Difficulty with one of The Church's Teachings

[Hoosier_Daddy]

The incarnation was not merely a corrective measure, but primarily an act of love by the Father, so the Son would have been sent to dwell with man regardless of the human condition.

That is speculative at best but surely the need for a savior would not be there as the gates of heaven and immortality would have never needed correcting.
Where are you pulling this theology from?

 

[Usagi]

According to Church Doctrine, anyone who dies with an confessed mortal sin is automatically going to go to Hell.

Like others, I would correct this to “unrepented.” God is not going to play “gotcha” with someone’s fate and send a repentant person to Hell simply because he did not make it to the sacrament.

Regardless of how much control the person in question had over the situation (even if it was NO control)

Now, that is not Church teaching. Knowledge and consent are two of the elements (along with grave matter) that make a sin mortal.

or of how many good works the person did in his life. A man could have lead a godly life, being kind and charitable and heroic and loving in everyday life, but if he committed a single Mortal Sin then he will be dragged off to Hell when he dies. In other words, some people who do good deeds with good intentions receive NO reward for it.

That, on the other hand, is true. No one can walk up to God at the end of life and demand Heaven as just compensation for their good works. Judgment is not a matter of weighing up good vs. bad and assigning a destination based on which is greater. One unrepented mortal sin can indeed damn a seeming saint … and one act of faith in the last moments of life can save one who has done little or no good in this world.

Why is your hypothetical good person holding on so stubbornly to that one sin? Having responded well to God’s grace and grown in virtue throughout his life, it seems he would be likely to repent instantly of any failure. If he instead persists in unrepentance until death, then his judgment will have to take that fact into account.

This is further complicated by what The Church considers to be mortal sins. Not being a Catholic if you’ve heard of Catholicism (only 1.2 of the 7 billion humans on earth are Catholics, which means 6.8 billion humans are already doomed to eternal suffering),

Exactly what degree of knowledge of the true faith makes one culpable for remaining outside it is debated among theologians. The very strict interpretation that you mention is rare in my experience. More often I hear that people who have grown up hearing only bad things about Christianity/Catholicism, or who have been brought up to believe that another religion is the truth, don’t really know the truth in a way that would make them culpable for not being Catholic. The Catechism only says that one who knows that Catholicism is the truth (noy just knows that it exists), but refuses to join it or remain in it, cannot be saved. That would not apply to the vast majority of non-Catholics.

not going to every single mass (only 24% of Catholics even claim to attend every mass),

First, it’s clearly not every mass, since mass is offered at least daily in many places and the obligation attaches only to one mass on each Sunday and Holy Day.

Second, and more importantly, missing mass (even negligently or deliberately) is not an unforgivable sin. Catholics who have stubbornly stayed away from mass for years or decades because of some altercation in the past return to worship all the time, and the Church is glad to have them. It is grave matter, yes, which means that someone who does it knowingly and deliberately and persists in thinking that was awesome until death will go to Hell. But how many of us Catholic mass-missers meet those qualifications?

being an atheist or an agnostic (over 14% of all humans qualify, and God’s existence might not be as obvious to them as it is to us [it hits close to hoe for me, as one of my close relatives is an atheist]),

Again, the Church has not pronounced on who exactly is responsible for their unbelief. Contrary to your depiction, the Church does not paint God as vindictive and willing to convict on a technicality. She knows full well that God alone will judge, and God knows the heart, including every possible obstacle that stood in the way of a person’s coming to know Him. That’s why the Church declares saints but never the opposite – we can say “If this situation applies to a person at death, they will be damned,” but never “That guy was totally damned,” because we don’t know all the factors at work inside that person. You seem to take the Church’s warning against certain things as a declaration that everyone who has ever fallen to those temptations, whatever their situation, is damned. But that is not what the Church actually teaches.

Drug Usage (most drug users are addicts, meaning they can’t stop even if they wanted to [and many of them do wish very dearly that they could stop]), and prostitution (most prostitutes are forced into this job, either through sex-slavery or through the only alternative being “starve to death”).

Both of these cases would fall under lack of full consent of the will. The Church has this covered.

[cont,]

 

[Usagi]

To clarify why it bothers me, I should explain how I see Hell. Hell is the WORST punishment imaginable. Whenever I see someone on this forum say “so and so is dammed” or “so and so will go to Hell”, I internally visualize the person being talked about getting dragged kicking and screaming into a pit of fire and being tortured. NOTHING is worse than being in Hell, so I believe that only the worst of the worst really deserve it.

I completely agree with your characterization of Hell, as does Church teaching. Please do not imagine that the Church or the vast majority of individual Catholics take any pleasure in the thought of any human being damned. Knowing and talking about the roads that will lead to misery is not the same thing as condemning everyone who is on one of those roads.

I don’t like, any more than you do, to think of the “ordinary” non-Catholic, non-Christian, or unbeliever going to Hell. I’m not even fond of imagining it for the most monstrous of us. To me, though, the Catholic Church’s approach to sin and salvation is the best one I’ve seen. We are careful to condemn no specific individual (or we should be). We do not declare unequivocally that Hell is the only alternative to consciously knowing Jesus in this life, but leave room for the honestly ignorant, the seekers after truth, and those whose life experiences have soured them on our religion. We do indeed hold the line on various behaviors being bad and potentially damning, but we are forbidden to condemn or abandon the actual people doing those things, or even to declare them in Hell after death. Instead, we leave the judgment to our merciful God, who knows each person intimately and loves them more than any of us. We pray for the purification of the dead, and sometimes even pray “retroactively” that someone who appears to have died in mortal sin was led by God to a secret and final repentance. We expect to be surprised and delighted by the people we will find in Heaven. None of that is non-Catholic or even dissenting-Catholic thinking.

I am disagreeing with your points not because I am strict and eager to condemn others, but because I think you have somewhere picked up a wrong idea about the Church and her teachings, and that you are not straying on this issue as you seem to believe you are.

Usagi

 

[Neofight]

That is speculative at best but surely the need for a savior would not be there as the gates of heaven and immortality would have never needed correcting.
Where are you pulling this theology from?

It is classic Franciscan theology.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

It is classic Franciscan theology.

*sigh. Do you have some resources readers might use other than your say so? And are you sure you are making the distinction of a savior who sacrifices rather than just the incarnation. This thread is about hell and salvation and I think you might be off target with your addition.

 

[Trident_H]

Great post! Really great post! :clapping::clapping:

Thanks Jon. Thanks for that man.

 

[Neofight]

*sigh. Do you have some resources readers might use other than your say so? And are you sure you are making the distinction of a savior who sacrifices rather than just the incarnation. This thread is about hell and salvation and I think you might be off target with your addition.

It germane to the thread, as it expounds on the reason for the Incarnation. It doesn’t deny the justice of God, which includes Hell, it merely points out that reason for the Incarnation was not a second thought derived by God after man had fallen.

This theology dates to John Duns Scotus’s (late 13th century), “Doctrine of the Absolute Primacy of Christ in the Universe”, where he understands the Incarnation was planned by God as an act of love before the creation.

I’m glad you have an apparent desire to learn the beauty of a Franciscan theology. Although it differs from Dominican theology (i.e. St. Thomas Aquinas), the differing theologies are both very Catholic and not contradictory to Church teachings, but rather are complementary.

Peace and all good!

 

[MiserableSinner]

So if you’re a nice guy. And you let yourself get addicted to sinning. Well you’re going to have to deal with that for eternity. Because I think eternity is all about us knowing perfect truth. And perfect truth is going to demand that we watch the train wreck of our lives on HD surround. So that we can perfectly know exactly where each stray bullet we fired really went. How many people we really hurt. How many lives were hit by those ricochets. And once we face that reality. In a timeless place where there’s no undo button. Well we can only realize a hell or a heaven in that end space. We can only scream in agony or in joy. Because we’ve either made things better or we’ve made them worse. In a real way. In a permanent way.

-Trident

Hey brother (or sister?). I love you

First I would like to comment on your name. It is an interesting way of describing the Holy Trinity. However, I think it might be inaccurate. I would not feel comfortable using the analogy. Do you have anything from the Early Church Fathers or Saints that supports it? I don’t think the Church defines the Holy Trinity with that analogy. I just want to be sure or have a decent idea at the least that God approves of it before I go around using it.

Second, your description of our Judgments (there will be 2 btw. Did you know that the whole Universe will also see all of your good works and acts of Love in HD surround at the General Judgment? Not necessarily all your sins that have been absolved though, from what I understand). It is not true that our good deeds must outweigh the bad for us to go to Heaven. God has been known by the Saints to save the most hardened sinners at the moment of their death - because the Saints prayed and Sacrificed for the hardened sinner’s Salvation. They will not have many, if any, good works that were done in a state of grace (btw only good works done in a state of grace gain us merit). And they might be in Purgatory for a comparatively long time, only God knows how long. But their eternal souls are saved!

So - make sure to stay in a state of grace, go to weekly Confession if possible, and receive Holy Communion as often as possible (provided you truly believe it is Christ’s Body and Blood - DO NOT receive it if you do not or you will be guilty of His Body and Blood). You probably already know this, but make sure not to receive His Body and Blood if you have committed any grave sins since your last Holy Confession. Offer all of your suffering in unison with His Passion for the Salvation of souls.

God loves you. I love you.

I salute you
I salute your Guardian Angel (I love you Guardian Angel)

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

It germane to the thread, as it expounds on the reason for the Incarnation. It doesn’t deny the justice of God, which includes Hell, it merely points out that reason for the Incarnation was not a second thought derived by God after man had fallen.

This theology dates to John Duns Scotus’s (late 13th century), “Doctrine of the Absolute Primacy of Christ in the Universe”, where he understands the Incarnation was planned by God as an act of love before the creation.

I’m glad you have an apparent desire to learn the beauty of a Franciscan theology. Although it differs from Dominican theology (i.e. St. Thomas Aquinas), the differing theologies are both very Catholic and not contradictory to Church teachings, but rather are complementary.

Peace and all good!

I’ll ask once again can you cite this…?

 

[Neofight]

I’ll ask once again can you cite this…?

Certainly…you may have missed it…Doctrine of the Absolute Primacy of Christ in the Universe…a simple search of that phrase, or of Franciscan theology of the Incarnation, or Franciscan theology of Jon Duns Scots should give you everything you’re looking for.

 

[persevere71]

Born, I understand where you are coming from. Some thoughts:

1. There is a difference between what a) the Church teaches, and b) what the sin-crazed hyper-orthodox loons who make up a portion of the Church’s membership say the Church teaches. What gets regurgitated is often b), not a), particularly around this board.
2. The Church has never said that non-Catholics are denied heaven. Further, it has never even said authoritatively what exact actions constitute a “mortal sin.” I have repeatedly “gotten into it” with people on this board when they declare, for example, “missing mass is a mortal sin” or anything else is a mortal sin. Why? Because the Church doesn’t so state, and never has. I’ve often asked posters: Post a list of exactly what are the mortal sins. They rant, but they can’t do it. Why? Because there is a strong aspect of subjectivity about it, and because no such list exists.
3. At day’s end we are committed to God’s mercy. There’s a word you rarely see on this board: Mercy. Our God is infinitely merciful; I postulate that doesn’t sit well with some very hard-hearted people who post on this board and who see sin everywhere. Candidly, their theology is warped. It’s that simple. Why? Because to them there seems no concept of “God understands you tried your best” or any gray areas, merely black and white.
4. Along the same lines, many folks don’t seem able to comprehend: Morality is complex. We live in a world where the police lie to suspects to induce confessions; where spies lie and steal foreign data to keep us safe from terrorism or foreign powers; where rough men stand ready to do violence to others to keep us safe also, and the like. Many folks just can’t handle this - and ought not go into police work! (I wonder how some of them function daily). They can’t handle that maybe some Jews and Protestants are in heaven.
5. A wise man I know said something to me years ago that I think sums up heaven: He told me “God has a place in His kingdom for all those with a sincere desire to know him and to follow him.” If any disagree with that, that’s on them.

Finally!! Positivity!

Hope it helps.

 

[Trident_H]

Hey brother (or sister?). I love you

Wow. Thank you for that. I mean it. And I love you too. Count me as your brother in this.

First I would like to comment on your name. It is an interesting way of describing the Holy Trinity. However, I think it might be inaccurate. I would not feel comfortable using the analogy. Do you have anything from the Early Church Fathers or Saints that supports it? I don’t think the Church defines the Holy Trinity with that analogy. I just want to be sure or have a decent idea at the least that God approves of it before I go around using it.

Here’s the deal about my name. And I mean it’s a deal only to me. But a big one.

When I was first trying to get out of the mess I was in. When I was first starting to put my will to that. I was staring up at the wall. From the floor. Where I was lying. I was watching the light shine in from outside. It was sort of like a bolt of lightning. And I got the idea that I could use that. Sort of like a spear. And then I got a thought that suddenly filled me with peace. It was of a golden trident. And I was told pretty clearly what it was. It was the weaponized version of the trinity. And that I could use it to fight my inner darkness. That I could just grab hold of it. And purge my demons with it.

So that’s what it’s for. And that’s how I’ve been using it. I don’t know what else I can say about it.

Second, your description of our Judgments (there will be 2 btw. Did you know that the whole Universe will also see all of your good works and acts of Love in HD surround at the General Judgment? Not necessarily all your sins that have been absolved though, from what I understand). It is not true that our good deeds must outweigh the bad for us to go to Heaven. God has been known by the Saints to save the most hardened sinners at the moment of their death - because the Saints prayed and Sacrificed for the hardened sinner’s Salvation. They will not have many, if any, good works that were done in a state of grace (btw only good works done in a state of grace gain us merit). And they might be in Purgatory for a comparatively long time, only God knows how long. But their eternal souls are saved!

Yeah. Well those are good points too. And I mean I’m not really sure how all of the rest fits in. Like deathbed absolutions and the whole bit. But I’m sure a case could be made that doing things like that boosts you up in the spiritual plane. In the battle we fight we know it’s more than just physical and physical outcomes. So maybe you’d get treated to the spiritual view of the positive ripples you’ve made just by coming around in the end. I don’t know.

So - make sure to stay in a state of grace, go to weekly Confession if possible, and receive Holy Communion as often as possible (provided you truly believe it is Christ’s Body and Blood - DO NOT receive it if you do not or you will be guilty of His Body and Blood). You probably already know this, but make sure not to receive His Body and Blood if you have committed any grave sins since your last Holy Confession. Offer all of your suffering in unison with His Passion for the Salvation of souls.

God loves you. I love you.

I salute you
I salute your Guardian Angel (I love you Guardian Angel)

And I give you a nod in return. And a spiritual embrace. And I’m thinking our Guardian Angels are high-fiving.

Or something.

Peace MiserableSinner. I think you’re an ace.

-Trident

 

[CrossofChrist]

I’ll ask once again can you cite this…?

It’s (traditionally) the commonly held opinion of Franciscans.The Dominicans represent the side that Christ would only have become man because of sin. St. Augustine also held that opinion. Traditionally the Jesuits are often somewhere in between the Franciscans and the Dominicans/Augustinians…For instance, IIRC Suarez held that God willed to become man from all eternity, yet simultaneously would’ve only become man had man sinned (hard to wrap you head around that one!). Again IIRC the Jesuit Rahner and Jesuit trained von Balthasar had similar ideas. Pretty sure St. Francis de Sales sided nearer to the Franciscans, too.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Certainly…you may have missed it…Doctrine of the Absolute Primacy of Christ in the Universe…a simple search of that phrase, or of Franciscan theology of the Incarnation, or Franciscan theology of Jon Duns Scots should give you everything you’re looking for.

It is about as far from this thread as you can get because this thread deals with heaven hell redemption salvation and sin.

So I started a new thread where you may discuss this

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=13494630#post13494630

 

[thistle]

I am a Catholic; I was baptized, I go to Church, I pray to God, I try to do right by others, and I believe that The Papacy was created by Jesus when he handed Saint Peter the keys to Heaven and Earth.

However, I disagree with some of The Church’s Teachings (specifically, the idea that Good People go to Hell).

It is not I am rebellious or that I like being difficult, nor is it because I dislike The Church or have any ill will in my heart for God, and it is certainly not out of any other form of malice. I disagree with this idea because it is downright terrifying and goes against the idea of God being just, merciful, just/fair, or even good. If you think I am thinking or doing something wrong, then bare in mind I am not choosing what bothers me.

I’m not sure I would call this a crisis of faith (I still believe in God and The Catholic Church no matter what), but it is a difficulty.

According to Church Doctrine, anyone who dies with an confessed mortal sin is automatically going to go to Hell. Regardless of how much control the person in question had over the situation (even if it was NO control) or of how many good works the person did in his life. A man could have lead a godly life, being kind and charitable and heroic and loving in everyday life, but if he committed a single Mortal Sin then he will be dragged off to Hell when he dies. In other words, some people who do good deeds with good intentions receive NO reward for it.

This is further complicated by what The Church considers to be mortal sins. Not being a Catholic if you’ve heard of Catholicism (only 1.2 of the 7 billion humans on earth are Catholics, which means 6.8 billion humans are already doomed to eternal suffering), not going to every single mass (only 24% of Catholics even claim to attend every mass), being an atheist or an agnostic (over 14% of all humans qualify, and God’s existence might not be as obvious to them as it is to us [it hits close to hoe for me, as one of my close relatives is an atheist]), Drug Usage (most drug users are addicts, meaning they can’t stop even if they wanted to [and many of them do wish very dearly that they could stop]), and prostitution (most prostitutes are forced into this job, either through sex-slavery or through the only alternative being “starve to death”).

To clarify why it bothers me, I should explain how I see Hell. Hell is the WORST punishment imaginable. Whenever I see someone on this forum say “so and so is dammed” or “so and so will go to Hell”, I internally visualize the person being talked about getting dragged kicking and screaming into a pit of fire and being tortured. NOTHING is worse than being in Hell, so I believe that only the worst of the worst really deserve it.

I’m forced to either believe that God never lets good people go to Hell and that good works can be enough if done with good intentions, or that God is vindictive and angry (instead of merciful and loving).

If you have an explanation for how God can be loving while having a system by which even one good person goes to Hell (let 6 out of every 7 humans alive today), please try to be patient in explaining it to me.

If you too are having a struggle with this or other aspects or teachings of The Church, feel free to share as well. Everyone has questions and difficulties at one point or another, so it does not mean something is wrong with you. This thread is supposed to be a safe place.

You had another thread on this same topic and when I called you out for speaking out against this specific Church teaching and asked if you accepted it or not you said you did and you got all indignant at the suggestion you might not. So now you admit you reject the infallible Church teaching that anyone who dies in a state of mortal sin goes immediately to Hell?

If you accept that the Catholic Church is the true Church established by Christ then you know that what the Church teaches in matters of faith and morals is correct and anyone who rejects a teaching is wrong.

 

[BornInMarch]

You had another thread on this same topic and when I called you out for speaking out against this specific Church teaching and asked if you accepted it or not you said you did and you got all indignant at the suggestion you might not. So now you admit you reject the infallible Church teaching that anyone who dies in a state of mortal sin goes immediately to Hell?

If you accept that the Catholic Church is the true Church established by Christ then you know that what the Church teaches in matters of faith and morals is correct and anyone who rejects a teaching is wrong.

Did you read my whole post, or did you just read that line and decide to jump to a response?

If you had read the whole post, you would have seen the following line right below the sentence that you bolded and underlined.

“It is not I am rebellious or that I like being difficult, nor is it because I dislike The Church or have any ill will in my heart for God, and it is certainly not out of any other form of malice. I disagree with this idea because it is downright terrifying and goes against the idea of God being just, merciful, just/fair, or even good. If you think I am thinking or doing something wrong, then bare in mind I am not choosing what bothers me.”

I know what the church teaches (or I think I know [many on this thread have suggested that I might have the wrong idea about what the church teaches]), but that doesn’t make this particular teaching less terrifying.

“You’re wrong, stop being wrong!” Does nothing to help me figure out the dilemma I am in.

 

[BornInMarch]

Everyone else, I would like to thank you all for being helpful and understanding. You’ve all made me feel better about things, for which I am immensely thankful.

PolarGuy, your reply stood out to me most. Very well said.

Born, I understand where you are coming from. Some thoughts:

1. There is a difference between what a) the Church teaches, and b) what the sin-crazed hyper-orthodox loons who make up a portion of the Church’s membership say the Church teaches. What gets regurgitated is often b), not a), particularly around this board.
2. The Church has never said that non-Catholics are denied heaven. Further, it has never even said authoritatively what exact actions constitute a “mortal sin.” I have repeatedly “gotten into it” with people on this board when they declare, for example, “missing mass is a mortal sin” or anything else is a mortal sin. Why? Because the Church doesn’t so state, and never has. I’ve often asked posters: Post a list of exactly what are the mortal sins. They rant, but they can’t do it. Why? Because there is a strong aspect of subjectivity about it, and because no such list exists.
3. At day’s end we are committed to God’s mercy. There’s a word you rarely see on this board: Mercy. Our God is infinitely merciful; I postulate that doesn’t sit well with some very hard-hearted people who post on this board and who see sin everywhere. Candidly, their theology is warped. It’s that simple. Why? Because to them there seems no concept of “God understands you tried your best” or any gray areas, merely black and white.
4. Along the same lines, many folks don’t seem able to comprehend: Morality is complex. We live in a world where the police lie to suspects to induce confessions; where spies lie and steal foreign data to keep us safe from terrorism or foreign powers; where rough men stand ready to do violence to others to keep us safe also, and the like. Many folks just can’t handle this - and ought not go into police work! (I wonder how some of them function daily). They can’t handle that maybe some Jews and Protestants are in heaven.
5. A wise man I know said something to me years ago that I think sums up heaven: He told me “God has a place in His kingdom for all those with a sincere desire to know him and to follow him.” If any disagree with that, that’s on them.

Hope it helps.

 

[In_His_Grace]

Everyone else, I would like to thank you all for being helpful and understanding. You’ve all made me feel better about things, for which I am immensely thankful.

PolarGuy, your reply stood out to me most. Very well said.

I completely agree BornInMarch. I absolutely loved PolarGuy’s post and most especially his “wise man” quote…

“God has a place in His kingdom for all those with a sincere desire to know him and to follow him.”

Born, I understand where you are coming from. Some thoughts:

1. There is a difference between what a) the Church teaches, and b) what the sin-crazed hyper-orthodox loons who make up a portion of the Church’s membership say the Church teaches. What gets regurgitated is often b), not a), particularly around this board.
2. The Church has never said that non-Catholics are denied heaven. Further, it has never even said authoritatively what exact actions constitute a “mortal sin.” I have repeatedly “gotten into it” with people on this board when they declare, for example, “missing mass is a mortal sin” or anything else is a mortal sin. Why? Because the Church doesn’t so state, and never has. I’ve often asked posters: Post a list of exactly what are the mortal sins. They rant, but they can’t do it. Why? Because there is a strong aspect of subjectivity about it, and because no such list exists.
3. At day’s end we are committed to God’s mercy. There’s a word you rarely see on this board: Mercy. Our God is infinitely merciful; I postulate that doesn’t sit well with some very hard-hearted people who post on this board and who see sin everywhere. Candidly, their theology is warped. It’s that simple. Why? Because to them there seems no concept of “God understands you tried your best” or any gray areas, merely black and white.
4. Along the same lines, many folks don’t seem able to comprehend: Morality is complex. We live in a world where the police lie to suspects to induce confessions; where spies lie and steal foreign data to keep us safe from terrorism or foreign powers; where rough men stand ready to do violence to others to keep us safe also, and the like. Many folks just can’t handle this - and ought not go into police work! (I wonder how some of them function daily). They can’t handle that maybe some Jews and Protestants are in heaven.
5. A wise man I know said something to me years ago that I think sums up heaven: He told me “God has a place in His kingdom for all those with a sincere desire to know him and to follow him.” If any disagree with that, that’s on them.

Hope it helps.

 

[PolarGuy]

Thanks folks! The wise man was my father, God rest his soul, a very understanding man who sacrificed a lot for me growing up.

A pretty nice Jewish guy I knew asked me once if I personally believed he would go to hell simply because he was not Christian. I quoted my dad (but omitted identifying the source!) He was absolutely floored and said he’d never expected that kind of depth from me.

 

[In_His_Grace]

Thanks folks! The wise man was my father, God rest his soul, a very understanding man who sacrificed a lot for me growing up.

A pretty nice Jewish guy I knew asked me once if I personally believed he would go to hell simply because he was not Christian. I quoted my dad (but omitted identifying the source!) He was absolutely floored and said he’d never expected that kind of depth from me.

Your dad was a very wise man indeed and must have been a wonderful father, such a blessing from God for you. God rest his soul. Was your dad Catholic?