B
Bezant
Guest
Do the negative actions of the Church hierarchy disqualify her authority?
- Status
L
Lapey
Guest
No, the authority is in the magisteriem, not the men. There are bad people in every walk of life.
Jesus didn’t tell Peter, “I give you the keys of the kingdom…until you screw up, then I take them back and give them to a non denominational, bible believeing church created by a man in the 21st century.”
S
Sheadad
Guest
Think about how masterful the Holy Spirit is. Man has continually turned away from Him from the beginning. And what did the Lord expect after Christ instituted the Church? That man would all of the sudden go on the straight and narrow? Of course he knew, and does know our ways, the tough part is for us to keep in mind His ways and to acknowledge Him always. Even in the heart of the most disappointing and possibly most trying and frightening times. Nonetheless, amazing how the Holy Spirit guides the Church through the Magesterium in a way that man could not do alone. The fact that the Church did survive through the last 2000 years is proof of Devine Providence. Here’s one to be grateful for; thank God that His spirit actually protected the Church against falling apart so that during this time of technology (when used inappropriately), corrupt media and the general breakdown of moral structure, so that I would have somewhere to turn. Instead of being alone in our faith on earth the Church is there to embrace us and point us towards Christ.
J
JRKH
Guest
Interesting question.
Short Answer is NO.
In the Bible, we are told in Mt 18:15-18 that we are to take our difficult problems to the Church and then we are to “listen to The Church” which has teh authority to “bind and loose”…“whatever”.
The term Church, in Greek, Ekklesia, means community - or more precisely a community or group called together for a specific purpose.
So - my reading of this suggests that we are to listen to the consensus decision of the group (or trusted representatives of the group).
The Magisterium of the Church acts as a sorting house, repostitory, sounding board, reaseach, and decision making arm of The Church. It, as an institution responsible for the promulgation of teaching, is never effected in any meaningful way by trends or by the sinful natures of individuals. This is because the magisterium works within a fairly stringent framework and are not dependant on the whims of men, culture or societal pressure.
Sinful actions by individuals, even by groups of individuals, do not effect the teachings of the Church.
Peace
James
E
ESMDHokie77
Guest
only a Church with Divine protection could have its members screw up badly time and time again, and still have lasted for 2 millennia.
R
Roman_Catholic_1
Guest
Did it disqualify Peter? Their sinful actions create scandal, give ammunition to those who protest the Church (I am not using the word protest to refer only to Protestants, but to all those who protest the Church), puts doubt into the faithful but it doesn’t disqualify their authority. The Church dealt with this question with the Donatists and I recommend that you read up it if you are still curious.
Welcome to the forums,
God bless
G
GaryTaylor
Guest
R
RyanBlack
Guest
No, but they certainly can damage credibility and the ability to bear effective witness to the truth of the Gospel of our Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ.
R
Rawb
Guest
Ryan Black said it best. No, “dirty laundry” doesn’t disqualify a hierarchy from still containing the truth. In the Old Testament, for example, the Prophet King David wasn’t exactly clean of scandal, but that didn’t mean that Jewish Temple Worship was not true.
Are you saying if the Catholic Church’s hierarchy sins, it does not effect her claims of having the fullness of Truth, but if any other Church’s hierarchy sins, it absolutely effects their claims of having the Truth? Isn’t that a bit of a double standard?
W
wisdomseeker
Guest
If it did, than the world would not be bothered by her. As we can see hte world still fighting her like never before. The Master said that the gates of hell would not prevail against His Church. That is something to ponder upon. As one poster point out to the David’s woes. Israel is a living proof that we are not perfect. Israelites turned agaisnt over and over again but God never left them for another nation. God always worked in bringing His people back, this is because He made a promise to Israel. The same here with teh Chruch. Jesus made a promise to HIs Church. we can trust that Jesus will never leave HIs Church. I dont care how may people outside claim He did. Jesus is no lier. That we can be sure. It is just a matter who do you believe? Jesus or man?
S
SteveVH
Guest
If that were the case there would be no authority on earth. Let him without sin cast the first stone.
C
cooterhein
Guest
Could you be a bit more specific about the nature of this authority? I’m inclined to say there’s no authority to begin with that can be disqualified. There’s problems inherent to the structure itself that causes it to be inferior, and to a certain extent, it doesn’t matter who’s plugged into the system or what they do- the starting point is one of null authority no matter what. Bad behavior and zero accountability certainly makes things worse, but I wouldn’t say it’s a forfeiture of authoritative paradise.
Of course, this assessment may depend on exactly what you mean by “authority.”
C
cooterhein
Guest
The Ethiopian Orthodox Church lasted for 2 millennia. We have a tendency to ignore them just as much as we ignore anything else in Ethiopia.
And of course there’s the other half of the Roman Empire. You know, the half that has zero reformations on their resume, whereas your half has experienced a Catholic Reformation and gone through a Protestant Reformation.
Of these three candidates, all have lasted 2 millennia. All claim apostolic succession. Only one of them has gone through things called “reformations.” Could you tell me why that kind of survival is more impressive than the kind that avoids these things by virtue of not needing them?
C
Credo_in_Deum
Guest
Well it looks like the question has been answered. I wonder though if anyone else thought of Don Henley when they read the title Dirty Laundry?
C
cooterhein
Guest
Yeah, I know. That doesn’t mean they’re bad examples. They’re good examples because they’re survived the same amount of time or slightly longer.
Maybe because I see that it’s necessary for me to be capable of being moderately functional with a Catholic POV while I spend time on a Catholic forum?
Y
YankeeRC
Guest
Utimately that decision depends on the judgement of the individual. Scandal does not disqualify the ability to lead in and of its own. A person may choose to shut theirself off to someone who commits scandal, however.
If a plane were crashing and a pilot had to be found but the only person available to fly had a past conviction of assisting a pedofile, murderer, etc. and it was one persons call wether he should be allowed to fly at all… that kind of judgement.
If a plane were crashing and a pilot had to be found but the only person available to fly had a past conviction of assisting a pedofile, murderer, etc. and it was one persons call wether he should be allowed to fly at all… that kind of judgement.
N
Nicea325
Guest
Would you apply the same to Peter? Did he not deny Jesus three times? What about the other Apostles who were not around when he was at trial and the crucifixion? The old saying must be remembered:
Jesus picked the **best office **for the man,not the best man for the office.
B
Bezant
Guest
Interesting responses so far, everyone.
Good question. When I say authority, I assume the Church’s authority to teach and define faith and morals; so the question is, if the Church heirarchy commits grave sins, does that disqualify their authority to teach what’s right and wrong?
P
Prodigal_Son1
Guest
Why did Paul write the Hebrews, telling them to obey their prelates if there was no authority to begin with?
A point for the OP. Christ chose and appointed Judas, does this disqualify Christ?
J
JRKH
Guest
This is an interesting question and one that comes up regularly in Catholic Protestant discussions about past popes who have been sinful men…but there is a very interesting dynamic involved that is worth considering.
Those men who were the worst sinners generally either a) were not overly concerned with teaching on faith and morals, or b) somehow managed to keep the two seperate. More often than not it was “a”, but “b” is worth a word or two.
Here at CAF there are many onderful people giving advice. To read our responses one might get the idea that some of us are regular “saints”, nearly perfect in every way…I have received a number of compliments from people… (excuse my apparent bragging)
Yet I, and the other regulars here, are FAR from perfect. We give advice from our wealth of knowledge gained by error, often sinful error. Likewise we give advice from Church teaching and how one should respond. Never mind that we failed to respond correctly in the same situation…
What I am driving at is this. A sinful person in the hierachy of the Church retains a respect for the teachings and ideals of the Church because he fully expects to stand before God and answer for his acts. Therefore he doesn’t mess around with said teaching.
Peace
James
- Status