Dignity of a "non-practising" homosexual person

[tiagu83]

What is the stance of the Church on someone like myself?

Since I was 13, I have experienced same-sex attraction to boys. I am now well into my 20s, and I feel the same way. I have however never engaged in any same-sex sexual activity. I have done all that is asked by the Catholic Church in resisting this sexual activity, not through my own will, but through the will of God. Yet in spite of this, I still feel that I am looked down upon by the Church and by members of the Church. I do not engage in any “gay lifestyle” whatever that may mean, but yet I do not date girls either in some attempt to conform to expectations.

Many who post here are not familiar with same-sex attraction and believe it to be a sexual perversion, yet I can confirm through my own experience that never once have I desired to engage in sexual acts in a perverted manner with another male. Rather, I would describe it as a deep emotional bond with another soul. I desired close companionship and to be charitable towards them, but never sex from these attractions. In any case, never has sex come to pass. That is why I say it is through God’s will and not my own.

But yet, why treat me in such a hostile manner? Though I have always been involved in the church, I feel my own relationship (with the Church, not with Jesus) is beginning to wear thin. I feel as though I have conformed with their will, despite the obvious contradictions which it has placed upon my heart, and yet my treatment grows increasingly hostile as I grow older. What of my essential dignity as a human being? Do I deserve the presumptuous and snide comments towards myself from individuals who I believe have shown less restraint than myself in their sexual lives?

 

[jmcrae]

What is the stance of the Church on someone like myself?

Since I was 13, I have experienced same-sex attraction to boys. I am now well into my 20s, and I feel the same way. I have however never engaged in any same-sex sexual activity. I have done all that is asked by the Catholic Church in resisting this sexual activity, not through my own will, but through the will of God. Yet in spite of this, I still feel that I am looked down upon by the Church and by members of the Church. I do not engage in any “gay lifestyle” whatever that may mean, but yet I do not date girls either in some attempt to conform to expectations.

This is both honest and virtuous. There is nothing wrong with this at all.

If someone has been treating you in a hostile manner, it has everything to do with them, and nothing to do with you. Just avoid those kinds of people, and don’t bring up the subject of your sexuality - it is nobody else’s business, anyway. You are not defined by your sexuality alone.

If someone asks why you don’t date, you can just tell them, “I know for a fact that I am not called by God to marriage and family life,” and then change the subject.

You can certainly have strong friendships with other males, without it becoming a sexual thing. As a straight female, I have many strong friendships with men, that have no sexual component to them.

 

[Tsion]

JMJ

hug

Welcome my brother! I know it takes great courage to talk about this. I too have been struggling with SSA since I was a kid. If you need to chat, the information is in m profile.

 

[Shlomey]

What is the stance of the Church on someone like myself?

Since I was 13, I have experienced same-sex attraction to boys. I am now well into my 20s, and I feel the same way. I have however never engaged in any same-sex sexual activity. I have done all that is asked by the Catholic Church in resisting this sexual activity, not through my own will, but through the will of God. Yet in spite of this, I still feel that I am looked down upon by the Church and by members of the Church. I do not engage in any “gay lifestyle” whatever that may mean, but yet I do not date girls either in some attempt to conform to expectations.

Many who post here are not familiar with same-sex attraction and believe it to be a sexual perversion, yet I can confirm through my own experience that never once have I desired to engage in sexual acts in a perverted manner with another male. Rather, I would describe it as a deep emotional bond with another soul. I desired close companionship and to be charitable towards them, but never sex from these attractions. In any case, never has sex come to pass. That is why I say it is through God’s will and not my own.

But yet, why treat me in such a hostile manner? Though I have always been involved in the church, I feel my own relationship (with the Church, not with Jesus) is beginning to wear thin. I feel as though I have conformed with their will, despite the obvious contradictions which it has placed upon my heart, and yet my treatment grows increasingly hostile as I grow older. What of my essential dignity as a human being? Do I deserve the presumptuous and snide comments towards myself from individuals who I believe have shown less restraint than myself in their sexual lives?

A couple here see people who have homosexual orientation as somewhat “ticking timebombs” just waiting to explode into yet another scandal.

So much zeal, but lacking in charity…makes me think of 1 Corinthians 13.

If only we had guys like St. Basil around

 

[Kevin42]

What is the stance of the Church on someone like myself?

Since I was 13, I have experienced same-sex attraction to boys. I am now well into my 20s, and I feel the same way. I have however never engaged in any same-sex sexual activity. I have done all that is asked by the Catholic Church in resisting this sexual activity, not through my own will, but through the will of God. Yet in spite of this, I still feel that I am looked down upon by the Church and by members of the Church. I do not engage in any “gay lifestyle” whatever that may mean, but yet I do not date girls either in some attempt to conform to expectations.

Many who post here are not familiar with same-sex attraction and believe it to be a sexual perversion, yet I can confirm through my own experience that never once have I desired to engage in sexual acts in a perverted manner with another male. Rather, I would describe it as a deep emotional bond with another soul. I desired close companionship and to be charitable towards them, but never sex from these attractions. In any case, never has sex come to pass. That is why I say it is through God’s will and not my own.

But yet, why treat me in such a hostile manner? Though I have always been involved in the church, I feel my own relationship (with the Church, not with Jesus) is beginning to wear thin. I feel as though I have conformed with their will, despite the obvious contradictions which it has placed upon my heart, and yet my treatment grows increasingly hostile as I grow older. What of my essential dignity as a human being? Do I deserve the presumptuous and snide comments towards myself from individuals who I believe have shown less restraint than myself in their sexual lives?

I am in a very similar situation, except unfortunately I also experience sexual desires. Nonetheless, I simply give these desires over to the Lord and offer any suffering I experience to Him. I am blessed by the Lord to have been given a very good friend with whom I can experience a deep emotional bond with and share agape love with, so this makes it all the easier to give up the sexual desires for me. Without a good friend(s) in life, things are much more difficult, so it is important to have all the aid one can.

I understand what you mean though when you say that you feel as though you are treated with hostility and perhaps even like an outcast in your own community. All I can say is that if you treat everyone with the most love you can give them, then gradually they will come to see the beauty that you as a person were given by God. Even if you are treated badly, it is more suffering that you can offer to Jesus.

Continue living your life as you have, and know that you are not alone. Pray and do your best to get closer to Jesus every day. Also, be sure to do your best to become close to your own family and friends so that you will have external support as well. While we are called to celibacy many times, that does not mean that we are called to be alone.

Peace and good.
-Kevin

 

[Tsion]

JMJ

I am a member of Courage. We have a discussion forum. Check out couragerc.net or anyone can contact me with the information in my profile.

 

[Exalt]

Since I was 13, I have experienced same-sex attraction to boys. I am now well into my 20s, and I feel the same way. I have however never engaged in any same-sex sexual activity.

You probably won’t want to hear this. You’ll probably read it and look away and think it’s a temptation to sin. But I think that what I have to say is the right thing for you to do, which is why I’m suggesting it.

The Church might be wrong. The Church believes that homosexuality is an objective disorder, and homosexual activity a sin. But, I think we need to seriously consider the possibility that they are mistaken.

We all recognize that part of being human involves close relationships with others. We have an innate desire (perhaps the result of divine intervention or perhaps the result of evolution) to find a very special person and engage in a special relationships with that person. Of course, you already know this. The Church knows this too. Now, for some reason, people like you and me almost always want these people to be members of the same sex. We’re just attracted to other men or other women, and that’s just the way we are.

Now, we don’t know why that is. Most human beings generally want this special relationship to be with members of the opposite sex. But a small minority (like you and me) prefer those of the same sex, and no one really knows why. We *do *know that it wasn’t our choice. We *do *know that it feels innate in us - and that it feels natural. But we don’t know why, for sure.

So, is it wrong to pursue that? The Catholic Church says that sexual contact is wrong - and that our desires are an objective evil. But, their reasons are pretty shallow. First, they say it’s wrong because it’s unnatural. You might respond (just like many others have) with the fact that many other mammals exhibit the same behavior, and such behavior frequently serves a vital role in the societies of those animals. So is it really unnatural? Furthermore, they say it’s against the will of God, and as evidence they point to the Biblical condemnation of homosexuality. The Bible is the word of God and we ought to accept everything it says as gospel. But the problem is that the Bible says lots of things that are objectionable - it endorses slavery and war (for very bad reasons, such as territorial expansion), just to name a couple. And we definitely believe that Bible is wrong on slavery. So it *could *be wrong on homosexuality. And other than that, they really don’t have much in the way of arguments.

So my question is this: Couldn’t the Church be wrong on this point? Wanting an intimate relationship with another person is perfectly natural, and there’s no good reason why it shouldn’t be another man or another woman.

Part of being human is pursuing these types of relationships. It’s just who we are. It’s not all happy, either. Intimate relationships can be tough - they have their own particular joys and sorrows.

Yet in spite of this, I still feel that I am looked down upon by the Church and by members of the Church…

Why treat me in such a hostile manner? Though I have always been involved in the church, I feel my own relationship (with the Church, not with Jesus) is beginning to wear thin. I feel as though I have conformed with their will, despite the obvious contradictions which it has placed upon my heart, and yet my treatment grows increasingly hostile as I grow older. What of my essential dignity as a human being? Do I deserve the presumptuous and snide comments towards myself from individuals who I believe have shown less restraint than myself in their sexual lives?

You don’t deserve it. Unfortunately, part of being Catholic means that they believe your attractions are fundamentally disordered. They think you’re sick. They think something is wrong with you. And, I’m very sorry for that. (On a side note: It’s not true. There’s nothing wrong with you.) On the other hand, the Church does say that people with homosexual attractions should be embraced and loved. (Catechism of the Catholic Church p/ 2358)

Have you respectfully spoken with them about their attitudes? Have you informed them that their Church requires them to be compassionate? How have they responded? Have you talked to the pastor? Maybe he can write a special sermon addressing the subject generally.

I’d love to hear your thoughts on my response.

 

[savienu]

God bless you, tiagu83. I also struggle with SSA. It is hard to face the judgment of some self-professed Christians, but, I have found that it does seem to be getting a bit better. You are a fantastic witness for the faith. Keep doing your part to show the truth of Christ, and lean on those that DO know you, and won’t pass judgment. I would recommend looking into Courage for fellowship and support. You are also welcome to contact me privately.

 

[Arrowood]

Unfortunately, part of being Catholic means that they believe your attractions are fundamentally disordered. They think you’re sick. They think something is wrong with you. And, I’m very sorry for that. (On a side note: It’s not true. There’s nothing wrong with you.) On the other hand, the Church does say that people with homosexual attractions should be embraced and loved. (Catechism of the Catholic Church p/ 2358)

First let me make it clear that I agree with everyone here – those who struggle with same-sex attraction deserve our compassion and respect, not our derision. However, the statement quoted above betrays a common misunderstanding of Catholic teaching. Yes, the Church calls same-sex attraction disordered. But the term “disordered” is a very specific term in theology. Ordered sexuality is oriented toward intimacy and procreation for the purpose of creating family. Any sexual desire that is not ordered toward the creation of a family is “disordered” - not properly oriented. It does not mean that people with same-sex attraction are sick.

Futhermore, everyone’s sexuality is disordered to one degree or another. As a married man, I can tell you that my own sexuality is not always oriented toward the creation of family. Something is wrong with all of us - it’s called Original Sin.

Catholics are called to approach people with same-sex attraction as brothers and sisters because we all struggle to control disordered (sexual) desires and to avoid sin. tiagu83, any Catholic treating you with scorn and hostility are either struggling with their own chastity (and you’re reminding them of that struggle) or clueless about their own fallenness.

Finally, the Church’s teachings on SSA and the homosexual lifestyle are not about having intimate friendships, it’s about sex. Intimate relationships do not have to be sexual. In fact, disordered sexuality tends to interfere with true intimacy because it focuses us on pleasure and makes us selfish.

I have to say that I admire those of you with SSA who are embracing chastity. My struggles are smaller than yours, but so is my strength. God bless you!

 

[savienu]

First let me make it clear that I agree with everyone here – those who struggle with same-sex attraction deserve our compassion and respect, not our derision. However, the statement quoted above betrays a common misunderstanding of Catholic teaching. Yes, the Church calls same-sex attraction disordered. But the term “disordered” is a very specific term in theology. Ordered sexuality is oriented toward intimacy and procreation for the purpose of creating family. Any sexual desire that is not ordered toward the creation of a family is “disordered” - not properly oriented. It does not mean that people with same-sex attraction are sick.

Futhermore, everyone’s sexuality is disordered to one degree or another. As a married man, I can tell you that my own sexuality is not always oriented toward the creation of family. Something is wrong with all of us - it’s called Original Sin.

Catholics are called to approach people with same-sex attraction as brothers and sisters because we all struggle to control disordered (sexual) desires and to avoid sin. tiagu83, any Catholic treating you with scorn and hostility are either struggling with their own chastity (and you’re reminding them of that struggle) or clueless about their own fallenness.

Finally, the Church’s teachings on SSA and the homosexual lifestyle are not about having intimate friendships, it’s about sex. Intimate relationships do not have to be sexual. In fact, disordered sexuality tends to interfere with true intimacy because it focuses us on pleasure and makes us selfish.

I have to say that I admire those of you with SSA who are embracing chastity. My struggles are smaller than yours, but so is my strength. God bless you!

Thank you for kind post.

 

[GraceDK]

:tiphat: tiagu…
I am a living stone in the Church and I say
You are cool… actually you are really cool… you fall into the category of the ones that I envy and look up to in the area of sexuality… there is quite a group of heroes there and you are one of them… keep up the good way. Proud of you! You are… :yeah_me:

Grace

 

[mchale]

Taigu,
It is unfortunate that you have experienced a lack of charity on the part of some. My particular cross is not Same Sex Attraction, but we all have crosses. On the flip side, the fact that you do not seem to have any sexual attraction in regards to your SSA could in some sense be considered a great blessing. The Church is not against deep and loving relationships between people; only the disordered use of one of God’s greatest gifts (the sexual act). Ultimately you seem to have a vocation of some sort of life outside of marriage (whether single or as part of an order), and that is a wonderful gift allowing you to dedicate yourself more fully to the services of others.

The unfortunate thing is that many of the people who might look down on you, ignore the fact that by abstaining from sex, you are being more virtuous (in this area at least) than many people with out SSA.

So in any case, keep up your faith and your hope. I am sure many here will pray for you.

–
Bill

 

[goofyjim]

I truly feel that as long as we don’t engage in same gender behavior, we can celebrate our sexuality no matter whether it is homosexual or heterosexual. One should not have to walk around with his eyes to the ground if he is homosexual and celibate. He has the same dignity as anyone else.

 

[Newbie2]

Now, we don’t know why that is. Most human beings generally want this special relationship to be with members of the opposite sex. But a small minority (like you and me) prefer those of the same sex, and no one really knows why. Hence, it is a disordered orientation.We *do *know that it wasn’t our choice. We *do *know that it feels innate in us - and that it feels natural. But we don’t know why, for sure.

So, is it wrong to pursue that? The Catholic Church says that sexual contact is wrong - and that our desires are an objective evil. Not exactly. The Church recognizes that such an orientation is not a willful thing. The desires themselves are not sinful, but giving into them is…just like with a person who is an alcholoic.But, their reasons are pretty shallow. First, they say it’s wrong because it’s unnatural. You might respond (just like many others have) with the fact that many other mammals exhibit the same behavior, and such behavior frequently serves a vital role in the societies of those animals. You might say that, but that is untrue. This happens in nature in a very few instances. However, such a comparison cheapens the homosexually orientated person, lowering them to the status of a non-person; an animal. The Church refuses to do so, and maintains that all humans have a human dignity.So is it really unnatural? Furthermore, they say it’s against the will of God, and as evidence they point to the Biblical condemnation of homosexuality. The Bible is the word of God and we ought to accept everything it says as gospel. But the problem is that the Bible says lots of things that are objectionable - it endorses slavery and war Untrue. “Endorsing” is an incorrect term. Slavery and war were, are and will always be a part of sinful human nature and behavior. Not once can one find a reference that “endorses” slavery or war in Scripture or Catholic theology. This viewpoint is simplistic and naive, not to mention relativistic. One might as well say that practicing homosexuality isn’t as bad as killing someone, so it must be OK. (for very bad reasons, such as territorial expansion), just to name a couple. And we definitely believe that Bible is wrong on slavery. So it *could *be wrong on homosexuality. And other than that, they really don’t have much in the way of arguments.

So my question is this: Couldn’t the Church be wrong on this point? NoWanting an intimate relationship with another person is perfectly natural, and there’s no good reason why it shouldn’t be another man or another woman. There you may have a point, but are uninformed on the Church’s position on this matter. One can be intimate without participating in sexual activity. Perhaps the trouble is that we don’t distinguish types of love in our society as well as the ancient greeks did, i.e. Agape vs. Eros

You don’t deserve it. Unfortunately, part of being Catholic means that they believe your attractions are fundamentally disordered. They think you’re sick. UNTRUE. If it was a sickness, every homosexually oriented person could be “cured”, and it’s clear that that’s not the case.They think something is wrong with you. UNTRUE. We think there is something disordered about the orientation, not the person.And, I’m very sorry for that. (On a side note: It’s not true. There’s nothing wrong with you.) On the other hand, the Church does say that people with homosexual attractions should be embraced and loved. (Catechism of the Catholic Church p/ 2358)

I’d love to hear your thoughts on my response.

Well, you asked for it.

It’s very true, there are many Catholics who exhibit a most uncharitable and perhaps UnChristian-like attitude toward homosexual persons.

My theory is that a lot of the uncharitable response by many Catholics is reactionary to the homosexual element in this country that could be termed “activist” or even “zealot”. Many of us have had homosexuality pushed in our faces, and we are under constant assault not only to be “tolerant” of homosexual behavior all around us but to be forced to “accept” it, our religious and moral beliefs be damned.

About 10 years ago we got a letter in the mail soliciting our business (among others) to advertise in a new, local “gay” monthly newspaper/magazine. Our business isn’t the kind that would benefit from such advertising, or any local magazine advertising for that matter, so I aimed it for the trash can.

However, something caught my eye on the page and I read the whole thing. Turns out if you didn’t choose to advertise in their publication, your business would be listed in a special section that would be labeled as “businesses who chose not to support our magazine”, the idea being that “our readers can draw their own conclusions”.

In other words, support us or we will label you homophobic.

This experience had a profound impact on me for many years. However, I had a conversation with a gay client of mine who’s partner had died about 6 months before. We talked about his loss and he told me I was the first person he had been comfortable speaking to about his grief and loss; they had been together for over 40 years. That experience taught me about the personal dimension of such relationships.

While I fully agree with the Church’s teachings on this matter, I think we all can do a much better job of loving and accepting the sinner, while rejecting the sin

 

[StCsDavid]

for God created man for incorruption, and made him in the image of his own eternity,

Wisdom 2:23

Each of us strives to achieve this incorruptible state of being that God intended…very few achieve it in this life. I don’t doubt that hostility exists towards gay members of our faith though I’ve never witnessed it first hand. Such hostility has no place in our communion of saints.

Two questions I do have…if one is not engaging in homosexual activity or pursing the lifestyle that so often accompanies it, then how does the community at large know that one is a homosexual?

Second, how is a heterosexual man who has a lustful will for women; who frequently has to check his thoughts and resist the temptation for doing impure things such as looking at porn or pleasuring himself; any less disordered with regard to God’s gift of human sexuality than his homosexual brother?

IHMO, it’s not the object of the lustful will that is sinful, but rather the lust in and of itself.

​

 

[Crumpy]

The thread on “homosexuality and geneology” was closed, as it got off the topic.

I think it was “off” it’s own topic, because the original poster probably meant “homosexuality and genetics.”

The debate there was largely about whether homosexuality was due to genetics or to upbringing. But, there’s a third option (and that relates to this thread).

There was a National Geographics channel documentary suggesting (and they were stronger than suggesting) that homosexuality results from a problem in the 5th week of fetal development. So, abnormal development in the womb may be the problem.

No one else may agree with me, but I think that homosexuality is a type of disease - a disease due to something wrong during development.

Like those with other kinds of diseases, the person is not responsible for the disease. Some may practice homosexuality for thrills or whatever, but the ordinary person with same-sex attraction has a disease – my opinion.

This disease is so easy to get, that it is documented as far back as the Bible, and it occurs around the world in humans, and even in animals.

We just don’t know how to define the disease and how to treat it.

The studies I’ve heard reported say that homosexuals really would rather not be homosexual, and many teens today in the US commit suicide for this reason.

Whatever else is said about the issue of homosexuality, I look for a day when it can be treated and this type of discussion becomes obsolete.

But, the person with same-sex attraction has a physical disease and should be treated with the same respect as a person with any other kind of disease, or a person without disease.

If such a person behaves in anti-social ways, by acting out, then they are morally in error. But, they still deserve ordinary respect. Their soul is still made in the image and likeness of God.

 

[Tsion]

JMJ

StCsDavid, the community may have suspicions that one may have SSA.

Question two: I think you are correct. Lust is the evil, not the attraction. I could sit here and look at porn or pleasure myself or have relations with a women on artificial birth control. These are all the same as having relations with the same gender - they deviate from what sexual relations are meant to be, the renewal of wedding vows and possible procreation.

SSA is not sinful, only the act itself.
Wanting to steal is not sinful, only the act itself.

I am not good with words and I am sure there are flaws in my arguments.

 

[goofyjim]

The thread on “homosexuality and geneology” was closed, as it got off the topic.

I think it was “off” it’s own topic, because the original poster probably meant “homosexuality and genetics.”

The debate there was largely about whether homosexuality was due to genetics or to upbringing. But, there’s a third option (and that relates to this thread).

There was a National Geographics channel documentary suggesting (and they were stronger than suggesting) that homosexuality results from a problem in the 5th week of fetal development. So, abnormal development in the womb may be the problem.

No one else may agree with me, but I think that homosexuality is a type of disease - a disease due to something wrong during development.

Like those with other kinds of diseases, the person is not responsible for the disease. Some may practice homosexuality for thrills or whatever, but the ordinary person with same-sex attraction has a disease – my opinion.

This disease is so easy to get, that it is documented as far back as the Bible, and it occurs around the world in humans, and even in animals.

We just don’t know how to define the disease and how to treat it.

The studies I’ve heard reported say that homosexuals really would rather not be homosexual, and many teens today in the US commit suicide for this reason.

Whatever else is said about the issue of homosexuality, I look for a day when it can be treated and this type of discussion becomes obsolete.

But, the person with same-sex attraction has a physical disease and should be treated with the same respect as a person with any other kind of disease, or a person without disease.

If such a person behaves in anti-social ways, by acting out, then they are morally in error. But, they still deserve ordinary respect. Their soul is still made in the image and likeness of God.

Same sex attraction is NOT a disease.

 

[jmcrae]

Same sex attraction is NOT a disease.

There are many deaf people who say that deafness is not a disability - because from their point of view, being deaf feels normal.

But, from an objective point of view, they are lacking one of the five senses that most human beings are born with, and therefore, we see that as a disability, and because we know what they are missing - music, the voice of a beloved child or parent, warning signals, etc. - so we say that they are lacking something, even though from their point of view they don’t miss it and don’t want it.

From our point of view as heterosexuals, we can see what homosexuals are missing, so we see it as “not normal” and lacking in the fullness of human experience.

 

[goofyjim]

There are many deaf people who say that deafness is not a disability - because from their point of view, being deaf feels normal.

But, from an objective point of view, they are lacking one of the five senses that most human beings are born with, and therefore, we see that as a disability, and because we know what they are missing - music, the voice of a beloved child or parent, warning signals, etc. - so we say that they are lacking something, even though from their point of view they don’t miss it and don’t want it.

From our point of view as heterosexuals, we can see what homosexuals are missing, so we see it as “not normal” and lacking in the fullness of human experience.

But the condition does not need to be changed. It is not immoral by itself. Only the behavior is. I know a few too many heterosexuals who are lacking the fullness of human experience as well. It is totally inconsequential whether one is homosexua or heterosexual as long as they don’t practice outside of marriage.