Diocese of Rochester, NY - Cornell University Campus Priest explainin' lay preachers

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From the Diocese of Rochester, NY -
Cornell University Campus Priest is explainin’ lay preachers to campus students in his musing column in the weekly church bulletin here.

Here starts out like this…

Musings from Fr. Dan,
I have received some questions about lay preaching in our community. Many quoted some of the liturgical laws that govern our common prayer. There are, however, other canonical laws and liturgical guidelines that enlarge the role of lay preaching even at Eucharist.

While it is true that a lay person may never preach the homily this does not mean that a lay person may never preach at the liturgy . The homily is only one form of preaching, that is done by a priest of deacon at liturgy. The law specifically allows a lay person to preach at a liturgy by using words other than homily which are referred to as explanation of the readings and speaking after the gospel. The laws in question are found in the liturgical books and in other liturgical documents such as The 1973 Dirctory for Masses with Children, The 1988 Dirctory for Sunday Celebration in theAbsece of a Presbyter, and The 1984 Book of Blessings.

The distinction between a homily and lay preaching might seem arbitrary. However, the Directory for Sunday Celebration in the Absence of a Presbyter also says,
“The preaching of a homily is part of most liturgical rites and is, by its very definition, reserved to a priest or deacon. However, the bishop may allow a lay person who is properly trained to explain the word of God at Sunday celebrations in the absece of a priest or deacon and at other specified occasions.”
The authority to preach at the Sunday Eucharist is received from the local ordinary. The tradition of lay praching in theDiocese of Rochester extends back thirty years. Many experts have assisted Bishop Clark (who is himself a canonist by training) in the interpretation of the vast body of liturgical and canonical law. He has deemed it necessary and appropriate for lay preaching in the parishes of his diocese. He also made it clear that the presider speak immediately prior to the lay preacher. candidates must satisfy a rigid set of requirements. They are then commisioned for a limited number of years. Atfter receiving Episcopal permission the local pastor or pastoral administrator determines the occasions and format of lay preaching even at Sunday Eucharist.
 
Unbelievable. Just unbelievable. You know, I think we should start a perpetual chaplet of Divine Mercy for Bishop Clark and the people of this diocese. I know I will be praying for them tonight. . .
 
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contemplative:
The laws in question are found in the liturgical books and in other liturgical documents such as The 1973 Dirctory for Masses with Children, The 1988 Dirctory for Sunday Celebration in the Absence of a Presbyter, and The 1984 Book of Blessings.

How dated and obscure is this? Honestly - Isn’t it time to grow up and face the beat of the Holy Spirit in our Church? Why buck and fight like children looking for loopholes? It is time for Bishop Clark and Diocese to get in step with the Church…enough - stop the thirty-year stretch of side-stepping!

The authority to preach at the Sunday Eucharist is received from the local ordinary. Hot air The tradition of lay praching in theDiocese of Rochester extends back thirty years.Hot air Many experts have assisted Bishop Clark (who is himself a canonist by training) in the interpretation of the vast body of liturgical and canonical law. Hot air
He has deemed it necessary and appropriate for lay preaching in the parishes of his diocese. Hot air
He also made it clear that the presider speak immediately prior to the lay preacher. Hot air
Candidates must satisfy a rigid set of requirements. Hot air
They are then commisioned for a limited number of years. Hot air
After receiving Episcopal permission the local pastor or pastoral administrator determines the occasions and format of lay preaching even at Sunday Eucharist.and more Hot air
 
What the priest cites is absolutely correct (and current). However, if there is a priest or deacon present, then a lay person may not preach. It’s pretty simple. Lay people may preach only in the absence of the clergy. I guess that may be too complicated for some to understand…

Deacon Ed
 
Tantum ergo:
Unbelievable. Just unbelievable. You know, I think we should start a perpetual chaplet of Divine Mercy for Bishop Clark and the people of this diocese. I know I will be praying for them tonight. . .
👋 Hi friend!
That’s why I nominate you, my dear Tantum, as honorary Rochestarian ( complete with a sash and all - but not a rainbow one 😃 )
Next time you consider a move, you need to be here storming our Diocese. But for now, we will take your prayers.

Hope all is great on your end.
 
And here are some things not cited by Father Dan in Rochester. It would have been interesting to see how he treated them

USCCB Complementary legislation, Canon 766 - Lay Preaching (November 14, 2001, recognitio November 27, 2001, publication December 13, 2001, effective January 15, 2002)

“The diocesan bishop will determine the appropriate situations in accord with canon 772§1. In providing for preaching by the lay faithful the diocesan bishop may never dispense from the norm which reserves the homily to the sacred ministers (c. 767§1; cfr. Pontifical Commission for the Authentic Interpretation of the Code of Canon Law, 26 May 1987, in AAS 79 [1987], 1249). Preaching by the lay faithful may not take place within the Celebration of the Eucharist at the moment reserved for the homily.”

The multi-dicasterial instruction, Ecclesio de mysterio, at article 3 and in conclusion, had something to say that is pertinent about the thirty years of diocesan practice regarding lay preaching of the homily during the Eucharist. It was approved in forma specifica by the Supreme Pontiff on 13 August 1997.

“All previous norms which may have admitted the non-ordained faithful to preaching the homily during the Holy Eucharist are to be considered abrogated by canon 767, § 1.” . . . “All particular laws, customs and faculties conceded by the Holy See ad experimentum or other ecclesiastical authorities which are contrary to the foregoing norms are hereby revoked.” (Though these revocations would not be understood to apply to Masses for children.) So the legal weight of the 30 years might not seem to go as far as Father Dan might think.

The distinction made between the homily and some other kind of preaching during the time reserved for the homily at the Mass was commented upon in its essence in the recent Canon Law Society Commentary (p 929).

“This opinion is unpersuasive and unlikely. It descends into sheer nominalism (i.e., the nature of a thing depends on what it is called.) It would mean that lay persons could be invited to give homilies at the Eucharist at any time, as long as they were not *called *homilies.”

Dcn. John Cameron
Lansing MI
 
Deacon Ed:
What the priest cites is absolutely correct (and current). However, if there is a priest or deacon present, then a lay person may not preach. It’s pretty simple. Lay people may preach only in the absence of the clergy. I guess that may be too complicated for some to understand…

Deacon Ed
Unfortunately -
Lay people routinely preach during liturgy while the priest sits and listens. This has been going on for 30 years. Ask any Rochesterian on this forum and they are likely to testify to this. I have stomached the ‘homilies’ from people with names like Ruth. Gloria, Alice and Diane. These women deliver the homily which they dub ‘reflections’ for Sunday Liturgy while the priests sits back and listens.

It is this arguement from Fr. Dan that seems to supersede all other arguements here in the Diocese of Rochester.
 
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contemplative:
Recently Bishop Matthew Clark wrote this article for the Diocesan newspaper.
Associates fill vital parish role
Is this a connection to what the Cornell chaplain writes his bulletin?
I believe there is a strong connection.
So, when they bump into their own limitations or the imperfections of the church and its members, they do not give in to discouragement but turn to the might of Christ. When they meet parishioners who have difficulty accepting new ways or who feel that the pastoral associate is usurping the place of the parish priest, they respond with patient explanation rather than with anger and frustration.
Imperfections of the Church? I not sure I get this.
 
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contemplative:
From the Diocese of Rochester, NY -
Cornell University Campus Priest is explainin’ lay preachers to campus students in his musing column in the weekly church bulletin here.

Here starts out like this…

Musings from Fr. Dan,
I have received some questions about lay preaching in our community. Many quoted some of the liturgical laws that govern our common prayer. There are, however, other canonical laws and liturgical guidelines that enlarge the role of lay preaching even at Eucharist.

While it is true that a lay person may never preach the homily this does not mean that a lay person may never preach at the liturgy . The homily is only one form of preaching, that is done by a priest of deacon at liturgy. The law specifically allows a lay person to preach at a liturgy by using words other than homily which are referred to as explanation of the readings and speaking after the gospel. The laws in question are found in the liturgical books and in other liturgical documents such as The 1973 Dirctory for Masses with Children, The 1988 Dirctory for Sunday Celebration in theAbsece of a Presbyter, and The 1984 Book of Blessings.

The distinction between a homily and lay preaching might seem arbitrary. However, the Directory for Sunday Celebration in the Absence of a Presbyter also says,
“The preaching of a homily is part of most liturgical rites and is, by its very definition, reserved to a priest or deacon. However, the bishop may allow a lay person who is properly trained to explain the word of God at Sunday celebrations in the absece of a priest or deacon and at other specified occasions.”
The authority to preach at the Sunday Eucharist is received from the local ordinary. The tradition of lay praching in theDiocese of Rochester extends back thirty years. Many experts have assisted Bishop Clark (who is himself a canonist by training) in the interpretation of the vast body of liturgical and canonical law. He has deemed it necessary and appropriate for lay preaching in the parishes of his diocese. He also made it clear that the presider speak immediately prior to the lay preacher. candidates must satisfy a rigid set of requirements. They are then commisioned for a limited number of years. Atfter receiving Episcopal permission the local pastor or pastoral administrator determines the occasions and format of lay preaching even at Sunday Eucharist.
The link I OP to this bulletin letter has changed. curw.cornell.edu/Catholic/old_bulletin-2.pdf
It is likely to disappear altogether in about a week or less.
 
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contemplative:
Unfortunately -
Lay people routinely preach during liturgy while the priest sits and listens. …I have stomached the ‘homilies’ from people with names like Ruth. Gloria, Alice and Diane…
From Redemptionis Sacramentum

3. The Other Parts of the Mass
[64.] The homily, which is given in the course of the celebration of Holy Mass and is a part of the Liturgy itself,[142] “should ordinarily be given by the Priest celebrant himself. He may entrust it to a concelebrating Priest or occasionally, according to circumstances, to a Deacon, but never to a layperson.[143]](http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/c...0423_redemptionis-sacramentum_en.html#_ftn143) In particular cases and for a just cause, the homily may even be given by a Bishop or a Priest who is present at the celebration but cannot concelebrate”.[144]

[65.] It should be borne in mind that any previous norm that may have admitted non-ordained faithful to give the homily during the eucharistic celebration is to be considered abrogated by the norm of canon 767 §1.[145] This practice is reprobated, so that it cannot be permitted to attain the force of custom.

[66.] The prohibition of the admission of laypersons to preach within the Mass applies also to seminarians, students of theological disciplines, and those who have assumed the function of those known as “pastoral assistants”; nor is there to be any exception for any other kind of layperson, or group, or community, or association.[146]

6. Complaints Regarding Abuses in Liturgical Matters

[183.] In an altogether particular manner, let everyone do all that is in their power to ensure that the Most Holy Sacrament of the Eucharist will be protected from any and every irreverence or distortion and that all abuses be thoroughly corrected. This is a most serious duty incumbent upon each and every one, and all are bound to carry it out without any favouritism.

[184.] Any Catholic, whether Priest or Deacon or lay member of Christ’s faithful, has the right to lodge a complaint regarding a liturgical abuse to the diocesan Bishop or the competent Ordinary equivalent to him in law, or to the Apostolic See on account of the primacy of the Roman Pontiff.[290] It is fitting, however, insofar as possible, that the report or complaint be submitted first to the diocesan Bishop. This is naturally to be done in truth and charity.

You and anyone else who knows this to be abuse need to seriously consider writing to the CDF. By all means try the Bishop first with what Deacon John has provided. Wait two months and if you don’t get a response, then write the CDF. In fact, if you can, take a tape recorder to Holy Mass and tape the priest reading the gospel, followed by the femine voice of the day, and enclose it with what you send to the CDF. Video would be even better, but would likely raise eyebrows.

By all means enclose copies of the articles when you send in your letter to the CDF.

As a Catholic, if I were being deprived of what was rightfully mine, I would do this out of pure duty. Someone has to or they (Holy Mother Church) cannot get it corrected.
 
Lux,
Everything you say here is great! but…

I live in Rochester and the Bishop has changed things a bit. Lay people do not give homilies. The priest (or in some cases the deacon) give the homily. The lay person then speaks right after them.

I believe Bishop Clark has found a loop hole.

Lux_et_veritas said:
From Redemptionis Sacramentum

3. The Other Parts of the Mass
[64.] The homily, which is given in the course of the celebration of Holy Mass and is a part of the Liturgy itself,[142] “should ordinarily be given by the Priest celebrant himself. He may entrust it to a concelebrating Priest or occasionally, according to circumstances, to a Deacon, but never to a layperson.143] In particular cases and for a just cause, the homily may even be given by a Bishop or a Priest who is present at the celebration but cannot concelebrate”.[144]

[65.] It should be borne in mind that any previous norm that may have admitted non-ordained faithful to give the homily during the eucharistic celebration is to be considered abrogated by the norm of canon 767 §1.[145] This practice is reprobated, so that it cannot be permitted to attain the force of custom.

[66.] The prohibition of the admission of laypersons to preach within the Mass applies also to seminarians, students of theological disciplines, and those who have assumed the function of those known as “pastoral assistants”; nor is there to be any exception for any other kind of layperson, or group, or community, or association.[146]

6. Complaints Regarding Abuses in Liturgical Matters

[183.] In an altogether particular manner, let everyone do all that is in their power to ensure that the Most Holy Sacrament of the Eucharist will be protected from any and every irreverence or distortion and that all abuses be thoroughly corrected. This is a most serious duty incumbent upon each and every one, and all are bound to carry it out without any favouritism.

[184.] Any Catholic, whether Priest or Deacon or lay member of Christ’s faithful, has the right to lodge a complaint regarding a liturgical abuse to the diocesan Bishop or the competent Ordinary equivalent to him in law, or to the Apostolic See on account of the primacy of the Roman Pontiff.[290] It is fitting, however, insofar as possible, that the report or complaint be submitted first to the diocesan Bishop. This is naturally to be done in truth and charity.

You and anyone else who knows this to be abuse need to seriously consider writing to the CDF. By all means try the Bishop first with what Deacon John has provided. Wait two months and if you don’t get a response, then write the CDF. In fact, if you can, take a tape recorder to Holy Mass and tape the priest reading the gospel, followed by the femine voice of the day, and enclose it with what you send to the CDF. Video would be even better, but would likely raise eyebrows.

By all means enclose copies of the articles when you send in your letter to the CDF.

As a Catholic, if I were being deprived of what was rightfully mine, I would do this out of pure duty. Someone has to or they (Holy Mother Church) cannot get it corrected.
 
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ByzCath:
Lux,
Everything you say here is great! but…

I live in Rochester and the Bishop has changed things a bit. Lay people do not give homilies. The priest (or in some cases the deacon) give the homily. The lay person then speaks right after them.

I believe Bishop Clark has found a loop hole.
I live in the Diocese of Rochester. Lay people do give homilies or homily like things they call reflections. I have witnessed this offense for 2/3 of my life. The situation gets increasingly worse as the men/women pastoral assistants/associates increase in numbers. They are now a small army of people in my diocese.

Supposedly a deacon or priest is to give a word before a lay person gets up to speak but this does not happen most of the time. ByzCath does not go to the Roman Catholic parishes I go to. I believe he belongs to some single Eastern Orthodox church in Rochester.

These pastoral associates that Bishop Matthew Clark keeps on the payroll are shouldering responsibilities that belong to either the priest of a parish or volunteers. These men and women pastoral assistants are usurping authority that belongs to a priest. As you read Associates fill vital parish role
you will see that the Bishop here is openly supporting this
they do not give in to discouragement but turn to the might of Christ
Bishop Matthew Clark feels that this army of women/men (mostly women) is under the influence of
the might of Christ.
This is what Bishop Matthew Clark has bred in my diocese in nearly my life time…a small army of female dissidents who now easily outnumber the shrinking and failing priesthood.
 
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Lux_et_veritas:
By all means enclose copies of the articles when you send in your letter to the CDF.

As a Catholic, if I were being deprived of what was rightfully mine, I would do this out of pure duty. Someone has to or they (Holy Mother Church) cannot get it corrected.
I have both of these articles printed. Today I will send a letter stating my experiences in this diocese to the CDF. I guess this letter from me is long overdue. I have assumed all along the past few years that there were others who all ready did this and that my letter was futile…maybe I have been wrong…
The day is cloudy, dark, wet and cold and I have all day to write. Please pray that I clealy state my concerns for the Church here in the Diocese of Rochester.
 
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ByzCath:
Lux,
Everything you say here is great! but…

I live in Rochester and the Bishop has changed things a bit. Lay people do not give homilies. The priest (or in some cases the deacon) give the homily. The lay person then speaks right after them.

I believe Bishop Clark has found a loop hole.
Where is this loophole? I can’t find it in any of the texts posted here. As another poster wrote the term is nominalism where one calls an action by a different name but does not actually change what that action is.
“This opinion is unpersuasive and unlikely. It descends into sheer nominalism (i.e., the nature of a thing depends on what it is called.) It would mean that lay persons could be invited to give homilies at the Eucharist at any time, as long as they were not *called *homilies.”
 
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contemplative:
I have both of these articles printed. Today I will send a letter stating my experiences in this diocese to the CDF. I guess this letter from me is long overdue. I have assumed all along the past few years that there were others who all ready did this and that my letter was futile…maybe I have been wrong…
The day is cloudy, dark, wet and cold and I have all day to write. Please pray that I clealy state my concerns for the Church here in the Diocese of Rochester.
Good deed. That “someone else” is YOU. But, encourage others who are upset by it to write to the CDF. As I stated, if you can get a recording of the Gospel, followed by the introduction of the lay person and their voice, it would bolster the case.

Often times, organizations respond to the volumes. If they are receiving much mail from Rochester, it will get their attention.

As for Byz Cath, I would ask if the Liturgy he is referring to is the Divine Liturgy. If so, then maybe the Latin Rite in Rochester is carrying on with this abusive practice of allowing lay people to speak at Holy Mass.

And as a lay Catholic on the sidelines in another diocese, I have exercised my right to send copies to The Wanderer, requesting that they investigate and shed light on it if they find it to be true. I don’t know if they will take up this kind of thing, but we’ll see in time.
 
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contemplative:
From the Diocese of Rochester, NY -
Cornell University Campus Priest is explainin’ lay preachers to campus students in his musing column in the weekly church bulletin here.

Here starts out like this…

Musings from Fr. Dan,
I have received some questions about lay preaching in our community. Many quoted some of the liturgical laws that govern our common prayer. There are, however, other canonical laws and liturgical guidelines that enlarge the role of lay preaching even at Eucharist.

While it is true that a lay person may never preach the homily this does not mean that a lay person may never preach at the liturgy . The homily is only one form of preaching, that is done by a priest of deacon at liturgy. The law specifically allows a lay person to preach at a liturgy by using words other than homily which are referred to as explanation of the readings and speaking after the gospel. The laws in question are found in the liturgical books and in other liturgical documents such as The 1973 Dirctory for Masses with Children, The 1988 Dirctory for Sunday Celebration in theAbsece of a Presbyter, and The 1984 Book of Blessings.

The distinction between a homily and lay preaching might seem arbitrary. However, the Directory for Sunday Celebration in the Absence of a Presbyter also says,
“The preaching of a homily is part of most liturgical rites and is, by its very definition, reserved to a priest or deacon. However, the bishop may allow a lay person who is properly trained to explain the word of God at Sunday celebrations in the absece of a priest or deacon and at other specified occasions.”
The authority to preach at the Sunday Eucharist is received from the local ordinary. The tradition of lay praching in theDiocese of Rochester extends back thirty years. Many experts have assisted Bishop Clark (who is himself a canonist by training) in the interpretation of the vast body of liturgical and canonical law. He has deemed it necessary and appropriate for lay preaching in the parishes of his diocese. He also made it clear that the presider speak immediately prior to the lay preacher. candidates must satisfy a rigid set of requirements. They are then commisioned for a limited number of years. Atfter receiving Episcopal permission the local pastor or pastoral administrator determines the occasions and format of lay preaching even at Sunday Eucharist.
Legalism at its best! Let’s see how we can wiggle our innovations into the Liturgy while claiming to remain faithful to the Holy Sacrifice of the Eucharist. :banghead:
 
:blessyou:

Now the rest of us should pray that the Holy Spirit works through the system as He so desires.

EDIT: I see many envelopes. To whom do they all go?
 
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contemplative:
Supposedly a deacon or priest is to give a word before a lay person gets up to speak but this does not happen most of the time. ByzCath does not go to the Roman Catholic parishes I go to. I believe he belongs to some single Eastern Orthodox church in Rochester.
You know, I do not have any idea what your problem with me is but please do not speak as if you know me.

I go to many different parrishes. A couple of the Diocese of Rochester which do as I said. I am sure that you have not been to every parish in the diocese just as I haven’t. What I stated is actually the rule that the bishop has put out.

It is not a homily in the cases that I am speaking of. That doesn’t make it right though and it doesn’t mean I think it is good or right.

I also attend a couple of Eastern Catholic parishes. I emphasised this becuase I am a Catholic. How else could be I entering formation in a Latin Catholic religious order? Why would my spiritual director be the abbot of a Catholic monastery?
 
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