Dinosaurs and the Flood

[DanielJosephBoucher]

Scientists cannot prove they know the age of the Earth.

 

[SPBlitz]

Science doesn’t know that the Earth is that old. Those are just theories that cannot really be proven

Perhaps, but the way scientists have determined the age is documented and based on math and empirical research. I’m an engineer, so perhaps I’m a little biased, but I don’t take claims of ‘it’s just a theory’ too seriously.

Youre not Catholic, so I’m sure the Catholic way of viewing scripture is alien and a bit jarring to you. That’s understandable. But, you did ask for the Catholic solution to the problem - and many (though not all) of us will disagree with your starting premise. Therefore, the idea of the dinosaurs dying in Noah’s flood is a bit of a non-issue for us.

m surprised that as a Catholic, you do not believe in it over new age ideas like Big Bang theory.

Again, the Big Bang Theory was posited by a Catholic priest - Monsignor Lemaitre, so this isn’t an issue for us, and perfectly acceptable for a Catholic to believe in.

 

[CaptainPrudeman]

I’m surprised that as a Catholic, you do not believe in it over new age ideas like Big Bang theory.

Those “new age ideas” have been stated by the Church as perfectly acceptable views, and in the case of the Big Bang Theory, were first theorized by Catholics.

Scientists cannot prove they know the age of the Earth.

Then I suggest you present some evidence to the contrary. Scientific theories are ideas that have gathered so much evidence to support them and have encountered none to disprove them that they are essentially facts. The moment someone provides strong evidence that Earth is not 4.5 billion years old, scientists will discard that theory and revise their hypothesis to include that new evidence.

 

[Wesrock]

The story of Creation tells the story of the origin of the world. I’m surprised that as a Catholic, you do not believe in it over new age ideas like Big Bang theory.

The BBT was proposed by a Catholic priest.

And a non-literal interpretation of a seven day creation was acceptable long before geological or cosmological evidence suggested otherwise.

 

[umamibella]

Do the math yourself.

There is no math in the Bible giving a flood date.

 

[umamibella]

Just add the ages of Adam and his descendants up and go all the way until the generation of Jesus and add 2020.

This is not a date for the flood or a date for anything else.

 

[Xarto]

The dinosaurs died out long before humans existed something like 43 million years ago. Humans have only existed for around 1 million years give or take. I don’t know if the flood was local (but global from their perspective) or actually global.

The Bible was an oral tradition for generations before being written down. It is inspired by God but lots of it cannot be taken literally. So when it says that God created the world in 7 days, it doesn’t mean 7 X 24 hours. That day could have been millennia to us, how would you explain to a primitive people the concept of millions of years (or evolution).

IMO when we look at the world we see laws everywhere (gravity, physics, quantum mechanic etc). It makes more sense that God started the process and let it unfold over millennia and continues to unfold.

 

[Aulef]

Yes, I think so too.

There are extensive studies showing that the flood was global and that it provoked the extinction or near extinction of many animals, including what we call dinosaurs. However, I think some of them survived and their final extinction came later due to the new climatic and atmospheric conditions of the earth and to being hunted.

Regarding the age of the world, we can’t be certain about it based on the Bible. All it gives us is the chronology starting after the Fall, when death and decay as we know came to be. I did the math and I think Original sin happened around 6,500 years ago. Before this, all one can do is guess.

 

[davidharper]

uhhhhh, no, there are no “extensive studies” showing that the flood was global.

 

[davidharper]

John 1:18 ; “no man has ever seen God at any time”.

Exodus 33:11 ; “Moses looked upon the face of God. And God spoke to moses face to face”

which verse is wrong?

 

[davidharper]

everything

 

[Mintaka]

1. Genesis says that the flood was over the whole 'eretz, but 'eretz can mean just the land of Israel and surrounding areas, or larger areas. It’s a mysterious story, when you get down to it.
2. Even if you believe in a literal flood of the entire Earth, it’s pretty clear that humans and dinosaurs are not contemporaries at any point. The mammals got bigger and more complicated after the dinosaurs died out. Before the dinosaurs died out, pretty much all mammals were critters about the size of mice, living that kind of lifestyle.
3. Everything shows the dinosaurs getting wiped out by various disasters associated with an asteroid hitting Earth. (There is one area up in the Western states that seems to show some kind of water damage killing dinosaurs, but it was pretty localized.)
4. There is geological evidence that there have been all sorts of big floods in all sorts of places, but they didn’t happen all at the same time! For example, the Mediterranean Sea used to be a dry plain. Sometime back in the Pleistocene, something happened in the Gibraltar area and the Atlantic flooded in. It probably seemed pretty terrible at the time, if you were a Pleistocene human. But the Mediterranean Sea made a lot of human history and prepared for the coming of Jesus and the birth of Christianity.

Much much later, you see things happening like the flooding of Doggerland, the great land bridge between Europe and Britain. Doggerland is how animals got to England that never got to Ireland, like snakes. But Doggerland didn’t flood until 6500 BC or so, which is well into Neolithic times. There were international trade networks by then. It must have been scary to hear about the flooding of Doggerland, whether it was gradual or sudden.

But since Britain is an island, there are always bits of it getting flooded or getting higher up, or silt building up and making new land where the ocean used to be. A lot of historic English port towns are miles from the sea, these days.

So let’s not just toss around talk about floods casually. It’s a big subject.

 

[Mintaka]

@davidharper

The whole point of the passage of John you are quoting is that God the Father is hidden, whereas God the Son, the Logos, is constantly showing up.

Before the Son became incarnate, He showed Himself to His people in many forms (which is called a “theophany”). His most humanlike theophanies were shown to Moses and to Daniel (to whom He appeared “like a son of man”). When He became Man, He showed His face to everyone.

John 6:45-46 –
“It is written in the prophets, “And they shall all be taught by God.” [Is. 54:13] Everyone that has heard of the Father, and has learned, comes to me. Not that anyone has seen the Father except Him who is of God; He has seen the Father.”

 

[Ridgerunner]

Even if you believe in a literal flood of the entire Earth, it’s pretty clear that humans and dinosaurs are not contemporaries at any point.

There is really no reason to expect that they would be, or that dinosaurs were killed by the flood.

 

[davidharper]

In fact the flood story is a relatively late version of a much older pagan flood myth. The story was current in the ancient world (Mesopotamia), as early as 2200 b.c. or over a thousand years before Genesis was written. Modern scholars believe the story may have been inspired by an actual flood event which took place approx. 3500b.c. - 2500b.c. in mesopotamia.
It was a natural, local flood event, which may have involved all of the fertile crescent at that time. Floods were commonplace in mesopotamia but this particular flood may have been worse than others. It made such a profound impression on the ancients that they wove this excellent story around it. This story was part of the classical literature of the ancient world for a thousand years. The Sumerian version was entitled “The epic of Gilgamesh”. This story reads, nearly word-for-word, exactly the same as the flood myth which is recorded in Genesis.

 

[Ridgerunner]

There are any number of versions of preceding “flood narratives”, and nearly every civilization had one. There is no particular reason to identify it with any particular version. The pervasiveness of the story, however, lends it a certain degree of credence, since the various versions are far more consistent with each other than are, say, creation narratives.

It’s certainly possible that the story had a far more ancient origin than any of the known versions, all of which might have derived from a catastrophic original about which we know nothing. As a minor example, we do know that glaciers melted well within the time man walked the earth, and we know there were outflows from that which were far greater than any floods in historic times. Mini versions can be observed in the mighty collapses and outflows from the Icelandic glaciers. Imagine such a thing continent-wide and miles high. And we know they were at least hemispheric if not worldwide.

I’m not saying that’s the origin, but I absolutely believe we don’t really know the time, place or event giving the origin of the narrative.

 

[billsherman]

I’m not saying that’s the origin, but I absolutely believe we don’t really know the time, place or event giving the origin of the narrative.

I suspect you are right that these flood narratives have their origins in the melting glaciers of the last ice age. There is certainly geological evidence for region floods of catastrophic size in many places. That is, to me, the most plausible answer for the commonality of these flood stories that stem from pre-historic eras.

Incidentally, to earlier posters, I’ve yet to encounter a Jewish person who thinks the OT (the Torah specifically) is literal. I’m sure those people are out there, but I don’t know any. Biblical literalism is a relatively recent phenomenon as I understand it.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I’m not a biblical literalist by any means, but I do think we have to be very careful about attributing biblical event to mythology. I’m no biblical expert, but I do recall reading that in the 19th Century the biblical creation story was relegated to myth because (as science assured all) there could not have been light before the sun and stars were created. More recently, it is realized that there would have been radiation all over the spectrum resulting from the Big Bang, including visible light.

So, caution is always in order before we assume our modern knowledge is superior to ancient narratives.

 

[Anrakyr]

The Bible also infers the earth is flat (lest in function).
Language like “the sun and moon stood still.”

We’ve been to space so clearly the language is to make the point time dilated or something. Earth is what moves relatively speaking.

 

[phil19034]

1. let’s define dinosaurs. One can make the argument that alligators, crocodiles, iguanas, Komodo dragons, etc. are all surviving “dinosaurs.” At least, they surely look like they could have coexisted with dinos.
2. There are ancient sculptures of animals that look very similar to dinosaurs. One in particular looks like a stegosaurus & another looks like a man riding a triceratops.
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So is it likely that SOME smaller dinosaur species survived the event that killed the dinos? OF COURSE, we because we know that not every animal was killed. The smaller mammals & smaller dinos (aka reptiles) did survive. And science also says that birds (not just reptiles) are relatives of the dinos.

Therefore, my personally opinion is this:

1. the vast majority of the Dinos were wiped out BEFORE God created man. There are many POSSIBLE reasons why God may have purposely done this. Two of which are to provide us with petroleum & to teach us (when were were ready) about killer asteroids.
2. I think it is POSSIBLE that some smaller (not large) dino species may have been killed during the flood, just as I believe there may have been some smaller dino species on Earth just a few hundred years ago. HOWEVER, the large dinos were not around when man was around. There simply isn’t any evidence of this.

Remember, the 7 Days of Creation were NOT human days. They are “God Days.” When we have a universe that is several billion years old (not to mention the possible greater age of a multiverse) & an eternal God; several million Earth years could easily be one “day” for God.

In closing, do I think it’s possible that some smaller dinos might have lived with humans upto and even after the flood, yes. Do I think the larger dinos we all think of co-existed with humans? No.

I hope this helps.

God Bless