Disagreeing with encyclicals/things in the Catechism

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Tomcmaj said:
This is the best post I have read since joining this forum.
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Wow, then you have have not been reading a great deal of the forum. I have seen far better posts than this particular post.

God bless.
 
Ahimsa said:
What the deacon should have said is that (1) each Catholic has a duty to inform his/her conscience about what the Church teaches; and (2) each Catholic then has a duty to act according to his or her conscience or “moral compass”.

The key idea being that each of us has our own moral compass, but this compass must be informed by learning about what the Church (or synagogue, or mosque, or temple) teaches about morality.

Once that is done, we have a duty to act according to our informed conscience.
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This sounds like moral relativism justified by what one feels despite of what is ontologically morally evil.

For example, If I felt that it was okay in my conscience to go ahead and murder people that have different views, should I do it? I could say that it was justified in self-defense because their views are different from mine, or somethig to that nature. I mean it’s okay with my consicence and I don’t mind what the Magisteriual Teaching of the Church is, because my conscience is the final arbiter.

This is utterly ridiculous and insane, and does not lead to peace. God is the one who provides the Moral Standard for all acts be they good or evil. He alone is Perfect. We are imperfect.

[NOTE: THIS IS NOT MY POSITION, IT IS ONLY USED FOR AN EXAMPLE] I standy by God’s grace with the Magisterium of the Catholic Church.

God bless.
 
Everyone has opinions, and I don’t see any problem with disagreeing with some things. Like, the core things about Catholicism are important, of course. But just because I don’t agree with the church’s teaching on homosexuality (please don’t let this start something, please don’t let this start something…), does that make me any less of a Catholic? Heck no! I’m not acting upon it, or telling people it’s okay. I just know that personally, I think the teaching is wrong. That’s just my opinion, and I see nothing wrong with having it.
 
jmcrae said:
Ask him to produce a copy of whatever document he is talking about. I seriously doubt that any Pope has ever actively commanded the faithful to own slaves. What if some member of the faithful were, himself, a slave? (ie: St. Patrick, when he was a teenager.) How could he then own a slave? 🤷
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Its an old command, in 1452 Pope Nicholas issued a papal bull granting a king, or leader, from spain or portugal cant remember which, stating that he was to reduce any “Saracens, pagans and any other unbelievers” to slavery, along with their families into perpetuaty(sp?)( forever)🤷 That legitamized the slave trade with the Catholic church.

God Bless

Dom.

PS: Just add that this only lasted 10 years, in 1462 Pius II decreed that slavery was “a great crime”.
 
DominicStephen said:
Its an old command, in 1452 Pope Nicholas issued a papal bull granting a king, or leader, from spain or portugal cant remember which, stating that he was to reduce any “Saracens, pagans and any other unbelievers” to slavery, along with their families into perpetuaty(sp?)( forever)🤷 That legitamized the slave trade with the Catholic church.

God Bless

Dom.

PS: Just add that this only lasted 10 years, in 1462 Pius II decreed that slavery was “a great crime”.
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hummm…

… if you read the book I mention…it was condemned over and over…

Here too an article …but this is getting us off topic.

catholic.com/thisrock/1999/9907fea2.asp
 
Bookcat said:
Canon Law (hence the legal wording):

Can. 750 §1. A person must believe with divine and Catholic faith all those things contained in the word of God, written or handed on, that is, in the one deposit of faith entrusted to the Church, and at the same time proposed as divinely revealed either by the solemn magisterium of the Church or by its ordinary and universal magisterium which is manifested by the common adherence of the Christian faithful under the leadership of the sacred magisterium; therefore all are bound to avoid any doctrines whatsoever contrary to them.

§2. Each and every thing which is proposed definitively by the magisterium of the Church concerning the doctrine of faith and morals, that is, each and every thing which is required to safeguard reverently and to expound faithfully the same deposit of faith, is also to be firm-ly embraced and retained; therefore, one who rejects those propositions which are to be held definitively is opposed to the doctrine of the Catholic Church.

Can. 751 Heresy is the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of baptism of some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.

Can. 752 Although not an assent of faith, a religious submission of the intellect and will must be given to a doctrine which the Supreme Pontiff or the college of bishops declares concerning faith or morals when they exercise the authentic magisterium, even if they do not intend to proclaim it by definitive act; therefore, the Christian faithful are to take care to avoid those things which do not agree with it.

vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P2H.HTM
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This puts it succinctly.
 
Little_One0307 said:
If I felt that it was okay in my conscience to go ahead and murder people that have different views, should I do it?
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People who feel it is okay to murder people generally do so.

Fortunately we have governments who will mete out appropriate punishments that, if they don’t dissuade murderers, will at least punish them.
 
Tomcmaj said:
People who feel it is okay to murder people generally do so.

Fortunately we have governments who will mete out appropriate punishments that, if they don’t dissuade murderers, will at least punish them.
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Sadly such is not always the case…

and more sadly many think the murder of the weakest little ones is ok…
 
Bookcat said:
hummm…

… if you read the book I mention…it was condemned over and over…

Here too an article …but this is getting us off topic.

catholic.com/thisrock/1999/9907fea2.asp
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It was only Nicholas as far as I can tell who issued such a command, but it was issued, and not condemned until 10 years later. Simple history, MPO if your going to follow a path then learn as much as you can, after all this path is for eternity.

It wasnt off topic by the way second paragraph of Milkbars OP “a Pope supposedly wrote in an encyclical a long time ago that Catholics should buy slaves. What was he talking about?”

I answered, on topic.

Peace

Dom.
 
"Paul illustrates the same idea of a necessary renewal of our way of being human in two passages of his Letter to the Ephesians; let us therefore reflect on them briefly. In the Letter’s fourth chapter, the Apostle tells us that with Christ we must attain adulthood, a mature faith. We can no longer be “children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine…” (4: 14). Paul wants Christians to have a “responsible” and “adult faith”. The words “adult faith” in recent decades have formed a widespread slogan. It is often meant in the sense of the attitude of those who no longer listen to the Church and her Pastors but autonomously choose what they want to believe and not to believe hence a do-it-yourself faith. And it is presented as a “courageous” form of self-expression against the Magisterium of the Church. In fact, however, no courage is needed for this because one may always be certain of public applause. Rather, courage is needed to adhere to the Church’s faith, even if this contradicts the “logic” of the contemporary world. This is the non-conformism of faith which Paul calls an “adult faith”. It is the faith that he desires. On the other hand, he describes chasing the winds and trends of the time as infantile. Thus, being committed to the inviolability of human life from its first instant, thereby radically opposing the principle of violence also precisely in the defence of the most defenceless human creatures is part of an adult faith. It is part of an adult faith to recognize marriage between a man and a woman for the whole of life as the Creator’s ordering, newly re-established by Christ. Adult faith does not let itself be carried about here and there by any trend. It opposes the winds of fashion. It knows that these winds are not the breath of the Holy Spirit; it knows that the Spirit of God is expressed and manifested in communion with Jesus Christ. However, here too Paul does not stop at saying “no”, but rather leads us to the great “yes”. He describes the mature, truly adult faith positively with the words: “speaking the truth in love” (cf. Eph 4: 15). The new way of thinking, given to us by faith, is first and foremost a turning towards the truth. The power of evil is falsehood. The power of faith, the power of God, is the truth. The truth about the world and about ourselves becomes visible when we look to God. And God makes himself visible to us in the Face of Jesus Christ. In looking at Christ, we recognize something else: truth and love are inseparable. In God both are inseparably one; it is precisely this that is the essence of God. For Christians, therefore, truth and love go together. Love is the test of truth. We should always measure ourselves anew against this criterion, so that truth may become love and love may make us truthful. "

~ Pope Benedict XVI

The whole thing is wonderful…one of my very favorites…do not miss a word of it:

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/homilies/2009/documents/hf_ben-xvi_hom_20090628_chius-anno-paolino_en.html
 
Bookcat said:
yes…but to miss the reality of such a mass homicide…is very bad.

And there are those who say my conscience says it is ok…

sadly.
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I see that we could easily get off topic here!

I’m not sure that any kind of mass homicide negates the importance of each of us having our own moral compass.
 
Tomcmaj said:
I see that we could easily get off topic here!

I’m not sure that any kind of mass homicide negates the importance of each of us having our own moral compass.
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yes of course…the conscience…and a Catholic is to form their conscience with the teachings of the Church…they are to live these teachings…put them into life.

To be “what they are” …to live accordingly.

See the quote above …it is great!
 
If you really want to get into the origins of this business about Catholic dissidents in the Church, try reading George Wiegel’s “The Courage to Be Catholic.” He brilliantly charts the course of the breakdown of unity in the Church’s teachings from Vatican II all the way to the present. He focuses on liberal theologians who led the way and the many priests, deacons, sisters and laity who followed their lead. The problem really began in 1968 when Paul VI and Vatican Prefect for the Congregation of the Clergy Cardinal John Wright grossly mishandled a case of clerical discipline in the archdiocese of Washington, D.C., at that time led by Cardinal Boyle who had the right solution but no back-up from the Vatican. The mess never did get cleaned up and we are plagued today with the still rippling consequences.
 
Bookcat said:
"Paul illustrates the same idea of a necessary renewal of our way of being human in two passages of his Letter to the Ephesians; let us therefore reflect on them briefly. In the Letter’s fourth chapter, the Apostle tells us that with Christ we must attain adulthood, a mature faith. We can no longer be “children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine…” (4: 14). Paul wants Christians to have a “responsible” and “adult faith”. The words “adult faith” in recent decades have formed a widespread slogan. It is often meant in the sense of the attitude of those who no longer listen to the Church and her Pastors but autonomously choose what they want to believe and not to believe hence a do-it-yourself faith. And it is presented as a “courageous” form of self-expression against the Magisterium of the Church. In fact, however, no courage is needed for this because one may always be certain of public applause. Rather, courage is needed to adhere to the Church’s faith, even if this contradicts the “logic” of the contemporary world. This is the non-conformism of faith which Paul calls an “adult faith”. It is the faith that he desires. On the other hand, he describes chasing the winds and trends of the time as infantile. Thus, being committed to the inviolability of human life from its first instant, thereby radically opposing the principle of violence also precisely in the defence of the most defenceless human creatures is part of an adult faith. It is part of an adult faith to recognize marriage between a man and a woman for the whole of life as the Creator’s ordering, newly re-established by Christ. Adult faith does not let itself be carried about here and there by any trend. It opposes the winds of fashion. It knows that these winds are not the breath of the Holy Spirit; it knows that the Spirit of God is expressed and manifested in communion with Jesus Christ. However, here too Paul does not stop at saying “no”, but rather leads us to the great “yes”. He describes the mature, truly adult faith positively with the words: “speaking the truth in love” (cf. Eph 4: 15). The new way of thinking, given to us by faith, is first and foremost a turning towards the truth. The power of evil is falsehood. The power of faith, the power of God, is the truth. The truth about the world and about ourselves becomes visible when we look to God. And God makes himself visible to us in the Face of Jesus Christ. In looking at Christ, we recognize something else: truth and love are inseparable. In God both are inseparably one; it is precisely this that is the essence of God. For Christians, therefore, truth and love go together. Love is the test of truth. We should always measure ourselves anew against this criterion, so that truth may become love and love may make us truthful. "

~ Pope Benedict XVI

The whole thing is wonderful…one of my very favorites…do not miss a word of it:

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/homilies/2009/documents/hf_ben-xvi_hom_20090628_chius-anno-paolino_en.html
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There is more in the text…as I note…especially of beauty is his words there on the “renewal of the mind” …in Paul.
 
DominicStephen said:
Its an old command, in 1452 Pope Nicholas issued a papal bull granting a king, or leader, from spain or portugal cant remember which, stating that he was to reduce any “Saracens, pagans and any other unbelievers” to slavery, along with their families into perpetuaty(sp?) ( forever) 🤷
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He sounds kind of upset with the Saracens, etc., there …
PS: Just add that this only lasted 10 years, in 1462 Pius II decreed that slavery was “a great crime”.
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Good. 🙂

I think that if you look at the whole context there, you see that Pope Nicholas was not issuing an infallible decree - indeed, he seems to be treading on ground where he doesn’t belong - the affairs of state during a time of war - and we know that when Popes speak outside of their jurisdiction, they cannot speak infallibly - especially when what they are saying is opposed to the doctrine of the Apostles, in this case, that of the brotherhood of all humanity in Christ.

Clearly, the Church of the time didn’t mistake it for such, either, although at the same time, I don’t doubt that the armies of whatever country he was speaking to did indeed take slaves from among their enemies, and justified themselves by saying that the Pope told them to do it - it was an imprudent thing for him to say, but thinking people of today can surely figure out that he was not actually promulgating Church doctrine at the time.
 
Here is what the Catechism says on conscience

usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect1chpt1art6.shtml#1783
Deep within his conscience man discovers a law which he has not laid upon himself but which he must obey. Its voice, ever calling him to love and to do what is good and to avoid evil, sounds in his heart at the right moment. . . . For man has in his heart a law inscribed by God. . . . His conscience is man’s most secret core and his sanctuary. There he is alone with God whose voice echoes in his depths

Conscience is a judgment of reason whereby the human person recognizes the moral quality of a concrete act that he is going to perform, is in the process of performing, or has already completed. In all he says and does, man is obliged to follow faithfully what he knows to be just and right. It is by the judgment of his conscience that man perceives and recognizes the prescriptions of the divine law:
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Man has the right to act in conscience and in freedom so as personally to make moral decisions. "He must not be forced to act contrary to his conscience. Nor must he be prevented from acting according to his conscience, especially in religious matters
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A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience. If he were deliberately to act against it, he would condemn himself. Yet it can happen that moral conscience remains in ignorance and makes erroneous judgments about acts to be performed or already committed.
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pnewton said:
Here is what the Catechism says on conscience

usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect1chpt1art6.shtml#1783
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Also it says: Catechism, no. 2039: “Personal conscience and reason should not be set in opposition to the moral law or the Magisterium of the Church.”

and

1783 Conscience must be informed and moral judgment enlightened. A well-formed conscience is upright and truthful. It formulates its judgments according to reason, in conformity with the true good willed by the wisdom of the Creator. the education of conscience is indispensable for human beings who are subjected to negative influences and tempted by sin to prefer their own judgment and to reject authoritative teachings.

1784 The education of the conscience is a lifelong task. From the earliest years, it awakens the child to the knowledge and practice of the interior law recognized by conscience. Prudent education teaches virtue; it prevents or cures fear, selfishness and pride, resentment arising from guilt, and feelings of complacency, born of human weakness and faults. the education of the conscience guarantees freedom and engenders peace of heart.

1785 In the formation of conscience the Word of God is the light for our path,54 we must assimilate it in faith and prayer and put it into practice. We must also examine our conscience before the Lord’s Cross. We are assisted by the gifts of the Holy Spirit, aided by the witness or advice of others and guided by the authoritative teaching of the Church.55

and

1791 This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man "takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin."59 In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.

1792 Ignorance of Christ and his Gospel, bad example given by others, enslavement to one’s passions, assertion of a mistaken notion of autonomy of conscience, rejection of the Church’s authority and her teaching, lack of conversion and of charity: these can be at the source of errors of judgment in moral conduct.

1793 If - on the contrary - the ignorance is invincible, or the moral subject is not responsible for his erroneous judgment, the evil committed by the person cannot be imputed to him. It remains no less an evil, a privation, a disorder. One must therefore work to correct the errors of moral conscience.

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM
**
Here is a good article…**

cuf.org/Faithfacts/details_view.asp?ffID=109
 
But as to the question at hand…Catholics are to assent to the Teachings of the Church in their various kinds…according to the assent that is proper to each…many things are the assent of Faith…and some things for example require the religious submission of intellect and will…et al.

Standing fast against conforming to the fashions of the times…

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=8196387&postcount=31
 
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