Father, is there any way you can help me out? I’m essentially struggling w. John 6 & the teaching that you only need one of the 2, (host, wine (body/blood). I’m of the mind that they should both be of equal importance. I’m getting told I’m bordering on heresy & utraquism, but the truth is that I see John 6 for what it is. He speaks to a crowd & he’s essentially telling them the fruitful benefits of the body & blood. In the last supper, he’s instructing his apostles to do so in rememberance of him…the future celebrants…my point is, both can partake. In both. I am fully aware of the church teachings. I am fully aware of Trent. I’m not trying to cause trouble, I actually love the church, and my faith has grown exponentially since my conversion & confirmation in '07. My frustration is that people are content with decisions being made for them. No question. LIMBO has been eliminated…I mean, that’s a big step…so imagine the possibilities. It’s impossible until someone says it’s not is essentially what I’m gathering. I trust the church, and respect its teachings. I feel this is something that has collected dust & never really gets discussed in todays world, and gets overshadowed by loftier issues like abortion, addictions, the homeless, etc. I dont know. I know what I think. I know how I feel. John 6 is staring me in the face…I mean, it’s pretty plain.
Jason, I’ve been following this thread, and actually was about to post something when I saw your last post.
My concern here is that what you’re saying and what other people are hearing are 2 different things–and the same is happening in reverse.
When the Church says that it isn’t the normal practice for the laity to receive from the chalice (or did say that in the past, to be more accurate) that’s not to say that there is any spiritual or scriptural prohibition against it. In an earlier post, you seemed to imply that the Church is/was saying that because only the Apostles were at the Last Supper that only priests can receive the Precious Blood. Post #59. Perhaps it would have been beneficial if it were said from the beginning that the Church does not say that there is any Divine command, or any scriptural basis for saying that the laity are prohibited from receiving the Blood of Christ. Even though it was liturgical practice for centuries not-to-do this, that isn’t the same thing as saying that it would have been wrong for any spiritual reasons. To put that another way, the Church never actually said it was wrong to do this, only that it would be a matter of practice not to do it.
I think the confusion here is that you might be under the impression that when the Church says that it’s not necessary for the laity to receive Christ under accidents of wine, that this is the same thing as saying that there is some deep-rooted spiritual reason why the laity cannot receive this way. Not the same thing.
You are defending the idea, certainly held and taught by the Church that it is a fuller sign of the Eucharist when the communicant receives both Body and Blood. That’s true. You are correct. But no one has actually disputed that.
What Japhy and Brendan (if I may) are trying to do is to explain why when we receive only one species, we are receiving the entire Christ. This likewise is the teaching of the Church.
Allow me to start “from the beginning”:
At the crucifixion, the flesh and blood of Christ were seperated (ie death). Neither blood nor flesh can be alive without the other. In the resurrection, the flesh and blood were re-united to each other to once again constitute a whole and living body. That’s why there can never be either the Body without the Blood or the Blood without the Body–since Christ is indeed a living being. The Church calls this concomitance. In your post 46, you may have misunderstood what was being said earlier about the flesh–it wasn’t meant to be something offensive, but it was meant to explain that no human flesh can be living without blood, and therefore because the Eucharist is indeed the living Christ, the Blood is already present in/with the Body. The body without the blood would be a dead Christ (like he was between the crucifixion and resurrection).
Heretics have claimed that the laity must receive both Body and Blood or there is no Eucharist. I know you don’t subscribe to this idea. However, a cursory reading of your posts would give one the impression that this is what you’re trying to say–even though you aren’t.
Yes, Christ gave us both Body and Blood at the Last Supper, and continues to give us both. Take that sentence different ways and it still applies. He gave us Body and Blood. He gave us “Bread” and “Wine.” What Japhy and Brendan are trying to express is simply that it isn’t strictly-speaking necessary to receive both species of bread and wine in order to receive the entire Christ. While it’s not necessary, it’s also true that it is a fuller-sign that we (ie everyone, clergy and laity) receive under both species.
The Church as a whole certainly does need both the Body and Blood of Christ. There can be no Mass without either bread or wine (of course, you know this). However, when it comes to an
individual person receiving the Eucharist, each person receives Christ whole and entire in either species of bread or wine. The fullness of the sign might not be there, but the fullness of Christ Himself certainly is.
I think you summed it up best when you said at the end of your recent post: “If you dont have one, then okay, you can make do, but if you have the ability to do it right, then ya should.” Yes, all Catholics “should” receive under both species. The Church teaches this, and actually has always taught this. But at the same time, historic circumstances have been such that the Church has found a need to say that the laity shoud not be receiving the Blood as a matter of liturgical practice. Just like in Kuwait, it wasn’t practical for the chaplain to give you the consecrated Wine to keep and receive when he wasn’t able to return to say Mass for a long time, the Church has seen, and continues to see reasons why it isn’t practical to distribute the Blood to everyone at every Mass.
I know I’ve rambled, and repeated myself, so please bear with me. Does this help at all???
