Dinner table convversations

[hilarycotter]

We have 5 kids and my wife and I are in our 50’s. We both are experiencing problems with deteriorating hearing – nothing abnormal - the typical age related hearing loss. However cross talk is agitating for us.

To keep dinner table conversations peaceful and respectful I have requested and normally enforce, that if someone has something to say they have to raise their hand.
This leads to some children having their hands raised for several minutes while my wife, or myself or another child pontificates. By the time this child with the hand raised is called upon, they frequently have forgotten what they wanted to say.

My wife hates the hand raising idea as she feels that our children are not learning the natural ebb and flow of conversations. And I agree with her, but I feel that some members of our family are disrespectful of other people’s opinions and to preserver peace we need to do this.

Let’s give an example:

During dinner, there can be innumerable “please pass the peas” (which is ok), “Gabriel called me big nose” (which is not ok and the child is warned and sometimes assigned lines, sometime both children are assigned lines), but where it really gets out of hand is with the bickering and especially when we start talking about controversial topics.

Today the topic of Evolution came up. My son said 1) Adam and Eve is a fable, 2) the world, plants and animals got here by evolution, but God created humans, 3) the monkeys descended from us, 4) we don’t need to believe in creation at all.

He said this things as one continuous stream, and I presented the Church’s opinion as best as I could on these matters, all the while getting interrupted by him, and “please pass the peas” and some bickering.

I kept telling him that we needed to be respectful of each others opinions and he would have his turn. He did but he then called me a “gatekeeper.” If you follow Alex Jones you will understand how loaded this term is and that it really is a thought stopping cliché.

I then started to explain what the term “Gatekeeper” means and he kept interrupting me (3 times - I kept count), saying that he had heard this before 1000’s of times – I am pretty sure this is the first time I have told him that.

I then stopped and said “Ok, what do I mean.” Naturally he could not respond.

However, now I have gotten this off my chest – how do most families handle dinner table conversation, and maintain order and respectfulness without getting agitated and at the same time teach their children basic conversation skills? Do we need to maintain the hand raising?

I would appreciate any insights.

 

[EasterJoy]

I have two children with hearing loss. By all means, if you have not been to an audiologist, I would suggest you do so. Modern hearing aids do not just amplify sounds, but preferentially amplify certain pitches and sounds coming from a particular distance. It makes conversation much easier.

Having said that, you don’t seem to be describing a hearing issue. Conversational turn-taking is a social skill, and it takes practice.

Your wife might be much more amenable to hand-raising for those who want the butter or the salt, with an accepted sign to let others know what is wanted. At a large table, this allows the food to be distributed without interrupting the table conversation.

Our rule was that the dinner table is a special place, and manners require that the place and time be respected. There is no bickering. There is no getting up and running around. The worst that can be said of the food is, “You don’t need to make this again for my sake” or “This isn’t agreeing with me.” You do not *ever *say, “This is yucky” unless the food is literally rotted or should not be eaten for some other safety reason. In any event, the cook and the other help are always thanked for their efforts, and where praise is possible, it ought to be rendered.

I think I’d make this about teaching your children how adults have table conversation and how to make yourself welcome in polite company. Require them to act as if you had company, and when you have company they will be ready to charm your visitors with their grasp of how to be a good conversational partner. If there is a violation of the rules, try to correct it as you would if you had company present, whether that means shooting the child a look, correcting the child with a suggestion about what they ought to be saying instead, or calmly but firmly letting them know that they are being inappropriate and need to excuse themselves until further notice, lest you be forced to leave your place and help them in the suggested direction.

If you teach your children how to act at a dinner table with company, you are going to find that you get reports about how nice it was to sit next to them at a dinner. Very few young people practice the skills of dinner conversation, and those who know these rules and feel confident about their abilities stand out in a positive way.

As a side note, I don’t think too much of tattling. It is a bad habit that cannot be carried into adulthood. It is better to learn strategies for dealing with bullies that will still serve you later in life. If Gabriel calls you a name, you need to learn how to cope with that on your own, which you can learn to do without disrupting the entire table in an effort to get someone else to deal with Gabriel. You deal with Gabriel. I say this having been the victim of this kind of name-calling. It didn’t end because I tattled enough to get it turned off. It ended because I finally learned to say, “Why, yes, my nose is enormous. I do not know how you can stand being around me, you poor thing. It must be so difficult for you. If you don’t mind, though, I am trying to hear what Dad is saying.” Of course, just ignoring him and starting at “…if you don’t mind” also works, but if a person with a small nose says this to someone who insulted them, the insulting person looks ridiculous. If the person being insulted is a real Cyrano de Bergerac, the insulting person just looks like an impotent bully who is failing to provoke his target because his target is too gracious to ruin the dinner by rising up and taking the bait.

 

[maryjk]

Would you mind giving your children’s approximate ages?

 

[hilarycotter]

Thanks MaryJK - 10 yo dd, 12 yo ds, 13 yo ds, 15 yo ds, 16 yo dd.

 

[hilarycotter]

Thanks Easter joy. I like a lot of what you say.

Unfortunately one of the sons is a bit of a bully, and I feel I need to be a referee, and try to prevent this behavior. The target of most of his bullying is his younger brother who has mild Aspergers.

 

[maryjk]

Thanks MaryJK - 10 yo dd, 12 yo ds, 13 yo ds, 15 yo ds, 16 yo dd.

The reason I asked is because we used to be sent to our room without dinner if we were obnoxious too many times. (I am almost 50, but I still remember it.)

My parents would have never done this to a small child. And to me, your 10 year old and maybe even your 12 year old qualifies as being too young.

But the older ones don’t. In fact, you should be able to enlist your older children in being models of proper behavior.

 

[hilarycotter]

Thanks MaryJK - I think I described the problem poorly.

The issue is that some conversations become disruptive as some of the children will start interrupting someone else who is talking.

This is the behavior we are trying to address. How do we stop the interruptions? We as parents try to let the other person have his/her turn and then we reply. However, the other child keeps interrupting when we have our turn. Some of the points made by the child are multi-faceted and when we reply to them our replies can be longer than the child’s response and they get agitated and want to jump in with their point of view.

When adults talk they seem to be able to handle this, sometimes it gets heated but adults seem to know how to discuss issues civilly.

I want to know how most families handle this with teenagers. I can’t see sending the child to his/her room being appropriate.

 

[maryjk]

Thanks MaryJK - I think I described the problem poorly.

I was thinking more along the lines of “your nose is fat.”

“That you for that information, now you can go to your room. Goodbye.”

 

[hilarycotter]

Thanks MarkJK, I understand you now.

I need to think about what you say. It makes a lot of sense.

Hilary

 

[crystal_waters]

If theres certain topics that start off bickering and arguements( e.g like the conversation about evolution verses God creating the world) then dont have those conversations at the dinner table…save them for another time…after all nobody wants to be listening to arguements while trying to eat…its not pleasant for anybody…

Also teach the kids to be respectfull of you at the table and not to answer back…and that answering back or misbehaving ( annoying or hitting a sibling )has consequences…the consequences could be a deduction from their allowance, or confiscating a favourite game for a set period of time, grounding them so they cant go out, sending them to bed early, etc…

How you teach them to act at home is how they will act around others…and when they are round others they represent you…

 

[EasterJoy]

Thanks Easter joy. I like a lot of what you say.

Unfortunately one of the sons is a bit of a bully, and I feel I need to be a referee, and try to prevent this behavior. The target of most of his bullying is his younger brother who has mild Aspergers.

I would give the would-be bully permanent seating next to you. You can sit anyone else anywhere else you like, but you might want his target on your other hand. If the aggressive one attacks someone, you will be in a position to stop the conversation, and educate the bully on where he erred. “Our family does not make personal comments about other people. I do not care if it is true or not. It is rude, it intends to make people feel bad about their weaknesses, and you will not do it, particularly not right in front of me and at my dinner table. You are a strong young man, and people will look at you as a model. Be better than that. If strong people like you do not protect the weak, who will? If no one protects the weak, what kind of world will we have? If you don’t think what you will be as a man starts now, think again.” When his behavior becomes more of a model, make it a point to move him, letting him know that you are doing it so that he can be one who influences how things go in a good way. He wants to be an influence, after all, we know that. Direct that desire in a good way, because you won’t stamp it out.

Instruct the target how to handle this better, as well. “You will run into people who will try to upset you with rude remarks or who mean no harm but talk without thinking. There is nothing to do about it but rise above it. When Our Lord said to turn the other cheek, he did not say to fall on the ground and howl in pain. Take the third way: refuse to let the rude acts of others change how you act yourself.” If there are particular strategies that someone with Asperger’s needs to use, such as taking ten breaths or whatever the professionals who help you with his condition say to do, help him to practice doing that. This way, he’ll have practice and feel confident he knows what to do, for the times when you are not there to coach him.

 

[EasterJoy]

Thanks MaryJK - I think I described the problem poorly.

The issue is that some conversations become disruptive as some of the children will start interrupting someone else who is talking.

This is the behavior we are trying to address. How do we stop the interruptions? We as parents try to let the other person have his/her turn and then we reply. However, the other child keeps interrupting when we have our turn. Some of the points made by the child are multi-faceted and when we reply to them our replies can be longer than the child’s response and they get agitated and want to jump in with their point of view.

When adults talk they seem to be able to handle this, sometimes it gets heated but adults seem to know how to discuss issues civilly.

I want to know how most families handle this with teenagers. I can’t see sending the child to his/her room being appropriate.

If you have ever watched a talk show featuring political rivals, you know how bad this problem can be, even for adults. If adult political discussions have to have moderators, that ought to tell you something, after all! Your dinner table will need a moderator until your children are much older than they are, and around election time, probably even when they are grown.

As for teens, they are going to try strategies that won’t work, but some need to give them a lot of trials before abandoning them. If you can pluck out what they did was good in your correction, that is not a bad strategy: John, we want to hear what you have to say, too, but you’re going to have to wait your turn or else sit out of the conversation. If we don’t take turns, no one is going to be heard. Now, Mary–what were you saying?

You don’t have to send them to their room if they ignore moderation. Away from the table is sufficient. Asking them to come with you to the kitchen for a private chat can help. (This helps them save face, because you are treating them more like a wayward adult would be treated.) Expain that you want them at the table but that you have to insist on polite company at your table from everyone. People who don’t learn table manners and the rules of polite conversation are at a great handicap in this world, and you’re not going to send them out into the world unequipped. What they do with the tool box you give them when they grow up will be their business. So, come to the table and behave like adults do, because I don’t want to have to send you to your room as if you were 10.

IOW, teens want to be seen as what they are becoming, which is adult children. Mentor them more and more as you would a younger co-worker, and less like a child. It works better, because it shows you appreciate that they are becoming adults.

 

[EasterJoy]

If theres certain topics that start off bickering and arguements( e.g like the conversation about evolution verses God creating the world) then dont have those conversations at the dinner table…save them for another time…after all nobody wants to be listening to arguements while trying to eat…its not pleasant for anybody…

Also teach the kids to be respectfull of you at the table and not to answer back…and that answering back or misbehaving ( annoying or hitting a sibling )has consequences…the consequences could be a deduction from their allowance, or confiscating a favourite game for a set period of time, grounding them so they cant go out, sending them to bed early, etc…

How you teach them to act at home is how they will act around others…and when they are round others they represent you…

Yes–just as adult groups establish taboo subjects because the group doesn’t handle them well. Good advice.

 

[EasterJoy]

BTW, it is good for the long-winded to remember that it is better to make short points, and when a lecture is needed to make a note of that but to postpone the lecture for another time.

I grew up in a big family, and there is a big temptation to hold the floor for a long time once you get it!

 

[7armyrugrats]

I also have hearing loss, and five of my kids are right around your kids’ ages. Dinner time can be a loud distraction, especially with teens. My younger kids seem to do better than the older ones most nights because they are not as opinionated yet. Some things that have helped at our house:

1. we no longer pass the food around the table. It never seemed to work well for our family. With at least 8 people, and usually 10 or more, at the table each night it was just too crowded and complicated. Too much asking for things, too many messes, just generally chaotic. We now keep all the food in the kitchen. I make the plates and one child each nights carries the plates as I make them to the rest of the family (who are already sitting at the table waiting). If someone wants seconds, they may quietly excuse themselves, carry their plate to the kitchen and get more.
2. on nights that dad is home, he controls the conversation. He starts out by leading us in prayer abd then starts asking some random question to one of the kids. Usually it is some nonsense ridiculous topic, but always something that engages them and somewhat excites them. He makes sure he to move from kid to kid, sometimes with the same topic, sometimes with something different. This keeps the kids busy (prevents some of the bickering), gives each one individual attention, and ensures that all kids are listening to the conversation. The sillier the better, but if it gets too wild he tones it done with something a little more complicated that requires some thought on the kid’s part.
3. when dad isn’t home, I control things by assigning a topic for discussion. It is always something lighthearted that isn’t likely to spur debate.
4. we have a strict 1 strike and you’re out policy for bullying. Whatever punishment you chose for that, enforce it strictly and swiftly. If kids are rude or manners are poor we remind twice, third time and they are done. We are not mean about it, we just make it happen. Surprisingly we haven’t had problems at the table in a long time, but it took about 2 weeks to rope them in when we were having trouble.
5. we know which kids aggravate each other so we placed each child in an assigned spot. My husband and I sit next to each other with the youngest two, one next to me, one next to him (they are 1 and 6). That way we can feed tge baby, cut meat and refill cups, etc for the 6 yr old. The rest are sitting closest to the person they are least likely to fight with. I’m sure you know that it is easier to prevent trouble than deal with it once it starts. Of course, the kids initially fought the assigned seats. Some if my kids have a love-hate relationship. The sibling they fight with the most is also the one they enjoy the most. But we determined it is best to control the chaos. It has had a double benefit. Not only are there less bickering, but the kids have bonded to all of their siblings instead of grouping up like they used to. We have relaxed the assigned seats now, but in the beginning it was a necessity.
6. each child is assigned a job specific to dinner each night, either set up or clean up. Jobs most be completed and others must thank them for their help.

Good luck. Family dinner is so important, but it is also a nightmare to get it flowing correctly. Once it gets on a good path it really does become the highlight of the day. I know my husband starts thinking about the dinner topic on his way home from work because it is so important to keep it entertaining and civil. When he is gone, he usually leaves me with a list of ideas because his are usually better than mine.

 

[CradleJourney]

However, now I have gotten this off my chest – how do most families handle dinner table conversation, and maintain order and respectfulness without getting agitated and at the same time teach their children basic conversation skills? Do we need to maintain the hand raising?

I would appreciate any insights.

We have six kids total - 4 still eating at the table with us (other 2 moved off to college/marriage).

How it works here:

Maintain order by having grown-ups “in charge” but no hand raising. “In charge” means making sure everyone gets a chance to speak and no one gets interrupted. Pontificating - by adult or child is not allowed at the table. Lectures and detailed information are for one (or two) on one away from the table. If a subject needing full debate comes up, it is shelved until after dinner (while hand-washing dishes is a perfect time for prolonged debate since you have one person washing / one drying). This is done by one of the adults, declaring that the topic shall be discussed later, then changing the subject.

Table conversation should be appropriate (nothing gross or upsetting), polite (including your example of “please pass the peas”), and inclusive (thus short give and take vs. prolonged discussion between just two people). Adults help show this by asking questions that include all in the talk - such as “Hmmm…that’s interesting … so A, what do you think?” “Oh, interesting - how about you B?”, etc.

Table time is family time - it’s a chance for everyone to share what’s going on that’s important in their world today - be it a new classroom pet, a strangely shaped cloud, the importance of proper cutting angles when building a truss, traffic on the interstate or what a relative posted about on facebook. By keeping it light and brief, everyone has a chance to share and be heard without interrupting or having multiple conversations going on at once - and is great practice for future group outings with their friends, co-workers, or in-laws.

Just how we do it.

 

[CradleJourney]

The issue is that some conversations become disruptive as some of the children will start interrupting someone else who is talking.

As the adults/moderators, we have use a hand gesture to the child who starts to interrupt indicating “wait a moment”. Then (if needed) - say to the speaker if they continue on for any length “Excuse me, but I think ____________ has something they want to add.”

Some of the points made by the child are multi-faceted and when we reply to them our replies can be longer than the child’s response and they get agitated and want to jump in with their point of view.

Keep your replies brief - and if need be, general - “Really. I don’t think you quite understand our point of view (or the church’s teaching or whatever) on that - how about we pause this conversation for now and discuss it more in depth later” (Then do so.)

I want to know how most families handle this with teenagers. I can’t see sending the child to his/her room being appropriate.

Debates and discussions are part of what makes having a teenager more fun, imo. It’s great to actually be able to talk and examine things in a more mature manner. Just not at the table If a teen however, insists on being rude, obnoxious, insulting, or disrespectful (and continuing a topic you have currently declared as “closed” would fall into that category, imo), then yes - I’d send them directly to their room (or at least away from the table), wait for dinner to finish, then go and speak to them both about how they need to behave and whatever it was that was on their minds in the first place.

 

[jmcrae]

However, now I have gotten this off my chest – how do most families handle dinner table conversation, and maintain order and respectfulness without getting agitated and at the same time teach their children basic conversation skills? Do we need to maintain the hand raising?

I would appreciate any insights.

A rule we have at our house is that we don’t argue at the dinner table, and children don’t argue with adults under any circumstances. A child may express his opinion about something, but if an adult contradicts him, he will either keep silent or he will say, “I hadn’t considered that; thank you for telling me,” and then the adult will change the subject.

We have places and times for particular discussions; the dinner table is not a place for holding debates.

 

[mommy_k]

If they continued with nonsense, then dinner is over for them I would give a warning, and if they did it again, they leave the table.No raising hands. Either talk nice, take turns, be polite, or have a consequence. If they called anyone an unkind name, I would take their cellphone, or video games or tv away for a day or so and have them apoplogize for rudeness.

Nothing fancy here. To talk about some mature topics in front of younger kids at the dinner table is unacceptable too.

 

[hilarycotter]

Thanks everyone for your insights. I think the real problem is that teenager X raises an interesting issue and is excited about saying his point of view. I hear his points of view and then pontificate for 10-20 mintues ( on his points, and he is sitting there getting more and more agitated. I get agitated enough when listening to his points and cataloging them.

You are quite right - a short reply - and then a later discussion with the older 3 after dinner is most appropriate.

And thanks all for your views on bullying and learning self defense strategies.