Above you said heaven is eternal and so is hell. Does that mean that all of the abodes in heaven or hell are eternal or are some of the abodes temporary? Are there eternal abodes in heaven and temporary abodes in heaven? Are there eternal abodes in hell and temporary abodes in hell?Thanks Sid…
Where does it happen (the temporary punishment)?
Well, according to the EOC, it happens wherever God places, or leads the soul of the departed person. It’s up to Him at the point of His particular judgement…
We understand these “places” to be the many abodes which exist (eternally) in both Heaven & Hell.
There is no other place!
Please note also that EO readers here have been advised by Catholic bretheren, that the mere presence of something in the Catechism of the RCC (such as descriptions of the temporary, purifying “fire” in the Catechism of the Council of Trent) do not represent RCC “dogma”.
Our Catechisn certainly reflects our beliefs, and teaching. It should be noted that it does not say anything about the release of souls at the expiation of the pureification process. Rather, it states, when God in His “Divine Righteousness” judges it should occur. Not an objective period determined by purification, but a wholly subjective period, in the hands of God alone.
I am not proving the existence of purgatory. But what I am saying is that from my standpoint and how I look at it, Purgatory makes a whole lot of sense. I have already explained why.Hi there Tiber Swimmer!!!
Well, we EO don’t think so - and our teachers don’t either. We think they speak of a distinct “Third Place”…
But even if they actually do agree with us, and the pre-schism teaching for the first 1000 - 1500 years of the unified New Testament Church - there is a lot of associated teaching about the place of purgatory (what happens there, how and why) that we EO don’t accept.
I would be interested to hear RCC opinion on this, as Marduk seems to be having a bet each way (talking about things ‘not inconsistent’ with the Beatific Vision teaching), whilst Sid and Dvdjs seem to be arguing the opposite - and try in “prove” the existence of RC purgatory - or at least that we EO agree with them on it.
That’s not possible of course - even if the RCC mode of argument here vacillates between “dogma”, “angostia”, theologumena or opinion or any other thing.
The goal posts keep moving, and the sands keep shifting in this discussion. We EOC members believe that dogma is very easy to rely upon because it saves thought, reasoning and rational analysis.
I don’t see an answer to the question I asked above concerning the abodes in heaven and in hell and as to whether or not they are temporal or eternal, according to Orthodox teaching. Further, I asked what does the Orthodox Church say about who will be saved and who will go to hell. I thought that the topic of this thread concerned discussion on Orthodox teaching, but if anyone wants to know why Catholics believe in Purgatory, I would recommend the following links:Sure Sid,
As you believe that there are no souls in Heaven who have been guilty of “venial” sin (we do not), please let us know what has happened to the actual “abode” you have been kept in when you get to Heaven. This should happen some time after the Final Judgement, but may be before that time, depending which abode you are placed in, and God’s Mercy.
So let us know what God does with the abode when it’s empty - cos we don’t know.
We also don’t know if you believe that RCC teaches purgatory is a distinct third place, where temporary fire purifies the soul - but we do know you think 'purgatory" believable and makes sense.
So pray tell, what do you believe your Church teaches, and what do you think makes sense about purgatory?
I will come back to the middle of your post, in which some interesting points worth discussing are made. However, when you embed these interesting remarks the odd stuff quoted above, I begin to think that you are here just to play. So before I get to the meet let me point out, for the record, that:All right then Dvdjs…
As you please… but for the record, I hav) ed understanding of EOC teaching.
I have also corrected certain misconceptions you have about the teachings of the Roman and Byzantine Catholic Churches re purgatory.
Actually, your posts have not worked to convince any EO reader of the truth of what you say - and caused a few RC readers to question it too.
Your ‘say so’ is very far from enough - as I (and other EO posts) have shown.
Our differences with Roman teaching on purgatory have nothing to do with protestantism or sola scriptura. We are not as ‘Romeaphobic’ as many protestants are regarding what happens to souls after death.
Our EO concept of souls being “asleep” is not the Protestant “soul sleep” or “conditional immortality” doctrine as i have already explained - with quotes etc…
What is clear, is that you apply a very different standard to the way you argue, than those you expect of the Orthodox.
…
Dvdjs… if you wish to discuss or debate the details, feel free. Otherwise I’m very happy to do what the Byzantine Catholics did when they joined the Roman Catholic Church - Like them, I’m happy to “Agree to Disagree” about purgatory - and not debate it with you further if that helps.
You really ought to give some references for these claims. I read that the OC is reticent about the details of what goes on between he particular and general judgments. You are not, but perhaps you are going outside the realm of things agreed upon within the EOC…Here are some main points of EO difference with the RCC on Hades/ Purgatory:
***1. The soul is not changed by spending time in Hades.
2. Only God’s judgment of a soul may change whilst the soul is in Hades.
4. God’s judgement is not immutable - and never has been, which is why we pray for the dead.
These are all related, and point 4 is the key. This would be a point of disagreement if true. I am not so sure that it is, and ask others more knowledgeable to weigh in. The theological problem is this: We say that God is complete, perfect in His justice, mercy, and love. If God changes his judgment, has He not become, as compared to in His prior mindset, more merciful, etc.? Whence His prior mercy was not complete and perfect - a contradiction that is resolved by saying the souls change. And some EO say precisely this:
I have seen other Orthodox sites, particularly Greek Orthodox, that directly repudiate the Hieromonk’s statement. But they do not go on to say that God changes; rather they avoid claims about the efficacy of prayer for the dead, claiming only that we do it to thank God and because we are attached to the departed. goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith7076; or that the means by which our prayers help is a mystery. saint-spyridon.com/note5.htm. I have yet to find anything of a theological nature that talks of God’s mutability - apart from clear anthropomorphisms in non-theological discussions. Overall, this issue appears to be a matter in the EO that is not dogmatic. Thus in light of the disagreement on whether or not souls change within the EOC, this issue cannot be a point of honest, communion breaking contention between the EOC and CC.The soul thus can change its state as it awaits the General Judgment. Hieromonk Dionysios stmichaelacademy.org/theo/stjd.htm
Fine. If you don’t like the biblical metaphor of a refiner’s fire, the CC is not haggling on the matter; it does not regard fire as dogmatic.
- There is no temporary purifying fire in Hades - only eternal fire of Hell, in Hell.
The dogmatic teaching of the Catholic Church on the doctrine of Purgatory is limited and specific. In 1439 the Council of Florence declared:Code:It has likewise defined that, if those truly penitent have departed in the love of God, before they have made satisfaction by worthy fruits of penance for sins of commission and omission, the souls of these are cleansed after death by purgatorial punishments; and so that they may be released from punishments of this kind, the suffrages of the living faithful are of advantage to them, namely, the sacrifices of Masses, prayers, and almsgiving, and other works of piety, which are customarily performed by the faithful for other faithful according to the institutions of the Church.(great article)Formulated in the Western idiom of satisfaction and punishment, it is unclear precisely how the Eastern participants might have interpreted the decree, but it is important to note the omission of spatial language (Purgatory is not referred to as a place) and of the instrument of purification (material fire is not mentioned). pontifications.wordpress.com/purgatory/
- Souls are not ‘concious’ of their purification in Hades, and cannot participate in such purification - there is no such thing as “passive purification”. Any soul purification requires active participation of that soul - during life.
5a. Souls are asleep in Hades in the sense that they “rest” there in the Presence (light), or outside of the Presence (darkness). Torment in Hades is not a redemptive punishment.
Not so sure.5b. Souls are also aware of prayers said on their behalf by the living.
It is clear that there are, again, divergent EO opinions on this point, and some are very similar to the CC. Your point on passive purification is unclear, and perhaps moot if you, unlike some other Orthodox, don’t believe that purification occurs at all.There are some Orthodox who have argued that the soul does not pass through the tollhouses, but rather is in a state of slumber. This term ‘slumber’ means that the soul is inactive, and as Father Michael Azkoul, one of the proponents of the soul slumber theory states, “(the soul) is in a condition of inactivity, a sort of inactivity in which it does not function, hear, or see.” Father Seraphim argues against this notion, comparing it to the common misconceptions of the Adventists and Jehovah’s Witnesses. He states rather that the souk is quite alive and aware. To give evidence to this argument he qoutes from Saint Dorotheos, “(the soul) remembers everything at its exit from this body and more clearly and distinctly once freed from the earthliness of the body.” He cites Saint John Cassian, " (the soul) becomes yet more alive (after death)." We must ask if the idea of soul slumber is true, then what is the purpose of prayer for the dead if they are in a state in which their souls are inactive and cannot change state. The reasoning of Father Michael Azkoul and those ahderents to his position has no solid patristic basis nor is it sensible in light of the Church’s prayer for the dead. Also we must realize that even Christ Himself descended to Hades, and that his soul was certainly not inactive after his death that was life-restoring. In the Divine Liturgy, the priest prays, " In the tomb with the body, in Hades with the soul, on the throne with the Father and the Spirit, was thou, O Christ infinitely filling everything." This prayer in itself disproves any notion of soul slumber. Lastly as recorded in Saint Archbishop John Maximovitch’s writing on the Life After Death, he argues as well that the soul does remain conscious. He also quotes from Saint John Cassian who sets forth clearly the active state of the soul: " Souls after the separation from this body are not idle, do not remain without consciousness; this is proved by the Gospel of the rich man and Lazarus…The souls of the dead not only do not lose their consciousness, they do not even lose their dispositions." stmichaelacademy.org/theo/stjd.htm
But neither does His forgiveness of our sinsipso facto makes us Saints. We can agree, I think, that while on earth our attachment to our sinful ways still needs to be purged, through prayer, asceticism, etc. That is out struggle for theosis. If you believe that the soul doesn’t change while in Hades, we are stuck with a disagreement. The question is: what about the EOs who think that souls do change in Hades and think that theosis continues in Hades?
- There is no such thing as partial or conditional forgiveness - once God forgives, it’s final and he forgets the sin.
This point is not different from the CC.
- There are souls in Heaven who have committed all manner of sin which has been forgiven and forgotten by God.
- Souls are not at large once resting in Hades - cannot visit the earthly plane or communicate with the living.
There are no shortage of EO authors who look at the 3 and 40 day ideas as mere allegory or pious legend. Just as many Catholics would think about world travel after 40 days. I don’t doubt that these are points of disagreement for some doctrinaire EOs and Catholics, but does anyone hold these dogamtically?
- Before resting in Hades, souls may be at large for between 3 and 40 days.
Actually Sid,I don’t see an answer to the question I asked above concerning the abodes in heaven and in hell and as to whether or not they are temporal or eternal, according to Orthodox teaching. Further, I asked what does the Orthodox Church say about who will be saved and who will go to hell. I thought that the topic of this thread concerned discussion on Orthodox teaching, but if anyone wants to know why Catholics believe in Purgatory, I would recommend the following links:
scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html
catholic.com/library/Roots_of_Purgatory.asp
catholic.com/library/Purgatory.asp
staycatholic.com/ecf_purgatory.htm
cin.org/users/jgallegos/purg.htm
bringyou.to/apologetics/a105.htm
In a forum like this, arguing from the specific and extrapolating to the general is rarely legitimate. Arguing from the isolated, non-accepted exception and extrapolating to the general accepted rule is also not helpful for mutual understanding of overall realities either.
- The source you quote in support of your argument that the EOC believes that the soul itself changes in Hades (or Purgatory) does not represent EOC canonical teaching. The same source argues in favor of Aerial Tollhouses - which is a similar, associated teaching. It does not represent EO mainstream belief, it is not widespread opinion, and most Orthodox have never heard of such a thing. An insignificant minority exception in fact.
That would be like me coming into this forum, and using the arguments and opinions of the Catholic Sedevacantists - to judge Vatican II, Novus Ordo and the Popes - since the time that they claim the Papal Throne became automatically vacant because of Papal Heresy. I could then argue that because some minority Catholics reject the legitimacy of the recent Papacy… there are no further impediments to unity between us.
- Your comparison to fringe Catholic groups has a major flaw. We have magisterium that provides an extensive resource for sorting our what is magisterially Catholic and what isn’t. I can point to councils endorsed by the Vatican, the publications ot the Vatican including the CCC. EOs can do something similar but it is limited to ecumenical councils really. And by the way, let’s remeber thatyou were the one who claimed generality of the specific ideas of St. Padre Pio Society.
- You may make a claim about the belief of EOs, but do you really expect me to take your “specific” claim and accept it as general? Especially when you argue that it is absurd to do so in the case of the Hieromonk. Go figure. If you want to speak for canonical Orthodoxy show me a canon.
- I made and make no claim about the “general” teaching in Orthdoxy. I simply point out that there are diverse opinions, which include ideas that you, personally, rule out. My conclusion is not that these opinions contrary to yours are the prevalent ones, simply that you are wrong to be ruling them out.
- The immutability of God on the basis of His perfect Mercy etc… This must be understood in the context of His Omnipotence, Omniscience and Omnipresence. We believe that to argue that Judgement cannot change (based on His Will) is an error. The plain biblical teaching here, is that through the ages, the rules by which, and circumstances and standards of judgement of God have irrefutably changed towards man. His convenants with Adam, Abraham, Moses, David and the new covenant of Christ are examples of this.
While this question may or may not be important to some people, I think it is a pressing issue as to what a person must do in order to save his soul. What is the teaching of the Orthodox Church on this? After all, this is what a Church is supposed to do, help you to attain eternal salvation, is it not? Who will be saved and who will not be saved is a question of utmost importance to each person. And the Orthodox here have mentioned the temporary abodes, but have not explained how you can have temporary abodes in eternal domains.How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?
There is in the creed the belief in the “resurrection of the body” at the end of time. I don’t want to get speculative, but one would imagine that when all this takes place, “hell” as such (or “lower hades”) disappears, along with Abraham’s bosom. One book that I read sounded something like this: God loves all, but those who reject his love will encounter suffering where those who do not reject his love will be in paradise, even though, from a certain point of view, the only difference is the recipient, while all the other conditions are the same.So far, I don’t see any clear answer to questions about Orthodox belief:
According to Orthodox belief:
- Who will be saved and who will not be saved?
- How can there be temporary abodes in either heaven or hell, if heaven and hell are both eternal?
eirenikon.wordpress.com/2008/04/10/bishop-hilarion-gods-mercy-is-immeasurable/Cardinal Schonborn and Bishop Hilarion agreed that St. Issac’s teachings were not well known by most Catholics, but the Cardinal said this doesn’t mean that we cannot “share our understanding of God’s limitless love.” Asked point blank if he could accept the idea that God’s love can make even hell temporary, the Cardinal responded, “How can there be a problem with any proposition that presents The Divine Mercy as the limitless manifestation of Love? I welcome and learn from [Bishop Hilarion’s] teaching.”
John this sounds correct to me.There is in the creed the belief in the “resurrection of the body” at the end of time. I don’t want to get speculative, but one would imagine that when all this takes place, “hell” as such (or “lower hades”) disappears, along with Abraham’s bosom. One book that I read sounded something like this: God loves all, but those who reject his love will encounter suffering where those who do not reject his love will be in paradise, even though, from a certain point of view, the only difference is the recipient, while all the other conditions are the same.
I know you don’t really mean to ask this silly question as I’ve heard that it is a question from like the middle ages or something.How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?
If hell disappears, how can it be said to be eternal?There is in the creed the belief in the “resurrection of the body” at the end of time. I don’t want to get speculative, but one would imagine that when all this takes place, “hell” as such (or “lower hades”) disappears, along with Abraham’s bosom. One book that I read sounded something like this: God loves all, but those who reject his love will encounter suffering where those who do not reject his love will be in paradise, even though, from a certain point of view, the only difference is the recipient, while all the other conditions are the same.
Here’s an interesting link on St. Isaac of Ninehah, from a respected Russian Church prelate and theologian…
orthodoxeurope.org/page/14/144.aspx#2
worldmercycongress.org/story.php?NID=3132
eirenikon.wordpress.com/2008/04/10/bishop-hilarion-gods-mercy-is-immeasurable/
This talk was presented at a Divine Mercy congress and he got a standing ovation.
There will come a time when the temporary abodes (Hades) disappear, and
There is a wonderful resource book called “A Dictionary of Earlly Christian Beliefs”. There is a section in it called ‘Eternal Punishments and Reward’. On page 242 in the right hand column at the topic is a quote by Papias as quoted by Eusebius that discusses the different abodes on heaven and uses Jesus’ words to explain how people end up in one heavenly abode as opposed to another. In this sectio there are many other quotes discussing this, but I’ve got to get my kids to the movies on time…Happy Friday everyone!I don’t see an answer to the question I asked above concerning the abodes in heaven and in hell and as to whether or not they are temporal or eternal, according to Orthodox teaching.
Are these abodes temporary or eternal?There is a wonderful resource book called “A Dictionary of Earlly Christian Beliefs”. There is a section in it called ‘Eternal Punishments and Reward’. On page 242 in the right hand column at the topic is a quote by Papias as quoted by Eusebius that discusses the different abodes on heaven and uses Jesus’ words to explain how people end up in one heavenly abode as opposed to another. In this sectio there are many other quotes discussing this, but I’ve got to get my kids to the movies on time…Happy Friday everyone!
47.5How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?