Disappointed in local Secular Franciscan chapter

[Epistemes]

I have been attending meetings with the local chapter of the Secular Franciscans since September and since then have become familiar with just about all the members.

One of the members was gracious enough to host a potluck dinner at his house this evening. I was invited and was the only “newbie” in attendance. When I arrived at his house, I was slightly shocked to find a very large flat screen television in the living room, a multi-disc CD and DVD player, several bottles of wine in storage, etc. etc. I don’t want to say he’s unChristian, but seeing him own these items seemed very unFranciscan.

Also, while I was there, one woman’s daughter’s found a black spider and was scared of it. I looked at one of the Franciscans and asked him what to do, and he said, “I’d kill it.” A Franciscan advocating killing a harmless spider. I was shocked, so I picked the spider up and placed him outside.

I don’t want to pass judgment on these men or women, some who dressed rather fancy, in my opinion, while I dressed in a sweater and jeans, but I just sense something very unFranciscan about them. And I’m disappointed. I’m not going to say that I am Francis reincarnate because I have my vices, as well, but I’m not even in the orientation phase yet, much less an actual, full-fledged SFO like these folks.

 

[1234]

I have been attending meetings with the local chapter of the Secular Franciscans since September and since then have become familiar with just about all the members.

One of the members was gracious enough to host a potluck dinner at his house this evening. I was invited and was the only “newbie” in attendance. When I arrived at his house, I was slightly shocked to find a very large flat screen television in the living room, a multi-disc CD and DVD player, several bottles of wine in storage, etc. etc. I don’t want to say he’s unChristian, but seeing him own these items seemed very unFranciscan.

Also, while I was there, one woman’s daughter’s found a black spider and was scared of it. I looked at one of the Franciscans and asked him what to do, and he said, “I’d kill it.” A Franciscan advocating killing a harmless spider. I was shocked, so I picked the spider up and placed him outside.

I don’t want to pass judgment on these men or women, some who dressed rather fancy, in my opinion, while I dressed in a sweater and jeans, but I just sense something very unFranciscan about them. And I’m disappointed. I’m not going to say that I am Francis reincarnate because I have my vices, as well, but I’m not even in the orientation phase yet, much less an actual, full-fledged SFO like these folks.

Don’t judge too quickly. Aside from the TV, DVD and CD players aren’t expensive now. Folks who don’t spend a lot of money on dining out, going to expensive sports or cultural events will probably enjoy TV. You don’t know how much money they make; they may be living WAY below their incomes!

I like spiders and kill only black widows, which are black, btw –was that a black widow? Otherwise I try to put them outside without killing them. Lots of folks really* are* afraid of spiders!

 

[withwind]

You probably should spend more time to study what SFO is about.

 

[puzzleannie]

was this a chapter meeting, or a Christmas party?
if it was a party, I would expect to see people in party clothes, eating party food, and drinking good wine. If the spider was a threat, and many in this part of the country are, it would be okay to kill it if it could not be safely removed and taken outside.

as far as I know secular Franciscans do not take vows and are at liberty to incorporate Franciscan spirituality and values to the extent they are able in their private lives.

 

[tee]

I think you might be overreacting. I don’t think being a Franciscan means you have to love all animals, it is most important that you love your fellow men/women. Animals are being killed daily to feed us, which is God’s gift for us so although he’s not an animal lover like you doesn’t mean he’s unFranciscan.
Also, to dress up at a party is normal as these individual are not taking vows. Dressing up shows respect for the host, like when we go to church we need to dress nice for God.

I think what important is that you need to look at their daily life, how they treat their fellow brothers and sisters. Do they live a lavish life like eating out all the time, go to expansive social gatherings, etc. Instead of judging them on this one meeting.

 

[LilyM]

If I see a spider or other creepy-crawly, I’m not going to look at it long enough or close enough to decide whether it’s a harmless or harmful type - it’s a goner.

As previous poster said, don’t judge by appearances. You don’t know that the TV and other gizmos aren’t the property of, or for the benefit of, non-Franciscans in the household, or aren’t gifts or something, or that the wine isn’t drunk only at Christmas and Easter.

And some Franciscans, like my parents, earn a very decent living but give away more than they spend on themselves. I know mine contributed a heck of a lot to building their local church way back 25 years ago when it was being constructed, and give a lot to all sorts of different causes.

 

[JollyGal88]

I have been attending meetings with the local chapter of the Secular Franciscans since September and since then have become familiar with just about all the members.

One of the members was gracious enough to host a potluck dinner at his house this evening. I was invited and was the only “newbie” in attendance. When I arrived at his house, I was slightly shocked to find a very large flat screen television in the living room, a multi-disc CD and DVD player, several bottles of wine in storage, etc. etc. I don’t want to say he’s unChristian, but seeing him own these items seemed very unFranciscan.

Also, while I was there, one woman’s daughter’s found a black spider and was scared of it. I looked at one of the Franciscans and asked him what to do, and he said, “I’d kill it.” A Franciscan advocating killing a harmless spider. I was shocked, so I picked the spider up and placed him outside.

I don’t want to pass judgment on these men or women, some who dressed rather fancy, in my opinion, while I dressed in a sweater and jeans, but I just sense something very unFranciscan about them. And I’m disappointed. I’m not going to say that I am Francis reincarnate because I have my vices, as well, but I’m not even in the orientation phase yet, much less an actual, full-fledged SFO like these folks.

I must tell you this, being a person who tries hard not to judge quickly.
Have you considered the fact that Satan may be trying to make you resent an amazing order like the SFO? I do not want to say that this is happening to you, but as Christians, we are not to do things like this. Does it really matter whether or not they dress fancy? God doesn’t mind it if someone dresses up for a special occasion such as that. Would God want you to look at things like this? If He did, people would not be joining religious orders. You have to look at the good things they do and the holy people they are. Is the host of the party a holy person? He may have money, yes. God has blessed him, but is he a holy man? That is what you must look at. Just because someone has a nice TV in their house does not make them “materialistic” or “money-mongers”. You should look into their lives and how they act a little more before you have thoughts like that.

 

[JReducation]

There are two things that must be understood here.

First, the Secular Franciscan Order is comprised of members who often have families. The individual is the Franciscan, not his entire family. St. Francis would not allow those brothers and sisters who were married to impose the asceticism and discipline of the Order on their families. What I have in my home belongs to my family and it is for their benefit and welfare, while my personal belongings may be few and my use of what’s in the house may be limited only to what I need.

It is never justifiable to divide a family or a marriage over the vocation of one member. Just like a priest may have a wealthy family, but he is very simple and ascetic, so it happens with secular religious. The commitment is made by the individual, not his family.

Second, we are in the USA. Since 1978 the Franciscan Order has been trying to recover the spirit and life of our founder. The Americans have the greatest difficulty with this. For more than 200 years, Franciscans in the USA served as missionaries that helped diocesan bishops where there was a shortage of diocesan priests. Secular Franciscans served the American Church in the same way. They often picked up the slack where there were few religious or few Catholics to carry on the mission of the Church and to spread the Catholic faith.

As a result, American Franciscans became very apostolic, which is not a bad thing. Their focus was to do the work of the Church. One of the biggest challenges of the American Church was to protect the rights of American Catholics. To do so, they needed money, power, and the right connections. Had it not been this way, we would still be called Papists and we would not have had our own schools, hospitals, and land and other rights that the Protestants in the USA have enjoyed since before the American Revolution.

When the Rule was revised in 1978 and the Constitutions were rewritten in 2000 they called for a return to the original spirit of the Secular Franciscan Order, to live the Gospel in the manner of St. Francis. We are to live the Gospel within the secular environment, without allowing it to contaminate us. We are to sanctify the secular world through our presence and our penance. Above all we are to serve the Church as a religious order dedicated to the conversion of Catholics. That’s why we were founded.

But the older generation is still very activity and outcome oriented. In other words, they are still very oriented toward the apostolic labours and often the ascetic practices are sacrificed, because of the belief that we must go out and convert the world. Nothing was further from Francis’ mind when he founded the Secular Order. This was a response to the needs of bishops. Francis did command his sons and daughters to assist the secular clergy when asked to do so. Unfortunately, the Bishops asked for too much and the external appearance of the order has suffered.

It will take a long time until this generation has passed and the younger generation and those older persons who want to recover the original spirit of the Order become more visible. Then you will see the ancient ascetical Franciscan life again. You can choose to be one of those who bring back the desired recovery that the Church has called us to do or you can walk away; but what will you have contributed to the Church and to the great Franciscan family?

There already are many of us who are living more like the original Secular Franciscans, but we are not a cast apart from our brothers and sisters who became “lay apostles.” They are our brothers and sisters. They did what they did in response to the needs of the Church and at the request of the Church. Those of us who are returning to our ancient traditions honor and thank them for what they have done.

Fraternally in St. Francis,

JR

 

[ThomasEugene]

it doesn’t mean that if you’re rich your bad. it is the love of money (to the point of making it a god) is what will bring you closer to hell.

 

[JReducation]

it doesn’t mean that if you’re rich your bad. it is the love of money (to the point of making it a god) is what will bring you closer to hell.

You are right, Thomas. But I understand Epistemes concern. The entire Franciscan family has been mandated to recover the poverty and the brotherhood of St. Francis.

In November 2008, the Secular Franciscans had their General Chapter and the Chapter was very clear as was the Superior General. The Secular Franciscans are to become one body around the world and are to become one with the other Franciscan Orders. To do so they must review how they live material poverty, simplicity, detachment from the world and above all, they must strengthen their fraternal bonds with the entire order by becoming equals with the friars and the nuns of the order.

What should distinguish them from the friars and the nuns is that they should bring the Franciscan tradition and spirit into the secular world. That’s why they are called Secular Franciscans, but they should avoid all forms of secularization.

They were mandated to remember that no fraternity exists in a vacuum. Every fraternity is part of an Order that has 600,000 brothers and sisters in 114 countries and there should be some uniformity around the globe. This struggle to live this way is what makes a Secular Franciscan a Brother of Penance.

The General Chapter came down very hard on the Americans and the Europeans. So much so that the General Couselor for the United States was selected from Hungary. For the time being, the American Secular Franciscans may not represent themselves in the General Council. A Filipino was appointed for Europe.

The Americans have to bring their spiritual life into harmony with their apostolic life. There is a tension between the two right now. The apostolate seems to take priority over being. This was not acceptable to the Order or to the Holy See.

The mandate is to go from Gospel to life back to Gospel. Franciscan simplicity, prayer, joy, justice, brotherhood and oneness must be given special attention in those fraternities where these have been relegated to the back burner for the sake of the apostolate.

The good news is that many fraternities are doing this. They are examining their lives and discussing how to establish a balance between the apostolate and the life that Francis prescribed for all of his brothers and sisters.

It’s not that rich people are evil, but that this is not the way of St. Francis. We owe obedience to Francis per his own words.

Fraternally,

JR

 

[Epistemes]

Hello,

Thanks to everyone who has looked at or responded to this thread. Having read the responses as they’ve been received, I must confess that perhaps I was a little rash in my judgement concerning what people own and how they own it. It is a double standard on my own part to make these observations when I recognize my own clinginess and, what’s worse, my own unwillingness to depart from such habits. Should I enter the candidacy phase of the SFO, what example would I be setting? This is more food for thought.

However, having just returned from the monthly chapter meeting, I must admit that I still find a certain distaste in my mouth and in my heart regarding this particular chapter, though I am having difficulty putting my finger on it. Perhaps I am merely disillusioned by the many fine posts which brother JReducation illuminates us with so frequently; perhaps I was expecting a similar joyful Franciscan attitude among more of the chapter members, but instead have landed head first in the reality of what most chapters are experiencing here in the states, as JR described above.

This particular chapter, though, lacks initiative, it lacks coordination, and it appears to have been floundering for so long that it has completely lost its legs. In the coming month, there are no chapter projects aside from ‘bring clothes for the poor if you decide to clean out your closets’; for another month, each member has been left to his/her own devices. This chapter clearly has no active presence in the parish, much less the community. While I sense fraternity within the group, I do not believe it is of the integrity which Francis called the Third Order to live by; if I joined tomorrow, I would sense that these men and women were my friends, but not my brothers and sisters who I am obligated to attend to. These are some of the observations I’ve made in my brief time with them.

Of course I could be wrong, which is why I will probably keep attending these meeting hoping that I will be proved wrong, but the pessimist in me senses that I am not.

As it stands right now, I do not see the benefit in becoming a Secular Franciscan even if I do desire to live a Franciscan spirituality. To become a Secular Franciscan with this chapter seems to provide just as much as following Francis alone. I guess that since this chapter lacks the necessary grace to effect my conversion, I ought to scratch it from my list of vocations, huh?

 

[JReducation]

Hello,

Thanks to everyone who has looked at or responded to this thread. Having read the responses as they’ve been received, I must confess that perhaps I was a little rash in my judgement concerning what people own and how they own it. It is a double standard on my own part to make these observations when I recognize my own clinginess and, what’s worse, my own unwillingness to depart from such habits. Should I enter the candidacy phase of the SFO, what example would I be setting? This is more food for thought.

However, having just returned from the monthly chapter meeting, I must admit that I still find a certain distaste in my mouth and in my heart regarding this particular chapter, though I am having difficulty putting my finger on it. Perhaps I am merely disillusioned by the many fine posts which brother JReducation illuminates us with so frequently; perhaps I was expecting a similar joyful Franciscan attitude among more of the chapter members, but instead have landed head first in the reality of what most chapters are experiencing here in the states, as JR described above.

This particular chapter, though, lacks initiative, it lacks coordination, and it appears to have been floundering for so long that it has completely lost its legs. In the coming month, there are no chapter projects aside from ‘bring clothes for the poor if you decide to clean out your closets’; for another month, each member has been left to his/her own devices. This chapter clearly has no active presence in the parish, much less the community. While I sense fraternity within the group, I do not believe it is of the integrity which Francis called the Third Order to live by; if I joined tomorrow, I would sense that these men and women were my friends, but not my brothers and sisters who I am obligated to attend to. These are some of the observations I’ve made in my brief time with them.

Of course I could be wrong, which is why I will probably keep attending these meeting hoping that I will be proved wrong, but the pessimist in me senses that I am not.

As it stands right now, I do not see the benefit in becoming a Secular Franciscan even if I do desire to live a Franciscan spirituality. To become a Secular Franciscan with this chapter seems to provide just as much as following Francis alone. I guess that since this chapter lacks the necessary grace to effect my conversion, I ought to scratch it from my list of vocations, huh?

You can do several things if you’re seriously considering the Order of Secular Fanciscans.

1. Speak with the Formation Direcor about your concerns.
2. Seek out another fraternity in your area. I’m not sure what Province you’re in, so I can’t tell you what’s available.
3. Speak with the Spiritual Assistant of the fraternity.

Let me know if I can help. But if you’re looking to see what it’s really about, check out the documents of the General Chapter that was held in Budapest during Thanksgiving. Here is the link.

ciofs.org/en.htm

Fraternally,

JR

 

[Epistemes]

You can do several things if you’re seriously considering the Order of Secular Fanciscans.

1. Speak with the Formation Direcor about your concerns.
2. Seek out another fraternity in your area. I’m not sure what Province you’re in, so I can’t tell you what’s available.
3. Speak with the Spiritual Assistant of the fraternity.

Thanks for replying.

As for #1 and #3, I don’t even know who these people are! That is, I’ve met all the members but it’s not clear to me who is responsible for what. A few people seem to take charge, but whether they are in the leadership positions you describe above, I don’t know. Even if I did know these who filled these positions, not only would I not know where to begin in my approach but I would ultimately consider it awfully presumptuous of myself to state (in whatever way) that I am less than impressed. I’ve attended five meetings, who am I to say anything? I also have my doubts that my concerns would amount to anything in terms of reforming the chapter.

Plus, it’s very likely that it is I who am wrong and being overly critical. I doubt it based on a few key observations, but I also don’t doubt it given my track record with these things.

As for #2, it’s hard for me gauge how much I want to be a Secular Franciscan when I’ve yet to see the life in practice (or have I?); therefore, driving one hour in either direction to find another chapter, which I don’t know if it exists or not since there has been no mention of a sister chapter in the past five months, seems superfluous.

Please understand that I’m not trying to be disrespectful, but when the minister herself admits that the chapter hasn’t done anything in the past few years in the way of helping the community, and when the past five chapter meetings (including the potluck which I attended) have been disorganized and mostly political prep work for the next meeting, it’s easy to begin to form the hopeless impression that these meetings are for nothing more than praying the Hours and indulging in organic snacks.

 

[JReducation]

Thanks for replying.

As for #1 and #3, I don’t even know who these people are! That is, I’ve met all the members but it’s not clear to me who is responsible for what. A few people seem to take charge, but whether they are in the leadership positions you describe above, I don’t know. Even if I did know these who filled these positions, not only would I not know where to begin in my approach but I would ultimately consider it awfully presumptuous of myself to state (in whatever way) that I am less than impressed. I’ve attended five meetings, who am I to say anything? I also have my doubts that my concerns would amount to anything in terms of reforming the chapter.

Plus, it’s very likely that it is I who am wrong and being overly critical. I doubt it based on a few key observations, but I also don’t doubt it given my track record with these things.

As for #2, it’s hard for me gauge how much I want to be a Secular Franciscan when I’ve yet to see the life in practice (or have I?); therefore, driving one hour in either direction to find another chapter, which I don’t know if it exists or not since there has been no mention of a sister chapter in the past five months, seems superfluous.

Please understand that I’m not trying to be disrespectful, but when the minister herself admits that the chapter hasn’t done anything in the past few years in the way of helping the community, and when the past five chapter meetings (including the potluck which I attended) have been disorganized and mostly political prep work for the next meeting, it’s easy to begin to form the hopeless impression that these meetings are for nothing more than praying the Hours and indulging in organic snacks.

You should ask to speak with the Formation Director and/or the Spiritual Assistant. The Constitutions clearly say that there has to be a Formation Director and a Spiritual Assistant for each fraternity.

There is nothing presumptuous about asking questions. Never feel that way at all. Everyone is entitled to ask questions. You can even have a private meeting with the Minister at a mutually agreeable time and place. They have to grant an inquierer that. That’s part of being a servant. If they blow you off, you have a right to contact the regional superiors. That would be nonsense behaviour and it’s unacceptable.

Fraternally,

JR

 

[Epistemes]

Thank you, JR. I will keep this in mind, though I must confess that I am more than a little hesitant to approach the minister with anything right now. I have more criticisms than I have questions, at this point; also, I need time to consider if my expectations of *them *aren’t somehow a double standard. Nonetheless, my mind drifts back to a conversation I had with an older parishioner who, when I asked why he wasn’t a Secular Franciscan, told me, “I’m tired of all these groups who are all talk and no action.” he included the local chapter of the Knights of Columbus in that generalization.

 

[T.A.Stobie_SFO]

My experience is that each local Secular Franciscan faternity has its own flavor. They tend to follow the rule at different levels and some are more secularly (worldly) than others. They also vary in the depth of commonity spirituality.

Try not to judge a chapter by its individual members, nor the overall order by its chapters.

I recommend that each Secular Franciscan embrace the rule and pray for wisdom about it.

Also remember that worldly tools, such a big TVs and DVDs, can be put to spiritual uses, such as playing spiritual movies and documentaries.

Now if you do find that the flavor of a local fraternity does not you fit, you can check out another local fraternity in the area to see the differences and might find that you fit better there.

The Franciscan gift from God varies by Franciscan with different charisms and different spirituality but generally include a growing love for God and his creations, a simplicity of life (to focus on a deeper spiritual life), and a desire to be a saint.

 

[AveSantaMaria]

One might also join a St. Maximilian Kolbe village or start one of one’s own. He was also a Franciscan as well as a Marian. www.consecration.com

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *

Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse.

For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world! For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world! For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world!

O Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee!
Sorrowful and Immaculate Heart of Mary, pray for us!

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *

 

[JReducation]

Thank you, JR. I will keep this in mind, though I must confess that I am more than a little hesitant to approach the minister with anything right now. I have more criticisms than I have questions, at this point; also, I need time to consider if my expectations of *them *aren’t somehow a double standard. Nonetheless, my mind drifts back to a conversation I had with an older parishioner who, when I asked why he wasn’t a Secular Franciscan, told me, “I’m tired of all these groups who are all talk and no action.” he included the local chapter of the Knights of Columbus in that generalization.

Your co-parishioner obviously does not understand the difference between an order and a lay organiztion (Knights of Columbus). Orders are not always founded to do something. They are often founded to BE something. If we go by those standards, we would have to say that all of the cloistered orders are useless, because they do nothing in the world, such as run schools, hospitals, parish ministry, religious education and so forth. Their focus is prayer, reaching intimacy with God, discovering God through silence and separation from the world. They actually spend very few hours a day in actual work, even manual labor. However, their interior life is a source of many graces for the world.

Some Secular communities, Franciscans, Dominicans, Carmelites, Oblates, Missionaries of Charity and a few others are very oriented toward an anonymous life within the secular world where they bring Christ into the environment where they live and work by their example of fidelity to the Gospel, by their life of prayer and penance, and by their on-going formation in the spiritual life in order to be more like Christ as their founders were.

There is nothing in the Franciscan rule that says that any Franciscan has to do anything out of the ordinary. Ministry is not mentioned in Francis’ writings. His writing focuses on the brotherhood more than ministry. The focus is on obedience to the Gospel, conversion through a life of penance, simplicity, and poverty.

It is true that American secular religious have been criticized even by their own communities at the international level for their lack of belonging. The General Chapter of the Secular Franciscans called for a stronger sense of belonging. In fact it mandated it. But this will come with newer blood than with older people who are set in their ways.

The General Chapter was very clear that a sense of belonging for Secular Franciscans means an awareness that we are true religious order in the Church. That we make a canonical profession to live in the manner of St. Francis. That we are called to be different from other religious families through the way that we live fraternity and simplicity. Different does not mean better. It means exactly what the word says, different. Each religious family is a unique gift to the Church.

Another point that was made very clear by the General Chapter was that the monthly meetings be abolished and replaced by a frequent (more than once a month) fraternal gathering where on-going formation, prayer, and brotherhood is visible. It also called for the Secular Franciscans to create cells of families for those who are married and of singles for those who are single and celibate where they share their daily lives, even if they do not live in the same house, but close enough to spend time with each other.

Finally, the General Chapter called the Secular Francisans to co-responsibility with the friars of the first order and third order and the nuns of the second order. The Church reminded the Secular Franciscan that their profession to live the Gospel as Francis lived it is as valuable, as meaningful, as significant, as canonical and equal to that of the friars and the nuns of the second order.

Many seculars still feel that they are an appendage of the friars. Nothing could be further from the truth. The Church called them to live as part of the same family, but as equals, as brothers and sisters.

If one is up to this challenge, then one is called to be a Secular Franciscan. The challenge right now is to restore to the Secular Franciscans to the original spirit and way of life of the first Brothers and Sisters of Penance, like Elizabeth of Hungary, Angela of Foligno, Bl. Luchesius, Margaret of Cortona, and Louis King of France.

I strongly recommend reading the site that I posted above on the General Constitutions and Rule of the Secular Order, as well as the notes and key addresses of the Secular Franciscan Chapter in Budapest.

As for oneself, if one is up to the task to work for reform and restoration of the original spirit of the Order within the context of this century, then one has a vocation. Do not worry about the hearts of others. Each of us should live the Rule of St. Francis from our own heart, always remembering that we are part of a larger family than the local fraternity.

Fraternally in St. Francis,

JR

 

[Marauder]

I would like to echo the message of JR and others that different fraternities have different personalities. I have been in the process of formation for SFO over 5 years. It involved looking at 2 seperate fraternities, a period of waiting (due to the birth of my first child). then looking at a new fraternity and now I am in the candidate program.

You need to evaluate a fraternity over a period of time before you get a true feeling for what they are about. Depending on when you see a fraternity you may be seeing different aspects of the fraternity. An example is that you may start observing a fraternity during their election cycle where they are electing the minister and the council. That can be boring to a visitor and could seem very un-spiritual.

Also some fraternities go through cycles, especially where the fraternities consist of members around the same age. As the fraternity ages the ability to do different things may change, then when “young blood” is introduced the flavor may change.

Also don’t judge a fraternity based on the actions of a few within the fraternity. Everyone is still sinners and everyone has different reasons for being a member some good, some not so good. Some people are better at exemplifying the rule others not. Some may normally be great but due to external things that you may not see (i.e death of spouse or family member) their personality at the time may be different. Everyone is at different stages in their personal journey.

Don’t be afraid of judging the fraternity and your calling because you do have to assess whether both the calling and the fraternity is for you but don’t judge the individual members.

 

[Augustine]

As for #1 and #3, I don’t even know who these people are!

The Spiritual Assistant might not be available at the time, but both the Minister and the Formation Director should’ve introduced themselves to you right at the first visit. If anything, this doesn’t seem to bode well…