Dilemma of time and the act of creation

[Wesrock]

There you go “tensing” things up again.

There was no process, no one step to another. The state of “before” creation did not exist for a single moment of time. There is no prior state before.

 

[AveOTheotokos]

I put forth the following question for pondering: where or within what does “time” exist?

Also, here is a link to the Catholic Encyclopedia article on time:

newadvent.org/cathen/14726a.htm

 

[Wesrock]

To be is to be something. Nothing cannot “be.”

 

[AveOTheotokos]

From the Summa Theologica, First Part, Question 46:

Article 3. Whether the creation of things was in the beginning of time?

Objection 1. It would seem that the creation of things was not in the beginning of time. For whatever is not in time, is not of any part of time. But the creation of things was not in time; for by the creation the substance of things was brought into being; and time does not measure the substance of things, and especially of incorporeal things. Therefore creation was not in the beginning of time.

Objection 2. Further, the Philosopher proves (Phys. vi, text 40) that everything which is made, was being made; and so to be made implies a “before” and “after.” But in the beginning of time, since it is indivisible, there is no “before” and “after.” Therefore, since to be created is a kind of “being made,” it appears that things were not created in the beginning of time.

Objection 3. Further, even time itself is created. But time cannot be created in the beginning of time, since time is divisible, and the beginning of time is indivisible. Therefore, the creation of things was not in the beginning of time.

On the contrary, It is said (Genesis 1:1): “In the beginning God created heaven and earth.”

I answer that, The words of Genesis, “In the beginning God created heaven and earth,” are expounded in a threefold sense in order to exclude three errors. For some said that the world always was, and that time had no beginning; and to exclude this the words “In the beginning” are expounded–viz. “of time.” And some said that there are two principles of creation, one of good things and the other of evil things, against which “In the beginning” is expounded–“in the Son.” For as the efficient principle is appropriated to the Father by reason of power, so the exemplar principle is appropriated to the Son by reason of wisdom, in order that, as it is said (Psalm 103:24), “Thou hast made all things in wisdom,” it may be understood that God made all things in the beginning–that is, in the Son; according to the word of the Apostle (Colossians 1:16), “In Him”–viz. the Son–“were created all things.” But others said that corporeal things were created by God through the medium of spiritual creation; and to exclude this it is expounded thus: “In the beginning”–i.e. before all things–“God created heaven and earth.” For four things are stated to be created together–viz. the empyrean heaven, corporeal matter, by which is meant the earth, time, and the angelic nature.

Reply to Objection 1. Things are said to be created in the beginning of time, not as if the beginning of time were a measure of creation, but because together with time heaven and earth were created.

Reply to Objection 2. This saying of the Philosopher is understood “of being made” by means of movement, or as the term of movement. Because, since in every movement there is “before” and “after,” before any one point in a given movement–that is, whilst anything is in the process of being moved and made, there is a “before” and also an “after,” because what is in the beginning of movement or in its term is not in “being moved.” But creation is neither movement nor the term of movement, as was said above (I:45:3). Hence a thing is created in such a way that it was not being created before.

Reply to Objection 3. Nothing is made except as it exists. But nothing exists of time except “now.” Hence time cannot be made except according to some “now”; not because in the first “now” is time, but because from it time begins.

 

[Crusaderbear]

This one…no time before creation.

 

[AveOTheotokos]

And for more info regarding Eternity and God:

Summa, First Part, Question 10. The eternity of God

 

[STT]

There you go “tensing” things up again.

There was no process, no one step to another. The state of “before” creation did not exist for a single moment of time. There is no prior state before.

So you only have beginning, present, and future? What did exist at the beginning?

 

[Wesrock]

So you only have beginning, present, and future? What did exist at the beginning?

What exactly existed at the beginning is a question of science and not one that can be resolved by natural philosophy, I believe, apart from knowing that there is God.

 

[STT]

I put forth the following question for pondering: where or within what does “time” exist?

Also, here is a link to the Catholic Encyclopedia article on time:

newadvent.org/cathen/14726a.htm

Time is elementary.Therefore it is not within something. Any physical theory needs time in order to show that the theory is successful in predicting future. We then deduce that the theory is correct. Therefore a physical theory which claims time as a emergent entity does not exist.

 

[AveOTheotokos]

Time is elementary.Therefore it is not within something. Any physical theory needs time in order to show that the theory is successful in predicting future then deduce that the theory is correct. Therefore any theory which claims time as a emergent being is wrong.

Is this a law, or a theory?

 

[STT]

What exactly existed at the beginning is a question of science and not one that can be resolved by natural philosophy, I believe, apart from knowing that there is God.

So do you agree that there was “no thing”, including time, before the beginning? How could you embed the act of creation within the model?

 

[STT]

Is this a law, or a theory?

I think it is a law.

 

[AveOTheotokos]

So do you agree that there was “no thing”, including time, before the beginning? How could you embed the act of creation within the model?

Eternity exists outside of “time” or the concept of “beginning”

 

[STT]

Eternity exists outside of “time” or the concept of “beginning”

Time is not space that something could exist outside of it.

 

[AveOTheotokos]

I think it is a law.

Your thinking it is a law does not render it so. Law requires a proof.

This article discusses time and it’s various complexities in regards to physics:

A Debate Over the Physics of Time

I particularly enjoy this quote from Einstein:

“Now he has departed this strange world a little ahead of me,” Einstein wrote of his friend’s passing. “That signifies nothing. For us believing physicists, the distinction between past, present and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion.”

 

[Wesrock]

So do you agree that there was “no thing”, including time, before the beginning?

Yes.

How could you embed the act of creation within the model?

What’s your model? It’s my thinking that the only thing that could be modeled is creation. Or put another way, the scale and scope of any model is limited to creation. Hence the scale and scope is limited to creation. Creation isn’t “embedded” in a model greater than itself.

 

[AveOTheotokos]

Time is not space that something could exist outside of it.

Based on some theories. There are many theories regarding time, even some that it doesn’t exist at all or is a false dimension. A few more interesting perspectives:

Did Time Exist Before the Big Bang?

Does Time Exist, or Is It Merely the Numerical Order of Change?

The nature of time, what it is, where it is, and how it exists is far from a resolved issue.

 

[STT]

Your thinking it is a law does not render it so. Law requires a proof.

The proof is there. You just need to contemplate a little about my statment.

This article discusses time and it’s various complexities in regards to physics:

A Debate Over the Physics of Time

The block universe is absurd since it was not shown any deviation from laws of nature yet.

I particularly enjoy this quote from Einstein:

He was wrong since without time any change in our experience was impossible.

 

[STT]

Yes.

What’s your model? It’s my thinking that the only thing that could be modeled is creation. Or put another way, the scale and scope of any model is limited to creation. Hence the scale and scope is limited to creation. Creation isn’t “embedded” in a model greater than itself.

That is your model. You believe in creation. You also agree that there was “no thing” before the beginning. So lets see what is your model given these two facts.

 

[lmelahn]

Do you believe in two state of existence: (1) Nothing (before act of creation) and (2) Universe (after act of creation)? The act of creation by definition is a process of bringing something to existence from nothing therefore we are dealing with a before (nothing) and after (universe).

“Nothing,” strictly speaking,*is not a state of creation—it is nothing.

Also, creation is not a process; it is a single act.

Thus, the created universe depends radically its Creator, but that dependence on Him is not necessarily temporal. As I mentioned, there is nothing prevent God from creating a universe that has lasted an infinitely long time.