Digital realistic pipe organ vs guitars (kumbaya stuff)

[Cat]

It’s never too late to start!

Oh, I don’t know, triumphguy. I have to play in an organ workshop tonight eek, and right about now (5:30 a.m. our time), I’m desperately trying to figure out a way to get sick so that I won’t be able to do it.

What reeks is that the workshop is on Veteran’s Day (God bless all vets!), and that means that ALL the churches are closed, and I can’t get into any church to practice. So I’ll be doing this cold tonight–a recipe for disaster, especially with pedals.

:banghead: Oh, I’m in despair. Maybe if I go eat a whole bag of Fritos, I’ll make my stomach hurt and be unable to play…

I started learning the pipe organ last year at age 54. I’m an excellent pianist and accompanist, so at least I know the keyboard.

A year later, I can kind of play three hymns–woo hoo. THis instrument is darned difficult! I get sooooo irritated when I see posts on CAF from people who say, “They had a perfectly good organ, but no one was playing it! Instead, some lady was playing the piano–why didn’t she play the organ?”

Hey, why don’t we all just stop being overweight today?! Or why don’t we all just get a job and end the high unemployment in the U.S.?!

Sigh.

I do well enough on the Bach Preludes and Fugues from his children’s books. They’re really pretty, and the people in my parish like them. But I have to practice them for weeks and weeks before I am able to play them for Mass prelude or postlude, and I still manage to stumble through the pedal sections. (Bad feet–had surgeries on both in recent years.)

Anyway, enough of my gloom.

In answer to the OP, I’m not sure what kind of instrument he/she is referring to. If we’re talking about an electronic organ that looks like an organ and mimics the sound of a pipe organ, I would say, YES, go for it. The cost is soooooo much cheaper than a pipe organ–we’re talking about the difference between a upper-end Porsche and a Ford Focus!

Keep in mind that once your parish has the expensive pipe organ, you will have to shell out even MORE money to maintain it and tune it and clean it and repair it and keep the mice out of it. It’s a sinkhole for money.

And then you really should fork over MORE money to hire an organist who is not only capable of playing the pipe organ the way it’s intended to be played, but who also knows how to do the basic maintainance, especially the tuning.

However, if we’re talking about a keyboard that has a setting for “pipe organ,” then DON’T. You’re better off with well-played guitars.

 

[DaveBj]

Not so! Gregorian chant needs no accompaniment.

Chant was not a topic in the discussion. I was comparing pipe organs and digital electronic organs. Stay on topic, please.

 

[michele1984]

So; did you offer to play the organ for this parish at mass?

I’ve actually tried playing a pipe organ. I dont have the heart to make people suffer! But to be honest, I wouldn’t want to hurt the guitar players feelings by saying anything. I suspect this is one reason why the guitars have stayed so prevalent since the 60s.:-\

 

[michele1984]

Just to clarify, it was never my intention to cause division. I have no problem with.church rock bands per se. I played keyboards in a band a few years ago and I understand the joy that comes from jamming with other folks. But the fact is that where I see the other students and plenty of older people plus recent immigrants who had to take transit from the outlying areas to get there is at my citys cathedral where there is a loft choir and pipe organ. At the guitar mass, all I saw were 40 something and older folks. Lot of younger Catholics want this I’ve found, not just me. I would even rather hear the little electric home organs in a smaller church.

 

[robwar]

Just to clarify, it was never my intention to cause division. I have no problem with.church rock bands per se. I played keyboards in a band a few years ago and I understand the joy that comes from jamming with other folks. But the fact is that where I see the other students and plenty of older people plus recent immigrants who had to take transit from the outlying areas to get there is at my citys cathedral where there is a loft choir and pipe organ. At the guitar mass, all I saw were 40 something and older folks. Lot of younger Catholics want this I’ve found, not just me. I would even rather hear the little electric home organs in a smaller church.

I appreciate that! I would encourage you to look again at taking pipe organ lessons and try again. since you do have a heart for this maybe you should really try again
peace

 

[benjohnson]

I really don’t like guitar and folk singing in church.

But if they’re doing in in the name of the Lord, how can I complain? I’d rather hear a child with a simple drum than any recorded music no matter how grand.

In situations like this, I remind myself of the story of the Juggler who performed for the Theotokos:

accuracyproject.org/t-France,Anatole-OurLadysJuggler.html

“Blessed are the simple-hearted, for they shall see God.” Indeed.

 

[triumphguy]

I’ve actually tried playing a pipe organ. I dont have the heart to make people suffer! But to be honest, I wouldn’t want to hurt the guitar players feelings by saying anything. I suspect this is one reason why the guitars have stayed so prevalent since the 60s.:-\

It is. I learned to play guitar in one year (though I did have grade 5 violin so the fingering was easy for me) and having a good voice I was able to lead the parish in song.

My mother played organ - but she had grade 10 piano and a degree in music. That took her many years. And she couldn’t sing and play at the same time.

The organ is a magnificent, fantastic instrument. Nothing beats listening to a great organ played by a master. You feel your whole body cavity vibrating with the music.

But poorly played - it’s the kiss of death for the liturgy.

 

[Deo_Gratias42]

It is. I learned to play guitar in one year (though I did have grade 5 violin so the fingering was easy for me) and having a good voice I was able to lead the parish in song.

My mother played organ - but she had grade 10 piano and a degree in music. That took her many years. And she couldn’t sing and play at the same time.

The organ is a magnificent, fantastic instrument. Nothing beats listening to a great organ played by a master. You feel your whole body cavity vibrating with the music.

But poorly played - it’s the kiss of death for the liturgy.

I have experienced both, and know what you mean. Surely organ teachers get out of a lot of time spent in Purgatory teaching beginners how to play. I’m blessed right now to attend a parish with a professional organist.

 

[Cat]

I have experienced both, and know what you mean. Surely organ teachers get out of a lot of time spent in Purgatory teaching beginners how to play. I’m blessed right now to attend a parish with a professional organist.

I’ll tell that to my organ teacher. He’s a Lutheran, but he’ll get a chuckle out of that.

I was not happy with my organ playing tonight at the workshop. Darned pedals.

 

[Deo_Gratias42]

Darned pedals.

I’m told my long narrow feet, which I hate because I can’t buy affordable shoes that fit, are excellent for playing the organ, as I won’t have to worry about hitting the pedal next to the next one, but I’ll still be able to reach to play pedals without having to move my feet too much.

 

[DaveBj]

I’ll tell that to my organ teacher. He’s a Lutheran, but he’ll get a chuckle out of that.

I was not happy with my organ playing tonight at the workshop. Darned pedals.

You need to get a pair of those special shoes. The ones with radar in the toes

(I thought about that when I was watching a black gospel organist play. His feet were all over the pedal-board, and he never hit one wrong.)

 

[ProVobis]

You need to get a pair of those special shoes. The ones with radar in the toes

(I thought about that when I was watching a black gospel organist play. His feet were all over the pedal-board, and he never hit one wrong.)

Someone with wide feet (like me) finds it easier to play without the shoes. In some churches you can get away with that. Frankly, it never made sense to me to play with shoes. You don’t play the upper keyboards with gloves, do you?

And then there is the matter of conclave-shaped pedal board or flat. Another one with two octave or two-and-half octave. And then the expression pedals. All sorts of adjustments from organ to organ.

 

[Cavaille-Coll]

Given that the Catholic Church is conservative by nature, meaning that she tends to hold on to things longer than most institutions, it makes sense that the whole “folk” Mass and guitar band mentality is still around, while in the secular world that type of music went out with the 8-track. However, just like “futuristic” 1960’s architecture and theology grounded in situational ethics, some things simple haven’t improved with age.

Vatican II and Vatican I both called for the restoration of Gregorian chant to the liturgy, and the contemporary music crowd is divided between those who are ignorant of Church teachings on sacred music and those with rebellious hearts who are convinced that they are bringing the Church out of the “Dark Ages” with show tunes and elevator music.

 

[michele1984]

I would actually love to learn to play the pipe organ. My mother used to suggest that to me. Im thinking of pursuing it when Im finished my degree. Right now, I dont even have time to read for pleasure!!

 

[DaveBj]

Someone with wide feet (like me) finds it easier to play without the shoes. In some churches you can get away with that. Frankly, it never made sense to me to play with shoes. You don’t play the upper keyboards with gloves, do you?

And then there is the matter of conclave-shaped pedal board or flat. Another one with two octave or two-and-half octave. And then the expression pedals. All sorts of adjustments from organ to organ.

I dig. Sock feet always felt better to me, too, especially on an unfamiliar organ.

As an organ player (not an organist), I am a converted piano player (not pianist), and as a piano player, I am a converted accordionist (I will claim the -ist for that one). Playing the organ always feels like patting my head and rubbing my tummy at the same time, or like what I imagine flying a helicopter must be like. It seems like I’m six inches from falling off a cliff.

At the Baptist church where we were members for several years, the design of the voicing was done by another converted piano player, and one of the things that he did was to have an option where the lowest note on the lower manual would play through the pedal stops. That made it easier for incompetents like me.

 

[CB_Catholic]

But, but…playing the pipe organ is sooo easy. Just look at Diane Bish. I’m positive it can’t be THAT hard. You just need a pair of sequined Mary Janes with heels, like Dorothy’s and Diane’s and viola! Your feet will do anything you want them to on those pedals. They will call you “Twinkle Toes” in no time! Tap, tap, tap, and you’ve got it!

 

[Highwayhound]

I am with those that desire an organ. I have nothing against guitars (in fact I am teaching myself how to play guitar), but organ would be my preference.

I am wholly against the “innovative” use of - for example drums or worse electronic beat players. Not only do they sound so odd during mass, but in one local parish the choir conducts their practice before mass right up to about 2 minutes before mass begins. I object to this because I have a hard time focusing my mind on praying when all the music practice is being done.

God bless

 

[Sarabande]

Today I went to a Sunday morning mass where, despite there being installed a beautiful old pipe organ recently, music was sung by a lady with a guitar and an accompiniment. I felt like I was at a folk rock concert…not some place holy. Do people actually prefer this???I decided to stay at the other parish because of this. On Sunday mornings they have a full choir and pipe organs. Even during evening Sunday mass, the flute and piano sounds a lot more refined, they aren’t playing hymns in contemporary rhythms. (I know this sounds hilariously fuddy duddy but it really takes away from things for me.

Ive found out that pipe organists are in very short supply nowadays. But nowadays you also have digital modulation that sounds amazingly like real instruments, including pipe organ, especially out of a big sound system. All you need is the sound system, a midi keyboard and a laptop with a program like Reason installed and a decent piano player.

How would you feel about that option compared to the guitars and stuff? Im curious.

I think that if I couldn’t have an organ (which would be my preferred instrument when played well because I personally think it supports a congregation the best), I’d rather have a piano, which can still support a congregation if it’s not a very large church or cathedral. I like guitars if the guitarists are well-trained and aren’t just strumming or rocking out. That said the only type of guitar I like to hear in church is when it is classical playing and that usually isn’t conducive to congregational singing unless you have an amp, but even then it usually doesn’t work well for large congregations. For small ones, yes, even an amp-less classical guitar can work.

Because of Hurricane Sandy, one of the parishes I work at was out of power for a couple of weeks. No electricity, no heat, zilch. During that time, I cantored for a funeral mass and a mass for All Souls. The organ did not work and they had no piano. A violist and violinist accompanied instead. We used little clip-on lights so that we could see our music and lit candles all throughout the church. We changed up some of the music which absolutely needed the organ, like the Durufle “Pie Jesu”. Some of the mass parts were chanted in English, although the violin helped accompany the parts. The instrumental music were Bach pieces. The masses were quite moving and reverent, but again, those instruments aren’t made for accompanying large groups of people, so for the congregational hymns you had more hesitant, quiet voices rather than their normal, robust sound you would usually hear at a typical mass with the organ. You would need a little orchestra to make it work for large groups.

 

[andrewstx]

When you think about it there is no comparison between an “organ” setting on an electric keyboard and a real organ.

Even a small organ will have at least 10 stops, (or settings), and most have many more with each stop having it’s own distictive sound or voice. There is an organ in a nearby city that has over 80 ranks, or stops.

But Veterans day I visited a church 60 miles away for vespers, it was a small church in a small town, only 15 ranks of pipes. That organ had to compete with massed choirs, brass, bag pipes and handbells, and it rang out clearly.

 

[George_Stegmeir]

Where does everyone else on this forum LIVE where a guitar is somehow something hellworthy? I’ve NEVER attended a single Mass in my whole LIFE that didn’t have a guitar o.0 Whats the big deal?

How sad for you that you don’t know the grandure of Classical Church Music.
For many of us, who are older than you, the guitars we object to are the loud, electrically amplified “rock 'n roll” types that deafen us. As you get older, and your musical taste refines, you too will find this type of music inappropriate for the solumnity of Mass.This type of music belongs in the secular realm, and has its cultural roots in activity unacceptable to Holy Mother The Church.
Un-amplified, acoustic guitars do have a tradition in the Catholic Churches of Southern Germany, Switzerland, and Austria. When the Christman Hymn, “Silent Night” was first performed at a Christmas Eve Mass, it was accompanied with an acoustic guitar because the church organ was broken.

No one in his right mind would accept a choir accompanied by a Brass Oom-Pah-Pah Band, or from a Polka Band, or Dixieland Jazz Band at Mass, so why is a Rock Band acceptable? I think it is a mis-guided attempt to lure adolescents to Mass that impinges upon the dignity of the Mass. Prior to V II This would have been unthinkable!