Dignity and Vocation of Women

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Mark_Marilyn

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There is a question of whether or not there is a deep misogyny in the Church which needs to be fought. Some critics assume there is an endemic and systemic problem with the Church.
This is what the Church has to say about the matter.
Ref: Mulieris Dignitatem.
E-hyper-link will be supplied on request.
 
What in the hell are you talking about?We mostly speak English here!
 
Mike Dye:
What in the hell are you talking about?We mostly speak English here!
I know. I don’t get it either. Are they making a point, expressing an opinion or asking a question??
 
Mark & Marilyn:
There is a question of whether or not there is a deep misogyny in the Church which needs to be fought. Some critics assume there is an endemic and systemic problem with the Church.

E-hyper-link will be supplied on request.
I think the Church has a full grasp on the dignity of women. I love the document Mulieris Dignitatem. Here’s a link to that beautiful document:
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/j...p-ii_apl_15081988_mulieris-dignitatem_en.html

And here’s a document on human sexuality I read yesterday that someone else here at CA forms linked on another thread.
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/p...c_family_doc_08121995_human-sexuality_en.html

As far as the original poster’s charges of misogyny, while individual members of the Church may fail to recognize the dignity of women, The Church has beautiful understanding of women. Look at how the Church holds up Mary and we see the Church’s love for the feminine genius. The second document I linked offered this advice: By constantly taking the Motherhood of the most holy Virgin Mary as a model, they (girls)* should be encouraged to value their femininity.*
 
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gardenswithkids:
I think the Church has a full grasp on the dignity of women. I love the document Mulieris Dignitatem. Here’s a link to that beautiful document:
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/j...p-ii_apl_15081988_mulieris-dignitatem_en.html
Thank you so much, “gardenswithkids,” we were still searching for this address, so as to hyperkink it.
Good document. 👍
To Mike Dye + Thistle: Pls. click on the hyperlink hi-lited words and, with a little patience, read the whole document. You’ll see.
🙂 Where do you stand on the dignity and status of women?
Liberal? Conservative? Ultra-conservative? = :mad:
Read the document. Critically? With open mind? Both!
 
o There is nothing wrong, in principle, with intelligent, sensible, professional women achieving positions of higher learning and authority. 👍
o Such a status for women DID in fact exist with the Great Abbesses of Europe circa 400 - c. 900 A.D. :cool:

Mulieris Dignitatem
 
Mark & Marilyn:
o There is nothing wrong, in principle, with intelligent, sensible, professional women achieving positions of higher learning and authority. 👍
o Such a status for women DID in fact exist with the Great Abbesses of Europe circa 400 - c. 900 A.D. :cool:

Mulieris Dignitatem
I have an “ultra-conservative” view on the dignity of women - they are created in the image and likeness of God, and therefore have the same dignity as every other child of God. This has been the constant teaching of the Church for 2000 years, so I am perfectly content to conserve this teaching (even if it includes the now-epithet “ultra-”). Those who would depart from the constant teachings of Holy Mother Church are “liberals”, and I would put the little frowny face on them if I were you.

Should women, in principle, achieve positions of higher learning and authority? I believe the Church has not just said so, but has taken action at several points in history to demonstrate that this is a value dearly held.

Arch-type: Mary. Our nature’s solitary boast is not a man, it is a woman. The Woman. The Theotokos, the Queen of Heaven, the Ark of the New Covenant, the Mother of all Christians. The most perfect creation the universe has ever known was a woman - if this doesn’t teach the respect the Church has for women, I’m not sure what does.

Lesser Demonstrations: The last three Doctors of the Church. There are only 33 Doctors of the Church, and these people are said to teach only the highest theology. The last three Doctors have all been women (in 1970 Paul VI added St. Teresa of Avila and St. Catherine of Siena; John Paul II added St. Thérèse of Lisieux in 1997). Can you tell me who was the pastor of the parish of St. Catherine? If not, then surely you cannot assert that women hold a second-class status.

In 1840, well before women had voting rights or other such amenities, St. Mary-of-the-Woods College was founded in Indiana (where I live). It was not the first college of its kind, but represents a very progressive stance for the era on exactly what sort of role the Church believed women should have - educated. Those who say that the Church doesn’t want women to be educated don’t know their history.

I hope this puts the matter to rest.

God Bless,
RyanL
 
Oh…I should add that the first woman to ever hold a doctoral degree, Elena Piscopia, had it conferred on her at the Cathedral of the Blessed Virgin, Padua, Italy in 1678.

And she later took the habit of a Benedictine oblate.

If you go there you’ll find a nice statue, but if you can’t go there Vassar College has a beautiful stained glass presentation of her defending her thesis at the Cathedral of Padua.

God Bless,
RyanL
 
ummm…does the original poster realize that in the Catholic Church historically women were given places higher in authority than the general public? I am talking about hospital administrators, principals, deans of colleges…the first women in all these fields were at Catholic institutions and still to this day Catholic institutions employ more women in higher authority than our secular counterparts. As a Catholic woman, I am refreshed that I don’t have to make myself masculine to compete in the workforce, that I have a place that allows me to nurture my feminine side and that I am respected for making business decisions based on what is best for my family. I think that is much more liberating than trying to be something I am not.
 
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RyanL:
There are only 33 Doctors of the Church, and these people are said to teach only the highest theology. The last three Doctors have all been women (in 1970 Paul VI added St. Teresa of Avila and St. Catherine of Siena; John Paul II added St. Thérèse of Lisieux in 1997).
Also, though she is not a doctor of the church, let’s not forget St. Teresa Benedicta of the Cross, Edith Stein. Her philosophical and theological works were central to John Paul II’s own work, and he held in her in high regard as a philospher, theologian and model for women.
 
Mark & Marilyn:
There is a question of whether or not there is a deep misogyny in the Church which needs to be fought. Some critics assume there is an endemic and systemic problem with the Church.

E-hyper-link will be supplied on request.
That document is one of the treasures of the legacy of JPII. Read that together with “On the Collaboration of Men and Men in the Church and in the World” here to see how NOT misogynistic authentic Catholic teaching is.

Mark and Marilyn, you bring up a great topic! It is true that the Church is often falsely accused of this and other wrongs. Time and again we are able to defend against these critics you mention simply by going to the source documents.
 
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Corki:
That document is one of the treasures of the legacy of JPII. Read that together with “On the Collaboration of Men and Men in the Church and in the World” here to see how NOT misogynistic authentic Catholic teaching is.

Mark and Marilyn, you bring up a great topic! It is true that the Church is often falsely accused of this and other wrongs. Time and again we are able to defend against these critics you mention simply by going to the source documents.
Thank you! 😉 And thanks for introducing the other documents to put all this into proper perspective. Here is some more historical research on the great contributions First Millenium women had made to Christendom and particularly the Church…
It’s from extensive research done by Holly Dressel; documents written (and narrated on video) by Gloria Demers; other research, production, direction and publications by Margaret Wescott, Signe Johansson, Kathleen Shannon…:
o At one time, … an abbess could even host a synod. The Great Abbesses were not mere custodians but leaders who had the same power and authority as bishops.
o 702: Alfleda, famous comforter and best counsellor in all Northumbria, the intellectual centre of 8th Century England. As a diplomatic genius, she was appointed to mediate between the beseiged Bishop of York and his enemies. She also hosted a synod on the River Nyd.
o Briquida of Sweden – had a bishop’s mitre in her possession. She headed a double monastery in Whitby, worked diligently for the poor and sick, and was welcomed in courts all over Europe.
o Matilda of Quenenburg – established many centres of learning, ruled one major centre with many clerics, and hosted a synod attended by the pope. Some male clerics later tried to oust her from power but failed.
o Gertrude of Nivelle – lived only 33 years, yet she became famous across Europe for her achievements. She had a Crozia, a bishop’s staff with the curled symbol, in possession of the Convent of Salzburg. She also had a mitre in her wardrobe. No ordinary nun would ever have been permitted such possessions.
o Scholastica – educated her students in a rich textile culture. The period produced brilliant scholars, devoted to the fine art of weaving and spirituality. One superbly designed robe is still on display to this day at the Victoria & Albert Museum.
o Claricia – script writer, calligrapher and profoundly intuitive artist, “whimsically” sketched and painted a “Q” with the tail a portrait of herself.
o Radica – from a long line of abbesses, well educated teachers and scholars, and – Herat – together compiled an encyclopedia of education for nuns. At the time, abbesses heard confessions from sisters, distributed communion, preached and performed liturgical rites, but the greatest abbess of all was…
o Hildegaard of Bingham – the greatest female genius, who could be recognized in any age. She was a mystic, philosopher and consultant to kings, as well as an expert on medical science and anatomy. Her works presaged medical discoveries on the circulatory and central nervous system. She was also a musician, a composer and had spiritual visions such as the “Scyvia,” a holistic universe with heavenly scenes featuring mitres on female heads. One great tapestry showed Sophia, the goddess of wisdom, guiding Socrates and Plato in the three fields of Logic, Ethics and Physics, from which flowed the seven great disciplines. 👍
 
Mark & Marilyn:
… The Great Abbesses were not mere custodians but leaders who had the same power and authority as bishops.
…had a bishop’s mitre in her possession…
…She had a Crozia, a bishop’s staff with the curled symbol…
Subtle, but don’t slip that into the discussion here. Women can (and have had) power and authority in the Church, but not the same as bishops. Bishops’ authority includes the power to consecrate the Eucharist and ordain priests. It demeans the wonderful contribution of the great abbesses and women in Church history to suggest that they were the same as bishops. If you truly recognize the dignity and vocation of women, then don’t try to revive history to turn great women into men.
 
If you truly recognize the dignity and vocation of women, then don’t try to revive history to turn great women into men.
Do you mean revise?

Yeah, I was doing fine until I read the implications that women were being heal akin to bishops.

There was a time when bishops wielded great political power. Perhaps at that time an abbess could have possessed the same *political power *as a bishop had. But it is a perversion to interpret these things as the abbess have all the same powers as a bishop.
 
Black Jaque:
Do you mean revise?
Yes, that’s the word I meant to use. Thank you.
I meant to write: “If you truly recognize the dignity and vocation of women, then don’t try to revise history to turn great women into men.”
 
I meant to write: “If you truly recognize the dignity and vocation of women, then don’t try to revise history to turn great women into men.”
I only have to smell my armpits to know that turning women into men does nothing to elevate their dignity.
 
Black Jaque:
I only have to smell my armpits to know that turning women into men does nothing to elevate their dignity.
:rotfl: I’ll add that to my list of reasons I’m glad I’m a woman.🙂
 
In a disciplinary sense I suppose one could argue that an abbess exercised the same disciplinary power as a bishop. If I understand it correctly, religious orders function almost like their own little diocese rather than being subject to the jurisdiction of the diocese in which they dwell.

But as noted, that’s a lot different than claiming they held holy orders. Some folks seem unable to grasp the concept that the priesthood is not an honor reserved to men because they are worthier. They attempt to construct a straw man that says if one proves a woman is as intelligent, as holy, as capable a leader than your typical male priest then one has proved that withholding orders from women is an injustice. Not so. God simply has other plans and other ways to use the talents and genius he has granted women.
 
As the subject of abbesses and women in religious life has come up, the original document being discussed in this thread had some great insights on women in religious life. Here’s some of what Mulieris Dignitatem says on “spiritual motherhood”:

***Motherhood according to the Spirit ***
  1. Virginity according to the Gospel means *renouncing marriage and thus physical motherhood. *Nevertheless, the renunciation of this kind of motherhood, a renunciation that can involve great sacrifice for a woman, makes possible a different kind of motherhood: motherhood “*according to the Spirit” *(cf. *Rom *8:4).For virginity does not deprive a woman of her prerogatives. Spiritual motherhood takes on many different forms. In the life of consecrated women, for example, who live according to the charism and the rules of the various apostolic Institutes, it can express itself as concern for people, especially the most needy: the sick, the handicapped, the abandoned, orphans, the elderly, children, young people, the imprisoned and, in general, people on the edges of society. *In this way a consecrated woman finds her Spouse, *different and the same in each and every person, according to his very words: “As you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me” *(Mt *25:40). Spousal love always involves a special readiness to be poured out for the sake of those who come within one’s range of activity. In marriage this readiness, even though open to all, consists mainly in the love that parents give to their children. In virginity this readiness is open to all people, who are embraced by the love of Christ the Spouse.
Spousal love - with its maternal potential hidden in the heart of the woman as a virginal bride - when joined to Christ, the Redeemer of each and every person, is also predisposed to being open to each and every person. This is confirmed in the religious communities of apostolic life, and in a different way in communities of contemplative life, or the cloister.
 
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