Diocese of Gaylord

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

And now, St. Augustine, Florida has joined the disobedient ranks. The bishop there has announced that 50 must be registered in a parish and request this, and that otherwise a pastor may not do it.

Please enlighten us as to how this is being “disobedient”.

It has not taken effect yet, not for a couple of weeks yet.

The MP states that a priest is free to celebrate the extraordinary form privately without the need of approval. Article 5 states…

	Art. 5. § 1 In parishes, where there  		is a stable group of faithful who adhere to the earlier liturgical  		tradition, the pastor should willingly accept their requests to  		celebrate the Mass according to the rite of the Roman Missal published  		in 1962, and ensure that the welfare of these faithful harmonises with  		the ordinary pastoral care of the parish, under the guidance of the  		bishop in accordance with canon 392, avoiding discord and favouring the  		unity of the whole Church.

Yet the MP does not define in any way what a “stable group of faithful” is. So until such a time as the Vatican rolls out some instructions that cover this I believe the Bishops are fully within their authority to set guidelines such as this.

After all, the MP tells one how to appeal if they feel the Bishops are not doing what is required by it.

 

[THurifer2]

Yet the MP does not define in any way what a “stable group of faithful” is. So until such a time as the Vatican rolls out some instructions that cover this I believe the Bishops are fully within their authority to set guidelines such as this.

Would a group of 10 of the same people showing up for 7 AM Rosary every day for 20 years be considered a stable group? If they are not a stable group then what are they? What does stable mean? Is it a measure of quantity? Is it a measure of consistency?

 

[THurifer2]

And now, St. Augustine, Florida has joined the disobedient ranks. The bishop there has announced that 50 must be registered in a parish and request this, and that otherwise a pastor may not do it.

I wonder how many Novus Ordo Masses have and attendance of less than 50 in his diocese?

 

[puzzleannie]

It was a traditionally-shaped church building with a long nave and a short transept at the front. The pews had been ripped up and placed lengthwise in the nave on either side of the main aisle, so the parishioners could look at each other like spectators in a football stadium. The kneelers had been removed.

The baptistry was at one end, right inside the main doors, so you literally had to step around it to get into the building; the holy water fonts had been removed, so I’m assuming they were expecting you to use the baptistry as a holy water font. The altar had been relocated to the center of the main aisle. It was really too big to fit in that space, so they had hacked up some of the pews around it to make space to walk around it.
.

this arrangment of pew actually is one approved option (with kneelers) but for a monastery or other religious community, and in a church designed for choir style worship (as is done in monasteries to facilitate chanting the office etc).

the placement of the baptismal font is also historically and liturgically correct.

However the overriding principle is that a renovation, repair, retro-refit of a church should begin by respecting its original architectural style and retain it, simply repairing and refurbishing what needs it.

this however is entire off topic, as are 90% of the posts here. a specific claim was made against the

 

[puzzleannie]

It was a traditionally-shaped church building with a long nave and a short transept at the front. The pews had been ripped up and placed lengthwise in the nave on either side of the main aisle, so the parishioners could look at each other like spectators in a football stadium. The kneelers had been removed.

The baptistry was at one end, right inside the main doors, so you literally had to step around it to get into the building; the holy water fonts had been removed, so I’m assuming they were expecting you to use the baptistry as a holy water font. The altar had been relocated to the center of the main aisle. It was really too big to fit in that space, so they had hacked up some of the pews around it to make space to walk around it.
.

this arrangment of pew actually is one approved option (with kneelers) but for a monastery or other religious community, and in a church designed for choir style worship (as is done in monasteries to facilitate chanting the office etc).

the placement of the baptismal font is also historically and liturgically correct.

However the overriding principle is that a renovation, repair, retro-refit of a church should begin by respecting its original architectural style and retain it, simply repairing and refurbishing what needs it.

this however is entire off topic, as are 90% of the posts here. a specific claim was made against the bishop and diocese of Gaylord Mich, which remains unsubstantiated except by anectodal evidence from a couple of posters. This is not a thread about other dioceses, or about

 

[puzzleannie]

It was a traditionally-shaped church building with a long nave and a short transept at the front. The pews had been ripped up and placed lengthwise in the nave on either side of the main aisle, so the parishioners could look at each other like spectators in a football stadium. The kneelers had been removed.

The baptistry was at one end, right inside the main doors, so you literally had to step around it to get into the building; the holy water fonts had been removed, so I’m assuming they were expecting you to use the baptistry as a holy water font. The altar had been relocated to the center of the main aisle. It was really too big to fit in that space, so they had hacked up some of the pews around it to make space to walk around it.
.

this arrangment of pew actually is one approved option (with kneelers) but for a monastery or other religious community, and in a church designed for choir style worship (as is done in monasteries to facilitate chanting the office etc).

the placement of the baptismal font is also historically and liturgically correct.

However the overriding principle is that a renovation, repair, retro-refit of a church should begin by respecting its original architectural style and retain it, simply repairing and refurbishing what needs it.

this however is entire off topic, as are 90% of the posts here. a specific claim was made against the bishop and diocese of Gaylord Mich, which remains unsubstantiated except by anectodal evidence from a couple of posters. This is not a thread about other dioceses.

 

[KathleenElsie]

Would a group of 10 of the same people showing up for 7 AM Rosary every day for 20 years be considered a stable group? If they are not a stable group then what are they? What does stable mean? Is it a measure of quantity? Is it a measure of consistency?

Remember the story of Sodom and Gomorrah? God would have spared the cities if only ONE could have been found that was faithful.

 

[AlexV]

First of all, “ByzCath”, I thought you were ignoring my posts. Funny you have resurfaced.

But, I’ll tell you how it’s “disobedient”.

First off, the PASTOR has power under the Motu. The bishop in this case has usurped pastoral authority. He has decided, by his own fiat, that 50 is a magic number. As Cardinal Castillon has noted, no such numerical minimum requirement was ever envisaged by the Motu. If 49…or 9…or 159…wanted the Mass in a parish, the pastor can celebrate it…WITHOUT THE BISHOP’S PERMISSION.

 

[KathleenElsie]

First of all, “ByzCath”, I thought you were ignoring my posts. Funny you have resurfaced.

But, I’ll tell you how it’s “disobedient”.

First off, the PASTOR has power under the Motu. The bishop in this case has usurped pastoral authority. He has decided, by his own fiat, that 50 is a magic number. As Cardinal Castillon has noted, no such numerical minimum requirement was ever envisaged by the Motu. If 49…or 9…or 159…wanted the Mass in a parish, the pastor can celebrate it…WITHOUT THE BISHOP’S PERMISSION.

Well just my household is 7. We are a stable group. (well maybe not psychology )

 

[AlexV]

Those who oppose this liturgy at all costs are the divisive ones. Already dioceses are turning into extreme opposites. Some territories are (appropriately) being generous and responding to the obvious intent and charitable mood of the Motu. Omaha has already announced a full-fledged parish for all the 1962 rites. Dublin has expanded to daily Mass and all sacraments. And, then, you have the recalcitrants…Gaylord, where the bishop has acted ultra vires, and St. Augustine, which is just a hair’s breadth or so better than Gaylord.

 

[childofmary1143]

Those who oppose this liturgy at all costs are the divisive ones. Already dioceses are turning into extreme opposites. Some territories are (appropriately) being generous and responding to the obvious intent and charitable mood of the Motu. Omaha has already announced a full-fledged parish for all the 1962 rites. Dublin has expanded to daily Mass and all sacraments. And, then, you have the recalcitrants…Gaylord, where the bishop has acted ultra vires, and St. Augustine, which is just a hair’s breadth or so better than Gaylord.

Any rumblings from Cardinal Mahoney’s diocese?

 

[AlexV]

Utter silence.

 

[MICATH]

Maybe not the right forum to ask this, but how about Bishop Carlson? I haven’t seen anything from him on the MP. Has anyone seen anything from Saginaw on the issue?

 

[sinner]

according to relatives who live in this diocese, not true. until the MP all bishops required priests to get permission to celebrate TLM, but there was no ban whatever on use of Latin for all or part of NO. He like most prudent bishops now require that any priest who wishes to celebrate in Latin first learn the language and rubrics, which is certainly prudent.

From the edict itself" Until other law is promulgated, all liturgies in the diocese of Gaylord are to be celebrated entirely in English by the presiding celebrant." Later, “This policy takes effect immediately.” Still later,"…but the prayers of the Mass are to be in English." You may want to have another talk with those relatives…

 

[st_raphael]

And now, St. Augustine, Florida has joined the disobedient ranks. The bishop there has announced that 50 must be registered in a parish and request this, and that otherwise a pastor may not do it.

I question where you got this information, but I do not question at all the number 50. Are you aware that St. Augustine diocese covers the Jacksonville and Gainsville parishes? Maybe you are speaking about another bishop in error, but let’s consider the statistics.

Log on to the St. Augustine diocese. There are 51 parishes with 162359 registered parishioners, not to mention itinerants from up north. Assume that only 40% attend on any Sunday, which is slim pickins in tourist season. If you do the math right, you see that an average of 1273 people are served per parish.

This is the important part, asking that at least 50 of the 1273 express an interest in the TLM, and I don’t believe that asking 4% in this huge diocese is an unreasonable figure.

Could this entire thread be a case of sour grapes that the traditionalists are not being treated with an open arms policy, simply for the asking?

 

[puzzleannie]

,"…but the prayers of the Mass are to be in English." You may want to have another talk with those relatives…

I did, last night after this thread started, and yup in their parish there is still alot of Latin used in NO and pastor has been canvassing about interest in the area for TLM.

 

[THurifer2]

From the edict itself" Until other law is promulgated, all liturgies in the diocese of Gaylord are to be celebrated entirely in English by the presiding celebrant." Later, “This policy takes effect immediately.” Still later,"…but the prayers of the Mass are to be in English." You may want to have another talk with those relatives…

This “edict” has as much teeth as an edict by the same bishop proclaiming ordination of women in his diocese. The edict itself is subordinate to the motu proprio…which puts the choice of following the extraordinary mass or not in the hands of the parish priest. The priest can celebrate it on sept 14th no matter what the bishop says.

 

[THurifer2]

I question where you got this information, but I do not question at all the number 50.

The determination of “stable group” is not up to the bishop…The Motu Proprio indicates that the Parish priest decides what a "stable group’ Is… the pope wins and the bishop loses in this situation…hopfully the bishop will be humbled.

 

[paramedicgirl]

Could this entire thread be a case of sour grapes that the traditionalists are not being treated with an open arms policy, simply for the asking?

Typical comment in this forum, aimed at disparaging traditionalists.

 

[st_raphael]

Dear lady,

It is not me that will disparage traditionalists, but their own words speak volumes.