Directory of traditional OF Masses

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EphelDuath

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Hi folks. I was just pondering upon the fact that there’s several resources online for finding a TLM, but not really any for traditional and reverent OF Masses. I was supposing that maybe people here on CAF could list some themselves?

Some characteristics that I’m speaking of (but not all of them are required, certainly):
  • Most of the prayers of the Mass chanted
  • Eucharistic Prayer ad orientem
  • Gregorian chant, traditional polyphony and/or organ music
  • Holy Communion encouraged to be received kneeling on the tongue
  • Parts of the Ordinary in Latin
  • Homilies are doctrinally orthodox
Related: public choir celebration of Vespers, and non-modernistic architecture (although this can be unavoidable for many, sadly…).

One parish I know of that does this is St. Bernadette Catholic Church in Silver Spring, MD. Fits all of the above. Anybody know of any others, or perhaps an online directory that has some?

Disclaimer: please no gripes about parishes that aren’t like this. This is not the thread for that.

God bless 🙂
 
EphelDuath said:
Hi folks. I was just pondering upon the fact that there’s several resources online for finding a TLM, but not really any for traditional and reverent OF Masses. I was supposing that maybe people here on CAF could list some themselves?

Some characteristics that I’m speaking of (but not all of them are required, certainly):
  • Most of the prayers of the Mass chanted
  • Eucharistic Prayer ad orientem
  • Gregorian chant, traditional polyphony and/or organ music
  • Holy Communion encouraged to be received kneeling on the tongue
  • Parts of the Ordinary in Latin
  • Homilies are doctrinally orthodox
Related: public choir celebration of Vespers, and non-modernistic architecture (although this can be unavoidable for many, sadly…).

One parish I know of that does this is St. Bernadette Catholic Church in Silver Spring, MD. Fits all of the above. Anybody know of any others, or perhaps an online directory that has some?

Disclaimer: please no gripes about parishes that aren’t like this. This is not the thread for that.

God bless 🙂
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I’d be interested to see if such a directory existed, but I would be surprised if it did. The thing with the TLM is that it is a concrete detail that is easy to verify. Making judgments on the “reverence” of the OF or the quality of the homilies is going to be less clear cut. Not everyone would define those the same way. And it is more likely to change with the shuffling around of priests.
 
EphelDuath said:
Hi folks. I was just pondering upon the fact that there’s several resources online for finding a TLM, but not really any for traditional and reverent OF Masses.
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People will be upset at you now :o

Here’s the thing: there can be a directory for the Extraordinary Form because it is something in itself. There cannot, however, be a directory for “reverent Ordinary Form” because…each and every Ordinary Form is supposed to be as reverent as possible!

To make such a list would in fact imply to point fingers at parishes - no, sorry, at priests! - who in someone’s judgment (whether right or wrong) do not celebrate as reverently as they could (whether this was the intention or not, only Christ knows). But if this happens, the proper thing to do is not to make a directory about it, or to avoid that parish…

Some of the elements you mention are covered by special dispensations, so that the priest can choose to celebrate versus populum (and this is what most often done), so that people can choose to receive Holy Communion standing, and on the hand (…), so that most (if not all) of the liturgy is in the vernacular, so that other instruments and hymns are present instead of the organ and Gregorian chant.

No dispensation was given to preach unorthodox homilies, though - in such case, again, there are things to do, and making a note about priests who deliver unorthodox homilies is not one of those things…

All of the actions covered by dispensation, when done properly, are to be considered reverent, because they are being done in accordance with what Holy Church allows as valid and licit. Therefore one cannot denote a specific Mass with these elements as “not reverent”, nor can one do the opposite (since that would be a merely external judgment). Reverence is found in our heart, where only Christ can see.

Now, I know that as a custom, the Canons of St. John Cantius celebrate the Ordinary Form ad orientem, in English as well as purely in Latin (see article). But this is just the way *they * always do it.

I have also come to realize after a time attending both forms and serving the E.F. that we must be humble enough to focus solely and exclusively on Christ no matter what happens around us, no matter how distressed we may be at what is done without all the reverence that would be possible (according to our judgment). A priest is there, and his words bring forth the Holy Eucharist, the Blessed Sacrament, Christ really present. Even if all else breaks down, *that *must be our focus.

For all that happens is either *willed *or *allowed *by Our Lord, who is in fact the one and only priest, the one ultimately in charge.
 
R_C said:
Here’s the thing: there can be a directory for the Extraordinary Form because it is something in itself. There cannot, however, be a directory for “reverent Ordinary Form” because…each and every Ordinary Form is supposed to be as reverent as possible!
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But they aren’t.
To make such a list would in fact imply to point fingers at parishes - no, sorry, at priests! - who in someone’s judgment (whether right or wrong) do not celebrate as reverently as they could (whether this was the intention or not, only Christ knows). But if this happens, the proper thing to do is not to make a directory about it, or to avoid that parish…
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This seems like strange logic to me. Nobody is pointing the fingers at bad parishes, I’m asking for recognition for outstanding parishes. It’s like saying there should be no Olympic gold because that subtly implies inferiority among everybody who didn’t come in first.

I don’t see what’s so objectionable about my question. There’s a huge demand for TLM, but there’s also a huge demand for traditionally-celebrated OF Masses. It’s easy to find out where the former are, but no such resource exists for the latter – yes, it’s true that it’s not exactly an entirely solid definition, but OK then. How about a categorization for which parishes have Gregorian chant? That’s something solid. That’s something that can be documented. Then, you can add ad orientem in as a category as well. Et al.
 
In the Chicago area, in addition to SJC, there is The Oratory of Our Lady Mother of the Church in Willow Springs, IL

Done in Latin with readings and sermon in Polish. Organ, communion by intinction.
 
EphelDuath said:
But they aren’t.

This seems like strange logic to me. Nobody is pointing the fingers at bad parishes, I’m asking for recognition for outstanding parishes. It’s like saying there should be no Olympic gold because that subtly implies inferiority among everybody who didn’t come in first.

I don’t see what’s so objectionable about my question. There’s a huge demand for TLM, but there’s also a huge demand for traditionally-celebrated OF Masses. It’s easy to find out where the former are, but no such resource exists for the latter – yes, it’s true that it’s not exactly an entirely solid definition, but OK then. How about a categorization for which parishes have Gregorian chant? That’s something solid. That’s something that can be documented. Then, you can add ad orientem in as a category as well. Et al.
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It’s not that your question is objectionable per se. I think R_C is just pointing out that people will take it that way. They’ll see their parish’s exclusion from the list as a snub. Then they’ll start asking “Well, who are you to judge whether or not a parish Mass is reverent? Our liturgical dance squad is quite reverent, thank you very much!” 😛

You mention asking about specific things like Gregorian chant. Really, that’s the only way I could see this working. It would probably be more helpful anyway. Any given parish could simply check boxes as to what they have. Then someone who is searching could go to the directory, define the search parameters, and get a list. This avoids coming across as making any sort of judgment calls.

It’s not necessarily a bad idea. I can imagine it would be quite an undertaking, though.
 
EphelDuath said:
I don’t see what’s so objectionable about my question. There’s a huge demand for TLM, but there’s also a huge demand for traditionally-celebrated OF Masses. It’s easy to find out where the former are, but no such resource exists for the latter – yes, it’s true that it’s not exactly an entirely solid definition, but OK then. How about a categorization for which parishes have Gregorian chant? That’s something solid. That’s something that can be documented. Then, you can add ad orientem in as a category as well. Et al.
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I don’t see anything objectionable, but one has to keep in mind that with Novus Ordo, things can change in the twinkling of an eye. What happens when the pastor is transferred and his replacement is nix-on-trix for Latin or Chant? True, a change in pastors can affect the Usus Antiquior as well in diocesan parishes, but it usually doesn’t. Most times, the needs and sensibilities of that part of the community are taken into consideration and, if not, the community will ultimately fold and individuals will have to look elsewhere for the Usus Antiquior. OTOH, with the Novus Ordo, consideration of such sensibilities seems generally to be anything but taken into account.

One our members has mentioned a story about Christmas Mass: if I recall the tale correctly, the priest offered the Novus Ordo in Latin, but after a year or so, said: “what’s the point?” From there on, he offered the Usus Antiquior.
 
Joe_5859 said:
I’d be interested to see if such a directory existed, but I would be surprised if it did. The thing with the TLM is that it is a concrete detail that is easy to verify. **Making judgments on the “reverence” of the OF or the quality of the homilies is going to be less clear cut. ** Not everyone would define those the same way. And it is more likely to change with the shuffling around of priests.
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Not just less clear cut. Pretty much impossible.

OP,
Just take

“Holy Communion encouraged to be received kneeling on the tongue”

Does that mean 75% receive that way? 90%? 50%?

Or simply that the pastor talks about it? 🤷

What if the pastor encourages receiving kneeling on the tongue, but most people don’t? Would you still consider the Mass “traditional.”

There are just too many variables.
 
The OP poses an absurd question on multiple fronts. First of all, it would be offensive to OF parishes to be left off that list. Secondly, “traditional OF mass” is a contradiction in terms, because “traditional” is a synonym for TLM in the context of types of masses.

This is nothing more than an attempt to cause arguments.
 
Reborn2013 said:
Secondly, “traditional OF mass” is a contradiction in terms, because “traditional” is a synonym for TLM in the context of types of masses.
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Fair point. Perhaps it might be better to title it “OF Masses leaning toward the traditional.” Or “…pre 1962 practices.” Just saying.
 
Reborn2013 said:
The OP poses an absurd question on multiple fronts. First of all, it would be offensive to OF parishes to be left off that list. Secondly, “traditional OF mass” is a contradiction in terms, because “traditional” is a synonym for TLM in the context of types of masses.

This is nothing more than an attempt to cause arguments.
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That’s like saying it’s offensive to TLM’s that don’t have high mass on sundays to leave them off a list of TLM’s. OP is trying to find resources about certain kinds of OF masses. Give him a break.

Claiming that he IS attempting to cause arguments instead of giving him the benefit of the doubt is judgmental.

OP, I know for a fact that St. Mary of Victories in St. Louis has a Sunday Latin OF with gregorian propers, ad oriented, etc. Communion at the rail on the tongue.
 
ProVobis said:
In the Chicago area, in addition to SJC, there is The Oratory of Our Lady Mother of the Church in Willow Springs, IL

Done in Latin with readings and sermon in Polish. Organ, communion by intinction.
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Saint Mary Oratory in Rockford, IL. Traditional Latin Masses, communion on the tongue kneeling at an altar rail.
 
EphelDuath said:
Hi folks. I was just pondering upon the fact that there’s several resources online for finding a TLM, but not really any for traditional and reverent OF Masses. I was supposing that maybe people here on CAF could list some themselves?
Click to expand...
Even if you could compile such a directory, you’d have to put it in a loose leaf binder.

Its a largely subjective call to start with and add it to the fact that staff and people’s attitudes change with time, it would be a difficult kind of thing to put together.

With Latin masses, of course, its either in Latin or its not, pretty straight forward and easy to assess.
 
EphelDuath said:
Some characteristics that I’m speaking of (but not all of them are required, certainly):
  • Most of the prayers of the Mass chanted
  • Eucharistic Prayer ad orientem
  • Gregorian chant, traditional polyphony and/or organ music
  • Holy Communion encouraged to be received kneeling on the tongue
  • Parts of the Ordinary in Latin
  • Homilies are doctrinally orthodox
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No good will come of sticking the label “reverent” on these characteristics. It is bound to offend people. :eek:

However, in Toronto the Oratorians celebrate the OF like this at the two parishes they run: St. Vincent de Paul and Holy Family.
 
Benedictine monasteries of the Solesmes congregation, and many other Benedictine congregations, are your friend.

For instance the three of that congregation in my area (St-Benoît-du-Lac near Magog, Quebec, Benedictine men; Ste-Marie-des-Deux-Montagnes just northwest of Montreal, and Westfield, in Vermont, both Benedictine nuns) have Gregorian chant for the propers and ordinary, chanted prayers and readings in the vernacular (French), reverent liturgies with incense, etc. and the nuns also have Mass entirely in Latin a couple of days a week, all in the OF. And not dependent on the whims of the pastor.

There are also Masses in Montreal with sacred polyphony if your tastes lean that way, for instance at the cathedral and at Notre-Dame basilica. And in Sherbrooke, QC, where the schola I belong to sings, there’s at least one Mass a month in Gregorian chant from September through May. I also know of other similar scholas across Canada.

Not nearly enough of course but they are out there.
 
maryjk said:
OF or EF?

Because there is a difference.
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Could you define the difference. I am a fairly new catholic and don’t know what EF or OF stand for or what the difference is. Thank you.
 
EphelDuath said:
Some characteristics that I’m speaking of (but not all of them are required, certainly):
  • Most of the prayers of the Mass chanted
  • Eucharistic Prayer ad orientem
  • Gregorian chant, traditional polyphony and/or organ music
  • Holy Communion encouraged to be received kneeling on the tongue
  • Parts of the Ordinary in Latin
  • Homilies are doctrinally orthodox
Click to expand...
Anyone who lives within driving distance of a church that has all of the above should consider themselves very blessed indeed.

In the Los Angeles area, Sts Peter and Paul church (Wilmington, CA) is probably one of the best churches in the LA area. Communion on the tongue at the altar rail, some prayers in Latin and a priest who is not afraid to preach the truth from the pulpit.

No such churches here in San Diego, except of course St Anne’s, but that’s exclusively FSSP.

I totally hear you though about having a directory of sorts that lists “traditional” OF Masses. I don’t think there is such a thing. One rule of thumb I use is to see how often a church offers confession. Any church that offers confession before each Mass tends to be more orthodox than average, although I’m sure there are other orthodox ones out there with the “standard” 1 hour on Saturday confession schedule.
 
Forgot to mention a couple more:

In Reno, NV: St Thomas Aquinas cathedral downtown. Very reverent Mass, some Latin prayers, no altar rail for communion, but still undoubtedly one of the best churches in the area. When I was there for Mass most of the prayers were sung. This is now my go-to church when skiing in Tahoe.

Denver, CO: Holy Ghost church downtown has always been considered one of the most orthodox in the area. I haven’t been there in years, but it’s a good place to try if someone is looking for a traditional church in that area.
 
LisaB said:
Forgot to mention a couple more:

In Reno, NV: St Thomas Aquinas cathedral downtown. Very reverent Mass, some Latin prayers, no altar rail for communion, but still undoubtedly one of the best churches in the area. When I was there for Mass most of the prayers were sung. This is now my go-to church when skiing in Tahoe.

Denver, CO: Holy Ghost church downtown has always been considered one of the most orthodox in the area. I haven’t been there in years, but it’s a good place to try if someone is looking for a traditional church in that area.
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Thanks for the tips. Is there an FSSP or any EF Masses in the Lake Tahoe area at all?
Does the Cathedral in Reno have altar boys only or both boys & girls? What about confession?
When you are skiing in Tahoe, how long does it take to get to the Cathedral?
Thanks for the help. Pax 🙂
 
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