Dinosaurs and the Bible

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aragonjohn1 said:
Shalom : )

Also maybe the creature in job described as “a flying serpent with fire in its belly” may be related to the dinosaur siteing in one of my earlier links about the dinosaur seen by 700+ people and even photographed a few times. Also Marco polo saw and described at least two different types of domesticated dinosaurs the triceratops and the diplodocus(?)
He also rode one!

Also what about the dinosaur bones with blood and muscle found intact?
Since blood in that area can only survive for a short time (tops 2000 - 3000 years) I could prove that dinosaurs could have been seen by the biblical people’s.
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There are no doubt both mythical and real dinosaurs called dragons in both the Bible and in secular or religious literature of the time. I can’t post huge modern day depictions of dinosaurs like the Lost Wanderer did but there are several web sites to visit and draw your own conclusions.

St. John Damacene, a church father wrote about 725 AD that Dragons were not “ghosts” or devils. There were big and small ones, eyes were big and goldish, some had beards, like a goat, horn at back of its head and they do not emit poison. They are animals - serpents borne of other serpents - big and fat and thick as a big log [obviously NOT a snake in modern day expression] some 30 cubits long.

From the book “Dire Dragons” here are some of the names of the dragons depicted in Francois I of France’s chateaus from the early 16th century. The buildings are still standing that’s why the author was able to take photos and identify the critters: MASSOSPONDYLUS - Jurassic, PLATEOSAURUS - Jurassic; HYPSILOPHODON - Jurassic; MAIASAURA PEEBLESORUM - interesting space-age story about this one from the Cretacesous formation of Montana @ dsc.discovery.com/dinosaurs/maiasaura-peeblesorum.html
and ALBERTOSAURUS - Cretaceous formation in Canada - perhaps a kissing cousin of the T-rex that was found with residual soft tissue, collagen and blood cells where none should be after a few 1000 years as Aragonjohn1 noted OR the Acocanthosaurus from Texas for which there are five (5) radiocarbon dates ranging from 23,500 to 30,000 radiocarbon years from AMC-14 labs of the University of Arizona, University of Georgia and a New Zealand AMS lab - rather good concordance for three labs from various bones and bone fractions over many years.
 
Robertanthony said:
There is God and there is the universe and all that it contains
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I do not make that distinction. In a philosophical/theological discussion I define “the universe” as “all that exists”. Hence I do not accept your attempt to separate God form the universe. Since the universe is “all that exists”, and God exists then God is part of the universe rather then separate from it.
God is the creator, all that is encompassed in the universe is God’s creation. God created it from naught, set it in motion, gave it laws to obey. God is apart from that, supranatural, supernatural, call it what you will.
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That is standard in all three Abrahamic religions. I am Buddhist. You cannot expect me to just accept Abrahamic theology without argument.
The universe needed someone to create it ex nihilo, God didn’t. There’s an awe-inspiring mystery for you.
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Not with my definition of “the universe”; by definition there is nothing that exists outside “all that exists”. While I have no problem with the material STEM universe having a cause, there is no particular reason for that cause to be a personal omnipotent God. For example, while the cause may have the power to create one universe, how can you be sure that it has the power to create two or three universes? Such a limited cause would not be omnipotent. You are assuming a great deal here, without offering any form of proof.

rossum
 
rossum said:
Not “all” the Church Fathers. Saint Augustine accepted an instantaneous creation, not a six day creation. Origen thought that a literal interpretation of Genesis was foolish:
“What intelligent person will suppose that there was a first, a second and a third day, that there was evening and morning without the existence of the sun and moon and stars? Or that there was a first day without a sky?”
  • as quoted in the PhilocaliaHow many of those Church Fathers and Popes would accept a date of 22,000 ybp? If they are the authorities you are relying on, then why are you pushing dates that they would reject? Please can we have a little consistency here.
So you want to have your cake and eat it. That is foolish, and will get you precisely nowhere in any argument about science. If the figures are correct, then they have to be accepted as correct in all circumstances. If they are incorrect, then we cannot base any reliable conclusions on them. You are trying to have it both ways; such equivocating will not win you any arguments against any sort of real opposition.

If this is the best that your creationist sources can come up with then you really need to find better sources.

Which is precisely my point about the kitchen scales. All you are measuring is the accuracy of the lab equipment, not the age of the sample. Instead, knowledgeable scientists use other radiometric dating methods, not involving C-14, where there will be atoms left in the bones. Methods like Rb-Sr, Ar-Ar etc.

It is one of the signs of creationist pseudoscience that they try to use C-14 dating on old samples. They avoid other dating methods like the plague, because those methods won’t give them the sort of results they want. Even then they trumpet the C-14 dates as accurate one minute, and as incorrect the next.

rossum
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St Augustine accepted a six day creation. He thought that prime matter had the potential and was thought of immediately by God.
 
buffalo said:
Dragons are the old name for donosaurs.
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Take youselves back to the days before Adam, when there were no men in the world, and all the animals were vegetarian. Picture the contented donosaurs placidly eating donuts from the donut trees as they wandered through the newly made world…

😃

rossum
 
As a Catholic I am embarrassed that this thread is even here. To all lurkers- you aren’t likely to meet Catholics in real life who believe some of the views you are reading here- I never have.

This is not the face of Catholicism.
 
Philipp said:
Got to go - see you later. I’ll be back with more ID’s for these critters from other countries and a neat quote from the Catholic Douay-Rheims Bible. But if you want to some great depictions of dragons alias dinosaurs right now go to www.dinosaursandhumans.org This researcher has spent 20 years traveling world-wide researching depictions - go to research resultss and enjoy.🙂 Before the mythological folks start ranting about this guy being a no-good dumb creationist I’ll save them the trouble. He’s a pastor of a church with a wife and family and a yen for “Truth in Science” and wrote the book, “Secrets of the Ica Stones” of Peru. God bless him for his careful research. 👍
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Your link leads to a blank page on GoDaddy.
 
ringil said:
As a Catholic I am embarrassed that this thread is even here. To all lurkers- you aren’t likely to meet Catholics in real life who believe some of the views you are reading here- I never have.

This is not the face of Catholicism.
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What are you embarrassed about? Those who are for or against dinosaurs in the Bible? I have not read in any Catholic publication that we are required to believe there are no dinosaurs in the Bible. The face of Catholicism is fidelity and preaching the Gospel to the whole world.

Peace,
Ed
 
ringil said:
As a Catholic I am embarrassed that this thread is even here. To all lurkers- you aren’t likely to meet Catholics in real life who believe some of the views you are reading here- I never have.

This is not the face of Catholicism.
Click to expand...
Your correct! It’s tough sledding up hill against the prevalent paradigm of origins that tells us we are but accidents of nature and that our ancestors might have been four legged rat like creatures running under the feet of the big dinosaurs 65 M years ago.

But we should all be thankful that it least our faith of almost 2000 years is supported by the latest scientific archaeological discoveries such as “distinct” dinosaur depictions by some of our ancestorss who saw them, C-14 dating of their bones showing that there was great water catastrophe like Christ noted when he was on earth. Also CT scans of compression lines under the impressions of fossil human and dinosaur footprints in Cretaceous strata confirming the originality of these prints - perhaps trying to avoid the rising waters.

You don’t read the above documentations in your local newspapers, in most of your public school districts and even our Catholic shcools and Universtities; that data is NOT allowed to be discussed or ridiculed, but that may be changing at least in some states. The censorship from Academia and their supporting legal groups scaring honest board members and teachers fearful of lawsuits is prevalent througout society. So be thankful for CA allowing this interesting debate. :cool:

The missing link asked for elsewhere dinosaursandman.com/

www.dinosaurc14ages.com & sciencevsevolution.org/Holzschuh.htm

plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0019445 page 8 & 9

creationresearch.net/products/Dire_Dragons_by_Vance_Nelson.html

evidenceweb.net/pdfs/kachina-bridge.pdf dinosaur depicction confirmed

ianjuby.org/delk/ CT scans of footprints as they do dinosaur skeletons in rocks.
 
Philipp said:
Your correct! It’s tough sledding up hill against the prevalent paradigm of origins that tells us we are but accidents of nature and that our ancestors might have been four legged rat like creatures running under the feet of the big dinosaurs 65 M years ago.

But we should all be thankful that it least our faith of almost 2000 years is supported by the latest scientific archaeological discoveries such as “distinct” dinosaur depictions by some of our ancestorss who saw them, C-14 dating of their bones showing that there was great water catastrophe like Christ noted when he was on earth. Also CT scans of compression lines under the impressions of fossil human and dinosaur footprints in Cretaceous strata confirming the originality of these prints - perhaps trying to avoid the rising waters.

You don’t read the above documentations in your local newspapers, in most of your public school districts and even our Catholic shcools and Universtities; that data is NOT allowed to be discussed or ridiculed, but that may be changing at least in some states. The censorship from Academia and their supporting legal groups scaring honest board members and teachers fearful of lawsuits is prevalent througout society. So be thankful for CA allowing this interesting debate. :cool:

The missing link asked for elsewhere dinosaursandman.com/

www.dinosaurc14ages.com & sciencevsevolution.org/Holzschuh.htm

plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0019445 page 8 & 9

creationresearch.net/products/Dire_Dragons_by_Vance_Nelson.html

evidenceweb.net/pdfs/kachina-bridge.pdf dinosaur depicction confirmed

ianjuby.org/delk/ CT scans of footprints as they do dinosaur skeletons in rocks.
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I actually linked to your sources and they are laughable but sad at the same time.

How did you become a YEC? How does this sort of thing happen to a person?
 
ringil said:
I actually linked to your sources and they are laughable but sad at the same time.

How did you become a YEC? How does this sort of thing happen to a person?
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One is honest in searching for the truth. That’s how.
 
ringil said:
As a Catholic I am embarrassed that this thread is even here. To all lurkers- you aren’t likely to meet Catholics in real life who believe some of the views you are reading here- I never have.

This is not the face of Catholicism.
Click to expand...
What are you embarrassed about, only YEC or is there something else? What do you yourself believe regarding dinosaurs and the Bible? The Church allows a great deal of leeway as to what we can believe happened between the moment God started creating the universe, Adam and Eve, dinosaurs, the chronology of it all, the age of the Earth and so on and so forth. I’m a newbie in all this, I stay away from scoffers (there is at least one in this thread) but I like to hear people’s points of view (as long as they line up with what we as Catholics are bound to believe regarding the origin of the universe and Adam and Eve, essentially, the Church’s guidelines in other words).
 
ringil said:
I actually linked to your sources and they are laughable but sad at the same time.

How did you become a YEC? How does this sort of thing happen to a person?
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How did you become a believer in mythology alias evolution of all life from a common ancestor - a common ancestor for such widely divergent species as insects, trees, man and of course dinosaur? How does this sort of thing happen to a perfect normal human being?

In my case I’m NOT a YEC. As a Catholic I don’t know scientificially how old the earth is but as a Catholic and hands-on research scientist it sure seems to me that the church fathers were correct about the formation of all life forms in-situ - abrupt appearance theory and the earth being essentially created the same week. Why anyone would doubt His words handed to Moses is beyond my understanding. Scripture wasn’t finalized until the fourth century after the persecutions ended so tradition of what the Lord told his apostles has to carry the brunt of what He taught and so what they taught.🤷

In your case I would say that a hankering for mythology from dragons to origins might be a way you landed into that column. I just don’t know what makes peolple do what they do
 
Philipp said:
Suppose those millions and millions of years ago don’t exist? If those eons of time do NOT exist what happens to all the speculative technical papers for the last 150 ears or so?
😃
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Well, that is a problem. If all the genetic material existed at the beginning, and contained all the necessary switches, then it’s just a matter of switches being thrown on schedule.

Peace,
Ed
 
edwest2 said:
Well, that is a problem. If all the genetic material existed at the beginning, and contained all the necessary switches, then it’s just a matter of switches being thrown on schedule.

Peace,
Ed
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IDvolution anyone? God “breathed” the super language of DNA into the “kinds” in the creative act.

“The universe begins to look more like a great thought than a great machine.” Astrophysicist Sir James Jeans
 
Philipp said:
There are no doubt both mythical and real dinosaurs called dragons in both the Bible and in secular or religious literature of the time. I can’t post huge modern day depictions of dinosaurs like the Lost Wanderer did but there are several web sites to visit and draw your own conclusions.

St. John Damacene, a church father wrote about 725 AD that Dragons were not “ghosts” or devils. There were big and small ones, eyes were big and goldish, some had beards, like a goat, horn at back of its head and they do not emit poison. They are animals - serpents borne of other serpents - big and fat and thick as a big log [obviously NOT a snake in modern day expression] some 30 cubits long.

From the book “Dire Dragons” here are some of the names of the dragons depicted in Francois I of France’s chateaus from the early 16th century. The buildings are still standing that’s why the author was able to take photos and identify the critters: MASSOSPONDYLUS - Jurassic, PLATEOSAURUS - Jurassic; HYPSILOPHODON - Jurassic; MAIASAURA PEEBLESORUM - interesting space-age story about this one from the Cretacesous formation of Montana @ dsc.discovery.com/dinosaurs/maiasaura-peeblesorum.html
and ALBERTOSAURUS - Cretaceous formation in Canada - perhaps a kissing cousin of the T-rex that was found with residual soft tissue, collagen and blood cells where none should be after a few 1000 years as Aragonjohn1 noted OR the Acocanthosaurus from Texas for which there are five (5) radiocarbon dates ranging from 23,500 to 30,000 radiocarbon years from AMC-14 labs of the University of Arizona, University of Georgia and a New Zealand AMS lab - rather good concordance for three labs from various bones and bone fractions over many years.

Got to go - see you later. I’ll be back with more ID’s for these critters from other countries and a neat quote from the Catholic Douay-Rheims Bible. But if you want to some great depictions of dragons alias dinosaurs right now go to www.dinosaursandhumans.org This researcher has spent 20 years traveling world-wide researching depictions - go to research resultss and enjoy.🙂 Before the mythological folks start ranting about this guy being a no-good dumb creationist I’ll save them the trouble. He’s a pastor of a church with a wife and family and a yen for “Truth in Science” and wrote the book, “Secrets of the Ica Stones” of Peru. God bless him for his careful research. 👍
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: ) thanks!
 
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