take his point; If he had said “Only one of you will go to hell.” would you feel consoled? If he had said this, would you, as a sinner, go to confession and make every effort to stop sinning? Well, if not, in that scenario the one person who went to hell would be YOU. His point could not be more clear, and there is no one who needs to hear this sermon more than you, because you need to learn to be afraid of hell. You should be very afraid of saying the things you are saying about hoping hell isn’t so bad. What this sermon does tell us is that it is we who choose hell, it is our hearts that consign us there when we are unwilling to walk away from sin.

Also I will pray that St Leonard will tell you he was wrong about the numbers. Hopefully he will come to you and let you know soon! But God will only let him do that if it is helpful to your soul… and maybe you need to be a bit more frightened of hell right now than reassured.

 

[Sirach2]

… and maybe you need to be a bit more frightened of hell right now than reassured.

But not to the point of despairing of God’s mercy, which is just as damning a sin as presumption. I can see how dangerous this sermon can be for scrupulous persons who believe there is no chance for them to please God, and that everything they do is a sin of major proportions.

 

[Sirach2]

Kevin, I share your concerns about these people, for their posts demonstrate fruits are definitely not holy. The only cure is to stay away from those who do not edify your spirit, lest it be to your downfall spiritually.

This morning’s Divine Office gave some beautiful reflections from the prophet Tobias.
16. They shall be cursed that shall despise thee: and they shall be condemned that shall blaspheme thee:
and blessed shall they be that shall build thee up.
18. Blessed are all they that love thee, and that rejoice in thy peace.
As the website explains, he was not only speaking about the city, Jerusalem, but also about “spiritual” Jerusalem, God’s people. This verse has always been one of my favorites. The very next psalm 147 in today’s morning prayer teaches us:

He sends forth his word and it melts them:
at the breath of his mouth the waters flow.
He makes his word known to Jacob,
to Israel his laws and decrees.
He has not dealt thus with other nations.

Truly, the Holy Spirit’s words of inspiration are sweet, melting our hearts and filling us with life-giving waters that flow out from us like a river of life. God is not mocked, people will reap what they sow. Two of God’s winged creatures, wasps and bees, both feed on different food: wasps on garbage, bees on honey. If their spirits at FE are feeding on garbage, it will be evident in the lack of edification that they send forth to others. They will spout only garbage, mockery, and derision to their readers.

In short, do not feed there, but let God’s holy words be the source of your meditation, day and night, that you may be “built up.” Blessed are all they who shall minister God’s merciful goodness to you.

One last point. Today’s mass readings spoke only of the two great commandments that Jesus gave when the pharisees tried to trap Him. LOVE God, and LOVE thy neighbor. It is worth meditation on how to do both. God asks for our love, not our fear, and for our trust and hope in Him, not our despair.

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

I think there are plenty of good traditionalists, but if I was going to an EF Mass, I would go to one administered by a normal diocese rather with a trained priest rather than go to the FSSP. I have nothing against that group personally, but many of their members seem to still be very attached to most of Archbishop Lefebvre’s views in spite of their refusal to join him in disobedience, though this itself shows they have do have immense courage to not follow someone they so admired.

Perhaps you should go to an EF mass and see what the fuss is about. Maybe you could then understand what the trads are talking about and why they are frustrated about the current state of affairs.

Having been a part of an FSSP parish for several years, I have met several ex-SSPX people there, including the priest. It is true, Lefebvre is admired but also pitied. Most of these ex-SSPX members thought that he had a crisis of faith that led him to ordain bishops. They all thought he made a mistake by doing that. I have read some things by Lefebvre and I very much agree with them, although I also believe he made a stupid mistake. It is completely possible to be a traditionalist who agrees with Lefebvre and is loyal to the pope. My entire parish was like that.

I think that your feelings of frustration and anger are completely justified. But people often behave in undignified ways when they get angry about things that matter to them, and the internet makes this possible since there are no consequences that we would face in real life. Even I sometimes get really angry at such mad trads and wonder what kind of nutters these people are. That is why I stay away from certain blogs and forums, because I can’t stomach some of these comments.

No idea if my comment was of any use, but I just wanted to reassure you that we are not all Jew hating bigots who want to kick the pope. Or something along those lines. I really think that not many traditionalists are like that, it’s just unfortunate that they make their views known in this way and upset people.

 

[CatholicRaven]

I’d suggest staying away from the boards and the sites and books, etc. that are near occasions of sin for you, especially those that may tempt you to lose hope in God. It might be difficult at first, because Satan will tell you that you are missing out on something, that you need to know if people are talking about you and what they’re saying, etc. But the reality is, people will gossip and criticize and condemn because people are sinful–and remember that those with genuine self-confidence don’t need to tear others down to build themselves up. And besides, knowing what they are saying won’t help you and won’t change them. If you focus on your spiritual life, then eventually, their opinions won’t matter to you, because God knows who you are (and hopefully, so do you).

I know how you feel, though. I fell away from the Church years ago, mostly because I didn’t see very many Catholics actually practicing their faith outside of Mass. Some would walk out the doors of the church on Sunday morning and start gossiping right off! I saw Catholics criticizing and condemning others for splinters, while the accusers had logs in their eyes. I felt that if this was what Catholicism was, I didn’t want to be part of it.

Later in life, God drew me back to the Church, and helped me to learn that faith in Him does not mean that His people will be perfect–only that He is. He reminded me that there will always be those who think they know better than the Church (or even think they know better than God). The wheat will grow up with the tares, but God will sort it all out in His time. That’s not my job.

Another awesome thing I’ve learned is that you never know how people may change. I’ve seen some radical transformations in people’s hearts–some practically overnight, others more slowly, even over many years. There is hope in God, even for those who struggle with pride and self-righteousness.

Read more of the Bible, and less of the things that challenge truth. Stay close to the Sacraments, and pray often. Pray especially for those who think they have a special seat at the right hand of God just waiting for them–that means they have forgotten Jesus (or that they feel they are equal to Him), and that’s a sad, sorry state to be in. (I should know; I’ve been there.)

And don’t make the mistake of thinking that you (and/or your sins) are either too small for God to notice, or too big for His mercy!

Will for you!

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I place the blame on Poe Benedict XVI.

He helped to fuel the division between trads and regular Catholics by allowing the full use of the TLM in an attempt to appease the SSPX members. It failed, but many trads first say the move to allow the TLM the first step in making it the norm.

Pope John Paul II refused to divide the Church by giving into the extremest of either side.

Jim

 

[WildCatholic]

I place the blame on Poe Benedict XVI.

He helped to fuel the division between trads and regular Catholics by allowing the full use of the TLM in an attempt to appease the SSPX members. It failed, but many trads first say the move to allow the TLM the first step in making it the norm.

Pope John Paul II refused to divide the Church by giving into the extremest of either side.

Jim

I think your position is rather unfair towards Benedict XVI. I don’t think he intended to split the church, or make traditionalism the norm. Rather he realized that some members of the church wanted it, and having an appreciation for it, he let groups like the FSSP continue to grow and tried to amend things with the SSPX which didn’t work out.

Once again you are falling to an “us vs. them” argument when in all actuality, we should not add any adjectives to being Catholic. Some are more traditional yes, but we need to recognize we are one body in Christ under the guidance of Francis.

I feel like you are as bad as some of the trads you have mentioned. Rather than see one or the other mass as invalid, see them as different ways of expressing the same belief. No one thinks our Eastern brothers and sisters are incorrect, right?

 

[JimR-OCDS]

WildCatholic

I think your position is rather unfair towards Benedict XVI. I don’t think he intended to split the church, or make traditionalism the norm.

It wasn’t his intent, but was the end result. He had a poor sense of PR and in the first year of his papacy burned many of the bridges Pope John Paul II built.

Rather he realized that some members of the church wanted it, and having an appreciation for it, he let groups like the FSSP continue to grow and tried to amend things with the SSPX which didn’t work out.

Pope Benedict XVI allowed for full use of the TLM as a compromise with SSPX, Trads saw it as a step in making it the norm, even though the Pope himself said it would remain the extra-ordinary. However, the communication on the justification was poorly handled and it in fact caused greater divisions in the Church. I know people who travel for an hour or more away from the parish in their own neighborhood, to attend the TLM, because they see it as superior to the NO.

Once again you are falling to an “us vs. them” argument when in all actuality, we should not add any adjectives to being Catholic. Some are more traditional yes, but we need to recognize we are one body in Christ under the guidance of Francis.

According to some, many trads don’t like Pope Francis and have been trashing him since he washed the feet of females at the Easter Vigil Mass.

Jim

 

[kozlosap]

WildCatholic

It wasn’t his intent, but was the end result. He had a poor sense of PR and in the first year of his papacy burned many of the bridges Pope John Paul II built.

Pope Benedict XVI allowed for full use of the TLM as a compromise with SSPX, Trads saw it as a step in making it the norm, even though the Pope himself said it would remain the extra-ordinary. However, the communication on the justification was poorly handled and it in fact caused greater divisions in the Church. I know people who travel for an hour or more away from the parish in their own neighborhood, to attend the TLM, because they see it as superior to the NO.

According to some, many trads don’t like Pope Francis and have been trashing him since he washed the feet of females at the Easter Vigil Mass.

Jim

Thank you for so honestly expressing what several of my family members and myself have been feeling in the years since Blessed JPll died. When I see members here at CAF identify themselves as Latin Rite or EF Catholics or Traditionalist, it does make it appear that there is more than one HRCC. Pope Francis is stirring the proverbial pot when it comes to those who are more holy and know more about our faith than the Holy Father! When he washed the feet of those women, my heart sang that the Holy Spirit was busy in the Sistine Chapel on the day that the Holy Father was selected!!

 

[RKO]

there is an unspoken competition with MANY in the Church. I call it “I’m more Catholic than you.”
Unfortunately many of those become more catholic than the Pope.

 

[Joe_5859]

If the only place you encounter such points of view are online at certain websites, then simply stay away from those websites. If you feel tempted to “check in” and see what they’re talking about now, don’t.

I greatly appreciate that CAF would never allow for such threads where people gather together to make fun of people on other forums.

Curmudgeons are attracted to online forums like moths to a flame. If you feel yourself starting to wonder if they represent a large portion of the population, that’s a sure sign that you need to take a few steps back.

 

[3DOCTORS]

**from Matthew, Ch. 23:

1
1 Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to his disciples,
2
2 saying, "The scribes and the Pharisees have taken their seat on the chair of Moses.
3
Therefore, do and observe all things whatsoever they tell you, but do not follow their example. For they preach but they do not practice.
4
They tie up heavy burdens 3 (hard to carry) and lay them on people’s shoulders, but they will not lift a finger to move them.**

This Scripture came immediately to mind when reading this thread. I have only limited experience with the EF/OF conflict. I appreciate both Masses. The only time I would be upset would be at liturgical abuse. As long as the Mass is celebrated reverently why does it have to be eitiher/or? Why can’t a woman wear a mantilla to an OF Mass? Why do we have to pick on one another and evoke scrupulosity or antagonistic bickering? I don’t think this is what Our Blessed Lord would want to see . . . :nope:

 

[canis73]

Stating that he disagrees with some Catholics over their views and comments about other Catholics and that their actions are adversely affecting his faith is judging?

I got from his post that he was feeling judged by the other catholics. I apologize if I misunderstood it.

 

[oldcatholicguy]

WildCatholic

It wasn’t his intent, but was the end result. He had a poor sense of PR and in the first year of his papacy burned many of the bridges Pope John Paul II built.

Pope Benedict XVI allowed for full use of the TLM as a compromise with SSPX, Trads saw it as a step in making it the norm, even though the Pope himself said it would remain the extra-ordinary. However, the communication on the justification was poorly handled and it in fact caused greater divisions in the Church. I know people who travel for an hour or more away from the parish in their own neighborhood, to attend the TLM, because they see it as superior to the NO.

According to some, many trads don’t like Pope Francis and have been trashing him since he washed the feet of females at the Easter Vigil Mass.

Jim

I’ve never been to an EF Mass and I am confident that my spiritual needs would not be met by one. However, there are people who’s spiritual needs need the EF. You are doing the former Holy Father a disservice by implying that his actions were based on some sort of political move instead of being based on a shepherd looking out for his flock (in this case those who need the EF); and you are doing your fellow Catholics who need the EF a disservice by assuming their traveling an hour to Mass is based on pride (“because they see it as superior to the NO”) instead of a real spiritual need.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I’ve never been to an EF Mass and I am confident that my spiritual needs would not be met by one. However, there are people who’s spiritual needs need the EF. You are doing the former Holy Father a disservice by implying that his actions were based on some sort of political move instead of being based on a shepherd looking out for his flock (in this case those who need the EF); and you are doing your fellow Catholics who need the EF a disservice by assuming their traveling an hour to Mass is based on pride (“because they see it as superior to the NO”) instead of a real spiritual need.

The Pope allowing full use of the TLM, was in fact a compromise with SSPX, according to Cardinal Sean O’Malley who served on the commission who worked with the Pope on the issue.

Pope Benedict XVI had no political sense, which is why nuns were killed over his statement which inflamed Muslims and why non-Catholics were appalled by the release of the document on no salvation outside the Church. Of course it had to be explained, but that’s part of having political sense, or doing what the other Popes before him did, have his assistants review the statements he wants to go public with.

Pope Benedict XVI is a highly intelligent intellectual and brilliant minds like his are rarely tidy when it comes to public relations. But a Pope must deal with the public for he is a public figure. What he says matters and the Pope has to keep in mind, not everyone lives in a palace with guards to protect him when he says something that is inflammatory, regardless how true it is.

Jim