Diocese of Rochester, NY - Cornell University Campus Priest explainin' lay preachers

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

fix:

Where is this loophole? I can’t find it in any of the texts posted here. As another poster wrote the term is nominalism where one calls an action by a different name but does not actually change what that action is.

The loop hole is that the priest, or deacon, gives a homily. The lay person then speaks after.

Yes I agree with you that it is wrong and could be called a homily but as a homily is given they think they are right.

Again, I do not like it either and think it is wrong but I have yet to see this exact practice addressed by the Vatican.

Lux_et_veritas:

As for Byz Cath, I would ask if the Liturgy he is referring to is the Divine Liturgy. If so, then maybe the Latin Rite in Rochester is carrying on with this abusive practice of allowing lay people to speak at Holy Mass.

I know the differences between the Divine Liturgy and the Mass and Bishop Clark has no say over the Divine Liturgy in Rochester as it is not under his jurisdiction.

I am having trouble understanding why you people refuse to listen to me and count my experiences as vaild, Maybe its because they are different than yours?

 

[palmas85]

buffalo:

Legalism at its best! Let’s see how we can wiggle our innovations into the Liturgy while claiming to remain faithful to the Holy Sacrifice of the Eucharist. :banghead:

Could somebody please explain to me what the term Legalism means? Maybe I’m dense, but I really con’t put it into context most of the time when it is used on this forum.

 

[contemplative]

ByzCath:

You know, I do not have any idea what your problem with me is but please do not speak as if you know me.

Now BzCath…you know I don’t have a problem with you …I named you and a few others as my favorite posters…on the ‘Who is your favorite poster?’ thread.

I see…what you saying about how you see it but in the parishes around me I see it differently…these priests and lay homilist are shameless about what they do :nope: It is striking how boldly they have doin’ their own thing for years.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

contemplative:

Now BzCath…you know I don’t have a problem with you …I named you and a few others as my favorite posters…on the ‘Who is your favorite poster?’ thread.

I see…what you saying about how you see it but in the parishes around me I see it differently…these priests and lay homilist are shameless about what they do :nope: It is striking how boldly they have doin’ their own thing for years.

Okay,
I as for your forgiveness for the anger in my post. It is starting to look to me as if we byzantines are not allowed to post on issues of the Latin Church, even though we are Catholics. At least thats how it looks to me.

Around here, in the City, they do as I said and again, I do not think it is right as it does blur the lines of clergy and laity. But I do believe that the bishop feels he has found a loop hole and until the Vatican says something about it he will keep up with it.

I hope and pray that the recently completed Synod will bare some fruit in this and all the other abuses that are going on in the liturgy.

 

[contemplative]

ByzCath:

I hope and pray that the recently completed Synod will bare some fruit in this and all the other abuses that are going on in the liturgy.

I have been hoping and praying this too but also worried about what a bunch ( 100 or so )of misdirected people ( mostly women) will do when they realize they aren’t going to become the priestesses they hope to be.

Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned

It might be like hell in this diocese for awhile. I suppose it has only to get better after some changes are made and the fury dies down.

 

[contemplative]

palmas85:

Could somebody please explain to me what the term Legalism means? Maybe I’m dense, but I really con’t put it into context most of the time when it is used on this forum.

Main Entry: le·gal·ism [%between%](javascriptopWin(’/cgi-bin/audio.pl?legali01.wav=legalism’))
Pronunciation: 'lE-g&-"li-z&m
Function: noun
1 : strict, literal, or excessive conformity to the law or to a religious or moral code <the institutionalized legalism that restricts free choice>

I think legalism is used to describe excessive conformity to the law to promote a particular agenda?

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

ByzCath:

The loop hole is that the priest, or deacon, gives a homily. The lay person then speaks after.

Yes I agree with you that it is wrong and could be called a homily but as a homily is given they think they are right.

Again, I do not like it either and think it is wrong but I have yet to see this exact practice addressed by the Vatican.

I know the differences between the Divine Liturgy and the Mass and Bishop Clark has no say over the Divine Liturgy in Rochester as it is not under his jurisdiction.

I am having trouble understanding why you people refuse to listen to me and count my experiences as vaild, Maybe its because they are different than yours?

Whoa! Hold on there. I was not inferring that you were lying or discounting your experience. I was asking if you were referring to the Divine Liturgy or the Latin Liturgy. Please forgive my ignorance. When I see “ByzCath” I am assuming you attend a Byzantine Rite service. If that were the case, in my mind it may explain a different perspective within the same diocese. It was not aimed at insulting you in any way. I think you read far more into it.

Rochester Participants
The Diocese of Rochester, NY is how big? Is it possible that some parishes have given up this practice in obedience, while others are in defiance? Unless this diocese has only 2 or 3 parishes, there is no way you can know what each and everyone is doing. But, if even a few are doing this, with knowledge or consent of the local Ordinary, it is a sad violation and the people are deprived of their right to Mass without liturgical abuse.

Redemptionis Sacramentum and Canon Law re both clear. For any priest to continue this practice is similar to a child simply eating a cookie from jar #2, when mom says not to eat a cookie out of jar #1 before dinner. It is clear that mom did not say don’t eat out of jar #2 before dinner so technically, one could argue the child was not disobedient. Provided the child has reached the age of reason, the child should be able to easily understand mom’s intent of simply not eating before dinner, regardless of whether the cookie is in Jar #1, #2, or on the floor for that matter.

Having people talk during the part of the Mass reserved for the Homily is clearly a form of liturgical abuse. If it is not a homily in which they are speaking, then they have inserted something within the Mass which is also not permissible. The Mass does not belong to them. It belongs to God and is to be done in the manner prescribed by Holy Mother Church. When people go outside of those bounds when they have full access to all of the information we do (meaning spare me the ignorance argument), then they are making the Mass theirs. It is not theirs to have.

Contrary to what some may think (referring to those violating the norms), Holy Mass is not like an American Idol song where the contestant gets to make it his or her own.

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

contemplative:

I have been hoping and praying this too but also worried about what a bunch ( 100 or so )of misdirected people ( mostly women) will do when they realize they aren’t going to become the priestesses they hope to be.

Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned

It might be like hell in this diocese for awhile. I suppose it has only to get better after some changes are made and the fury dies down.

I changed my mind on the ignorance stance. It is through humble obedience that we grow in sanctity. The opposite is prideful arrogance. While some may be ignorant, they deserve the benefit of being taught, with reasonable authority, what the Church’s position is on these matters.

 

[Psalm45_9]

Hmmmm… this priest is at Cornell University… Need I say anymore?

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Lux_et_veritas:

Whoa! Hold on there. I was not inferring that you were lying or discounting your experience. I was asking if you were referring to the Divine Liturgy or the Latin Liturgy. Please forgive my ignorance. When I see “ByzCath” I am assuming you attend a Byzantine Rite service. If that were the case, in my mind it may explain a different perspective within the same diocese. It was not aimed at insulting you in any way. I think you read far more into it.

I am sorry for misunderstanding you.

I am a Byzantine Catholic but, if you have clicked on the link in my signature you would know that I have been accepted into formation with a Latin religious order. Even before that I would attend a Mass on occasion.

I also try to make it to daily Mass a couple times a week. There are no daily Divine Liturgies.

Rochester Participants
The Diocese of Rochester, NY is how big? Is it possible that some parishes have given up this practice in obedience, while others are in defiance? Unless this diocese has only 2 or 3 parishes, there is no way you can know what each and everyone is doing. But, if even a few are doing this, with knowledge or consent of the local Ordinary, it is a sad violation and the people are deprived of their right to Mass without liturgical abuse.

The Diocese of Rochester is very large.

This comes from the Diocesean web site.

the Diocese of Rochester extends from the southern shore of Lake Ontario, through New York’s Finger Lakes region, and to the New York-Pennsylvania border. Established in 1868 the diocese encompasses 12 counties and is home to approximately 350,000 Catholics, belonging to nearly 200 faith communities.

I do not think it is the case that some priests have just stopped doing this on their own. One of the parishes I go to on occasion is pastored by the diocesean vocations director.

Redemptionis Sacramentum and Canon Law re both clear.

Unfortunatly both of these are silent on the issue of a lay person giving a reflection after the homily.

 

[cyprian]

I find this all so very unbelievable.

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

ByzCath:

I am a Byzantine Catholic but, if you have clicked on the link in my signature you would know that I have been accepted into formation with a Latin religious order. Even before that I would attend a Mass on occasion.

Congrats on your formation! I’m not too good at going into people’s sigs, but should start doing that.

Unfortunatly both of these are silent on the issue of a lay person giving a reflection after the homily.

Please don’t take this as sarcastic, I’m just using an outrageous example to illustrate a point. The GIRM and RS are silent on blessing animals during the Mass too.

Here are the parts of the Mass as stated in the GIRM (note that which is outlined in red):

1. 
   *]The Individual Parts of the Mass
   
   *]The Introductory Rites
   The Entrance
   Greeting of the Altar and of the People Gathered Together
   The Act of Penitence
   The Kyrie Eleison
   The Gloria
   The Collect
   *]The Liturgy of the Word
   Silence
   The Biblical Readings
   The Responsorial Psalm
   The Homily
   The Profession of Faith
   The Prayer of the Faithful
   
   *]The Liturgy of the Eucharist
   The Preparation of the Gifts
   The Prayer over the Offerings
   The Eucharistic Prayer
   The Communion Rite
   The Lord’s Prayer
   The Rite of Peace
   The Fraction
   Communion
   *]The Concluding Rites
   
   If the priest is giving the homily and then someone else is invited up to provide a “reflection”, then something called a “reflection” has been added to the Mass. If it is not “homily”, then what is it? All parts of the Mass have names and content cannot be added or removed. There is no part of the Mass called “reflection”. Rather it goes right from the Gospel into the Homily and then to the Credo, when said, or into the next part of the Mass. We cannot add or remove something from the Mass as we desire.
   
   I cannot have my dog blessed after the homily is read, because such a blessing would be an “add”. But, my dog can be blessed outside of Mass time - and, outside the building if not a dog for the handicapped…
   
   …And, a reflection can be provided following Mass in the Church hall. In fact, my parish is very successful at attracting decent crowds for “Days of Recollection” and post-Mass lectures and talks on various topics. But, it all takes place in the adjacent building.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Lux_et_veritas:

Congrats on your formation! I’m not too good at going into people’s sigs, but should start doing that.

Thank you.

Please don’t take this as sarcastic, I’m just using an outrageous example to illustrate a point. The GIRM and RS are silent on blessing animals during the Mass too.

You are right on this.

But let me take it another way. I can think of a time where a reflection given after the homily might be a good thing.

The Rochester Diocese does a thing every year where one Sunday all collections go to some mission. A representative of the mission chosen for each parish is at all the Masses for that Sunday.

One I went to was for a diocese in Central America. The representative was the bishop of that diocese so he celebrated the Mass and gave the homily. Another year it was a mission in Africa run by nuns. So a group of the nuns were there. After the homily one of the nuns talked a bit about their mission.

So I do not think we can totally rule out this sort of thing but I do not think it should be done on a regular basis.

One last thing. Here in America I believe that most people are of the opinion that if something is not mentioned in the “rules” then it is fair game. I think it is a cultural thing. It is not right nor good but it seems to be the case.

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

ByzCath:

Thank you.

You are right on this.

But let me take it another way. I can think of a time where a reflection given after the homily might be a good thing.

The Rochester Diocese does a thing every year where one Sunday all collections go to some mission. A representative of the mission chosen for each parish is at all the Masses for that Sunday. 1

One I went to was for a diocese in Central America. The representative was the bishop of that diocese so he celebrated the Mass and gave the homily. Another year it was a mission in Africa run by nuns. So a group of the nuns were there. After the homily one of the nuns talked a bit about their mission. 2

So I do not think we can totally rule out this sort of thing but I do not think it should be done on a regular basis. 3

One last thing. Here in America I believe that most people are of the opinion that if something is not mentioned in the “rules” then it is fair game. I think it is a cultural thing. It is not right nor good but it seems to be the case. 4

I have added red, bold numbers behind each comment and will reply this way accordingly:

**1 **This is not exclusive to the Rochester Diocese. It happens in Catholic Churches all across America and more than likely, in all nations. In fact, I recently heard a priest from one of the mission areas, where people are dirt poor, having mentioned that they too collected what they could and sent it in, then it was returned to the local parish for them to use.

2 While many parishes, in fact probably most, have the mission priest or sister speak either during or after the homily, this is not where it is suppose to take place. I did not learn of this until, in my new parish, I watched how it was handled. The Mass went about as usual, with a Franciscan priest from a mission sitting in the pews with the rest of us. He did not speak during or after the homily. Rather, he was brought up following Mass. The announcements were read and it was explained that we needed to give the mission priest our time and attention. It was like an extension of the announcements. When the priest concluded about 10 minutes later, a final blessing was given and Mass was done. This extended Mass because there was a regular homily, not forshortened due to the missionary priest. But, at my parish, Masses run an hour and a half easily anyway and people generally are not in a hurry, often hanging out for hours after Mass.

3 As stated above, each parish has to take a missionary priest yearly and it may be more than once yearly. I’ve never looked into it more deeply.

4 I have to go back to my “blessing of the animals” analogy. What prevents someone from coming into Holy Mass and beginning a Divine Mercy Chaplet at the height of Consecration? Nothing specifically prohibits this. What prevents people priests from dressing up as Clowns (and we know this still happens) to celebrate Holy Mass? It is not specifically prohibited that clown-garb should not be worn by priests. However, the GIRM does specifically state what the priest should wear. Likewise, the GIRM tells us what the contents of the Mass are and reflections or talks by laity are simply not a part of that content.

I can guarantee you that this practice will be halted by Rome in due time. It may take months, but most likely years for it to trickle down, but once they are aware, they will investigate and it will cease. We may never see any kind of letter or document. Rather, they may simply be told that they are in error in their interpretation of Canon Law and given a chance to change their application of Canon Law. In fact, it may come in the form of a new bishop who will put the kabosh to it if the practice continues following such “instruction”.

The key point is that the faithful have a right to assist at Mass, and one that is free of liturgical abuse, or people making it their own. There is plenty of time outside of Mass to have talks and reflections in the parish hall.

Arguments in favor of this are simply applying “the Spirit of the GIRM”, rather than the true intent of the GIRM. It’s a way for people to stretch things to suit their desires, rather than accepting the norm with humble obedience.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Lux_et_veritas:

The key point is that the faithful have a right to assist at Mass, and one that is free of liturgical abuse, or people making it their own. There is plenty of time outside of Mass to have talks and reflections in the parish hall.

Arguments in favor of this are simply applying “the Spirit of the GIRM”, rather than the true intent of the GIRM. It’s a way for people to stretch things to suit their desires, rather than accepting the norm with humble obedience.

I want you to understand that I do not condone this practice and I agree with you totally on it all I am doing is telling you my experiences and what I have heard from the diocese in question and what people who work in the diocese have told me.

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

ByzCath:

I want you to understand that I do not condone this practice and I agree with you totally on it all I am doing is telling you my experiences and what I have heard from the diocese in question and what people who work in the diocese have told me.

I hear you, Byz.

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

For those who have not noticed, Karl Keating addressed the issue in his latest e-letter (God Bless Him).

catholic.com/newsletters/kke_051025.asp

Diane

 

[Iacobus]

Hi Folks!

I am a Catholic student at Cornell. This bulletin that you are talking about caused a lot of hubbub among the more orthodox students. After many, many emails, nothing has changed - and laypersons give homilies every Sunday.

Some of us only recently started a blog, if you are interested:

www.cornell-catholic-circle.blogspot.com

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

Thanks and don’t give up.

In fact, the more of you who send mail to the Vatican with details, the better. Numbers add up and come under attention. Enclose copies of the relevant articles.

Keep it civil and objective. Don’t get emotional in the letter. Send it off to the CDF.

 

[piscotikus]

I think us Rochestarians who want to be faithful to the teachings of the Church need to find a good one with a few good priests. I am new to the area but a couple that come to mind are:

St. Anne’s on Mt. Hope

St. Mark’s in Greece

St. Thomas More in Brighton

If anyone can add to where we should go that’d be great.

I just got married and an trying to decide which church to join. I grew up at SS. Peter and Paul (a Byzantine Church) in Auburn but my wife is Roman Catholic as well as my father so we have decided to join the Roman Catholic church. Any help would greatly be appreciated.