Diffusing Rants

[Joysong]

It is no small secret to our readers that there is a lot of contentious animosity directed toward our clergy and the liturgy.

I am posting an excerpt from The Spiritual Exercises of St. Ignatius Loyola, together with a link to the rest of the document. The website does not have the beautiful translation in my book authored by Lewis Delmage, SJ, so I’m reprinting it rather than use the one in the link.

The Spirit of St.Ignatius, truly animated by the Holy Spirit, is speaking in the hearts of many who are disturbed by the rancor that is rampant and infecting the faithful like a cancer. I pray that we take his holy words seriously and begin in our own small circles and families to be role models who speak out and show a love for the Holy Spirit’s Bride, Holy Mother Church.

****GUIDELINES FOR AN AUTHENTICALLY CATHOLIC ******MENTALITY AND ATTITUDE **

---

**362. With regard to past or present ecclesiastical or secular superiors, be on the alert to praise whatever is good in their directives, instructions, traditions, style of operation, and personal behavior. Even though their conduct be not absolutely impeccable, nothing is gained by attacking them either in the public forum or in private. For such attacks on them do more harm than good; they only shock people rather than do anything useful to help the situation. For the outcome of such attacks is general exasperation, spiteful disparagement, and name-calling directed against secular and religious leaders. **

---

Therefore, we should abstain from all personal invective and, rather, put the following principle into practice. Just as truly as it does harm to rant against our leaders behind their backs and cut up their reputations, so it is worth taking the trouble to present the case in private to those who are able to take remedial action at will.

ccel.org/ccel/ignatius/exercises.xix.v.html

 

[netmilsmom]

Personally, I will go with the lead of Mother Angelica or St. Catherine of Siena who was taken with devotion to the Pope but was not hesitant in being critical of his actions…

“Catherine supported the true Pope Urban VI against his opponents; but he was a somewhat graceless man, and her letters to him never hesitated to reprove the pope for this fault, while remaining entirely loyal to him.”

We can love our fellow Catholics while showing a distain for their actions.
It is as I stated before in another thread, when one of my children do something wrong I always love them.
My five-year-old asks, “Do you hate me?”
And I say, “Of course not! I love you, but I hate the way you acted.”

 

[Elzee]

Good post. It gives us a lot to think about to keep ourselves in check and to not let things ‘get personal’.

I think we always need to mindful that there is a difference between attacking our clergy personally and questioning them when they are not following or preaching the teachings of the Church - which they are obligated to do to bring souls to Christ and to help maintain the deposit of faith Christ has entrusted to His Church. It must be done with the right spirit and at the right time and place, but if a priest is teaching his congregation that there is no hell, homosexual behavior and marriage should be allowed, and that women should be ordained, we have a responsibility as members of the Body of Christ and the Church Militant to question him on this - again, at the right time and place and in an appropriate manner. To not do so would be shirking our responsibility as Christians, and, depending on the situation, I believe could be a sin of omission. Our clergy are human too - they give in to pressure from their parishes at times. Sometimes a note from someone asking for an orthodox teaching or liturgy may be all they need to help them face that pressure.

 

[Joysong]

Dear Net,

I agree with you in part. But this is what caught my eye in St. Ignatius’s Guideline:

Just as truly as it does harm to rant against our leaders behind their backs and cut up their reputations, so it is worth taking the trouble to present the case in private to those who are able to take remedial action at will.

Very often people simply vent trying to get a few supporters for their opinion, and this, I believe, is what St. Ignatius wanted to dispel, and point them to those who have the authority to remedy it. We have Jesus’s own words to that effect, and I know you are familiar with them. 1) Go in private, 2) then take someone with you, 3) then go to the Church if these fail.

There is nothing so beautiful as coming to our Catholic Forum and finding a great number of people who love the Church and speak highly of all that is edifying. As the folks in the early church exclaimed, “See how they love one another?!!”

Do you not consider that noncatholics who log on here and see disunity and dissatisfaction among us, that they will have ammunition to say, “Look at those hypocrites, heretics, schismatics! Aren’t we glad for the Reformation!” ?

You have seen me post that it is good to correct, and I have done so myself . . . and it is good to question, and I have also done that. But what is not good is to rant and disparage the church or her leaders just to get something off our chest. Do you see the difference?

Thanks for your comments.
Carole

 

[Joysong]

Hello, Elzee,

It must be done with the right spirit and at the right time and place, but if a priest is teaching his congregation that there is no hell, homosexual behavior and marriage should be allowed, and that women should be ordained, we have a responsibility as members of the Body of Christ and the Church Militant to question him on this.

Absolutely! And it is also appropriate to ask discreetly on the forum for help from the Apologists or trusted servants of Christ who post here.

But I take exception to examples of: Wow, you should hear/see what Father So-and-so did last week! What a scoundrel! Our priests (plural) are hateful! What do you guys think?

And then the beat goes on with all kinds of gossip. Bad news worthy of the confessional, IMO.

So nice to chat with you, Elzee - you are devoted to your faith, I see.

Carole

 

[Elzee]

Joysong:

Dear Net,

I agree with you in part. But this is what caught my eye in St. Ignatius’s Guideline:

Just as truly as it does harm to rant against our leaders behind their backs and cut up their reputations, so it is worth taking the trouble to present the case in private to those who are able to take remedial action at will.

Very often people simply vent trying to get a few supporters for their opinion, and this, I believe, is what St. Ignatius wanted to dispel, and point them to those who have the authority to remedy it. We have Jesus’s own words to that effect, and I know you are familiar with them. 1) Go in private, 2) then take someone with you, 3) then go to the Church if these fail.

There is nothing so beautiful as coming to our Catholic Forum and finding a great number of people who love the Church and speak highly of all that is edifying. As the folks in the early church exclaimed, “See how they love one another?!!”

Do you not consider that noncatholics who log on here and see disunity and dissatisfaction among us, that they will have ammunition to say, “Look at those hypocrites, heretics, schismatics! Aren’t we glad for the Reformation!” ?

You have seen me post that it is good to correct, and I have done so myself . . . and it is good to question, and I have also done that. But what is not good is to rant and disparage the church or her leaders just to get something off our chest. Do you see the difference?

Thanks for your comments.
Carole

Yes, there’s a difference. I tried to convey that in my post when I said it must be done in the right spirit, and the right time and place.

It troubles me also that both Catholics and non-Catholics who log on to this forum see the disagreements and disunity. I pray the Church will one day not be such a dysfunctional family. It started with Adam and Eve and we still don’t have it down yet. Some of it is due to personal opinion. Most of it, I think, is due to a genuine concern there are religious and lay ministers in our Church who pick, alter, and choose what they will teach and believe. I’m sure most of us want to help bring unity back to Catholicism by bringing people in union with Rome. We’re human - sometimes we rant and we shouldn’t - but sometimes we need to be a bit bolder and aren’t.

I heard a reporter on Fox ask a priest shortly after the death of John Paul II (I’m paraphrasing as best I can here) ‘what do you think John Paul would call the people who call themselves Catholic, but do not adhere to the teachings of the Church?’ The priest answered: “I think he would say they are all Catholics, just at different places on the road to conversion.” Unfortunately, the road is not always an easy one, and despite our best efforts, it is many times public highway, not a secluded country road.

On the flip-side, however, I think these forums also show Catholics and non-Catholics that despite our disagreements, we all love God and his Church, and that the Eucharist is the center of our lives as Catholics. It also tells them that there ARE Catholics who whole-heartedly accept and believe in the Church Jesus founded, respect its authority, have a tremendous zeal for Jesus, and take the call to evangelism seriously. I think that is extremely important for our Protestant brothers and sisters to realize, especially given all the mis-conceptions there are out there about Catholicism and the media’s focus on ‘cafeteria Catholicism’ and the ‘decline of the Church’ in America.

Hope this helps. Thanks for a thought-provoking post.

 

[Elzee]

Joysong:

.

So nice to chat with you, Elzee - you are devoted to your faith, I see.

Carole

The same to you, on both counts! :tiphat:

God bless!

 

[the_phoenix]

Right after the deaths of Terri Schiavo and Pope John Paul II, and before the election of Pope Benedict XVI, the priest at my parish said something in a homily which led me to point out after Mass what the Church actually teaches.

The priest started out by commenting on how bad it makes us feel if we run over a squirrel by accident. From there, he made an astonishing leap to the statement that “Terri Schiavo’s situation leaves us in a quandary about what to do in such cases.”

On hearing this, I felt that in good conscience I could not leave the church premises without stating, calmly and quietly but very much in public, what the Catholic Church’s stand actually is.

So as the priest stood shaking hands just outside the church door after Mass, I uttered three simple sentences to him: “The Vatican being pro-life has taken the position of defending Terri Schiavo’s right to life. Pope John Paul II clearly stated that Terri should continue to be provided with nutrition and hydration through a feeding tube. There is no quandary.”

It was all the priest could do to smile and nod nervously while saying shortly, "Yes … yes … yes … " to acknowledge the truth of my … er, the Catholic Church’s … statements.

It should be noted that I also publicly praise and thank a priest whenever possible on hearing a good sermon. I’ve just registered at a new parish yesterday, and am looking forward to hearing many orthodox sermons in line with the Pope, and to giving out many compliments.

~~ the phoenix

 

[netmilsmom]

Joysong:

Dear Net,

I agree with you in part. But this is what caught my eye in St. Ignatius’s Guideline:

Just as truly as it does harm to rant against our leaders behind their backs and cut up their reputations, so it is worth taking the trouble to present the case in private to those who are able to take remedial action at will.

Very often people simply vent trying to get a few supporters for their opinion, and this, I believe, is what St. Ignatius wanted to dispel, and point them to those who have the authority to remedy it. We have Jesus’s own words to that effect, and I know you are familiar with them. 1) Go in private, 2) then take someone with you, 3) then go to the Church if these fail.

There is nothing so beautiful as coming to our Catholic Forum and finding a great number of people who love the Church and speak highly of all that is edifying. As the folks in the early church exclaimed, “See how they love one another?!!”

Do you not consider that noncatholics who log on here and see disunity and dissatisfaction among us, that they will have ammunition to say, “Look at those hypocrites, heretics, schismatics! Aren’t we glad for the Reformation!” ?

You have seen me post that it is good to correct, and I have done so myself . . . and it is good to question, and I have also done that. But what is not good is to rant and disparage the church or her leaders just to get something off our chest. Do you see the difference?

Thanks for your comments.
Carole

My husband is one of these non-Catholics. He likes to see us working things out. He knows that in his church, when people were dissatisfied, they broke apart. Two seperate churches started. One of the things that enamors him is that we can work it out.

He feels, as do I, that these forums are for exactly what you speak against. Venting and seeing if we are wrong in our thoughts. I might state where I am from, but you do not have to. You can complain about your parish, your diocese or your Bishop without ever naming names. In fact that is against the rules in most cases.

Those who hold in anger, end up with heart attacks and stress related illnesses. Better to do it here than in the parish. And who is to say that we haven’t already tried what St. Ignatius spoke of? I know I did and many people here has told stories of going to the parish councils, priests, DREs and Liturgical Comittees to no avail. If someone complains here, maybe it is just the last avenue one has.

As I stated, Mother Angelica and St. Catherine of Siena. I will take their lead.

 

[Joysong]

Hi Net,

He feels, as do I, that these forums are for exactly what you speak against. Venting and seeing if we are wrong in our thoughts.

Where did I say that? Did you miss this?

You have seen me post that it is good to correct, and I have done so myself . . . and it is good to question, and I have also done that. But what is not good is to rant and disparage the church or her leaders just to get something off our chest.

Wouldn’t you agree that “venting and seeing if we are wrong in our thoughts” would fall under the category of “good to question?”

I realize, Net, that my thoughts do not reach you very clearly at times, and I don’t know how to be any more precise. But you do know that I am not in favor of lengthly arguments over them, so I will concede and allow your own understanding of them to prevail for now.

Carole

 

[Chris_Jacobsen]

When people walk into a Catholic church, they have every right to expect a Mass in a Catholic rite, and a priest who teaches what the Catholic Church teaches.

When the pope and bishops care enough to enforce the laws of the Church and care enough to root out heresy, the ranting will stop.

 

[Joysong]

Dear Chris,

When the pope and bishops care enough to enforce the laws of the Church and care enough to root out heresy, the ranting will stop.

And who decides that they do NOT care enough? Or that something is heresy? Private interpretation was the root of the Reformation, and puts a person on dangerous footing.

Maybe you missed these points in the OP’s link:

First Rule. The first: All judgment laid aside, we ought to have our mind ready and prompt to obey, in all, the true Spouse of Christ our Lord, which is our holy Mother the Church Hierarchical.

Ninth Rule. Finally, to praise all precepts of the Church, keeping the mind prompt to find reasons in their defence and in no manner against them.

Thirteenth Rule. To be right in everything, we ought always to hold that the white which I see, is black, if the Hierarchical Church so decides it, believing that between Christ our Lord, the Bridegroom, and the Church, His Bride, there is the same Spirit which governs and directs us for the salvation of our souls. Because by the same Spirit and our Lord Who gave the ten Commandments, our holy Mother the Church is directed and governed.

I’m sorry you don’t see it this way.

Carole

 

[netmilsmom]

Joysong:

" He feels, as do I, that these forums are for exactly what you speak against. Venting and seeing if we are wrong in our thoughts."

Where did I say that? Did you miss this?

Wouldn’t you agree that “venting and seeing if we are wrong in our thoughts” would fall under the category of “good to question?”

I realize, Net, that my thoughts do not reach you very clearly at times, and I don’t know how to be any more precise. But you do know that I am not in favor of lengthly arguments over them, so I will concede and allow your own understanding of them to prevail for now.

Your thoughts never reach me. We can only read and didn’t realize that ESP was needed for these boards.
I’m sorry Carol but perhaps you should question what exactly you are saying without meaning it.
If you think it is “good to question” and approve of it, then what exactly are you saying that people are doing that each would need the words you are quoting?
I come here to get my ideas validated or corrected. What are you here for?

I think also you missed the point. My husband IS the Protestant reading the boards. He is who you are speaking about but does not see things the way you do. He sees us all coming together in the end, to celebrate, Holy Mass. Do you?

 

[asquared]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

Personally, I will go with the lead of Mother Angelica or St. Catherine of Siena who was taken with devotion to the Pope but was not hesitant in being critical of his actions…

“Catherine supported the true Pope Urban VI against his opponents; but he was a somewhat graceless man, and her letters to him never hesitated to reprove the pope for this fault, while remaining entirely loyal to him.”

Note that Catherine made her comments in letters to the Pope himself, not in the media, on the internet, to her family, fellow parishioners, members of her altar and rosary society or small faith community, or anyone else who would listen to her.

 

[netmilsmom]

Joysong:

I realize, Net, that my thoughts do not reach you very clearly at times, and I don’t know how to be any more precise. But you do know that I am not in favor of lengthly arguments over them, so I will concede and allow your own understanding of them to prevail for now.

Carole

I was uncomfortable with your above post so I asked my hubby to read it. He told me this…

Here is an example of a sugar coated insult that she (Joysong) may or may not have intended.
“I realize, Net, that my thoughts do not reach you very clearly at times, and I don’t know how to be any more precise.”

She (Joysong) did not say, “Perhaps I did not make myself clear enough…” or “Maybe I am not stating this clearly…” but rather how you (Netmil(name removed by moderator)) personally cannot understand. Stating in the end that she (Joysong) will concede is just stating that you (NMM) are too stupid to understand anyway.

People sometimes don’t understand how insulting one is because they are being patronizingly nice.

Thanks Netmilsdad for pointing this out!!!

 

[netmilsmom]

asquared:

Note that Catherine made her comments in letters to the Pope himself, not in the media, on the internet, to her family, fellow parishioners, members of her altar and rosary society or small faith community, or anyone else who would listen to her.

I’m not really sure the majority of your examples can be used at that time but I get your point. If someone here is identifying a priest or Bishop by name, that is wrong.

Mother Angelica on the other hand, had the entire world to talk to, God Bless her!!!

 

[paramedicgirl]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

Your thoughts never reach me. We can only read and didn’t realize that ESP was needed for these boards.
I’m sorry Carol but perhaps you should question what exactly you are saying without meaning it.
If you think it is “good to question” and approve of it, then what exactly are you saying that people are doing that each would need the words you are quoting?
I come here to get my ideas validated or corrected. What are you here for?

I think also you missed the point. My husband IS the Protestant reading the boards. He is who you are speaking about but does not see things the way you do. He sees us all coming together in the end, to celebrate, Holy Mass. Do you?

You and I are on the same page. That is also what I seek from these forums with the added bonus of sharing conversation about our beautiful Catholic faith.

 

[netmilsmom]

paramedicgirl:

You and I are on the same page. That is also what I seek from these forums with the added bonus of sharing conversation about our beautiful Catholic faith.

Amen!
I don’t see anyone as the enemy here. Some are misguided and some are rationalizing but when we spiritually come together with Our Lord, it is beautiful!

 

[paramedicgirl]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

Amen!

I don’t see anyone as the enemy here. Some are misguided and some are rationalizing but when we spiritually come together with Our Lord, it is beautiful!

I also don’t see any contentious animosity either, as the OP stated in the first post. The mods take care of that!

 

[Joysong]

Net,

You did not answer my question:

He feels, as do I, that these forums are for exactly what you speak against. Venting and seeing if we are wrong in our thoughts.

http://forum.catholic.com/images/smilies/confused.gif Where did I say that?

I don’t squabble on Sunday … Let’s try tomorrow.

Meanwhile, ponder if you will, that over all, I am not the first poster who has had their words misread by you, so I concluded and said that I have no idea how to be more precise, for in the end, you come up with statements like the one above that I never said. Puzzling! I give up. I don’t have the skills to be any clearer than I was. So I let it go with my concession. Now are you really glad that we are becoming ill at ease here? This is serious thread drift and uncalled for other than in a P.M.