Disappointed with Catholic Marriage Prep

[floresco]

You know, during the first year after I converted to Catholicism, I had found a nice traditional church and fell in love with it. I was totally naive, and when I found out they were schismatic, I was mortified. Of course I left right away, did all this self-imposed penance… oh man that was crazy. >< Thing is, the way I found them is that I had tried to find a priest – any priest – who could help me understand and deal with the things that were happening to me in the middle of the night. The modern priests had nothing to offer because they were so in over their heads – although one priest did mock me by saying that only holy people are attacked – but this group had a whole lot of them who were teaching me how to fight spiritual warfare. Still, I know better than to remain associated with a schismatic group, no matter how much I need them. So… now I am without spiritual counsel again. But… sorry, ADD again… I did take a friend’s advice to go to an Eastern Catholic Church, and that has helped quite a bit. My fiance, who was also struggling with his faith in the modernist church, fell in love with the Eastern Catholic Church. It looks like this may be our answer, except… the heavy-handedness of the Roman Church is unfortunately micromanaging our tiny Eastern Church to the point where we have to do this psychobabble FOCCUS thing in spite of how Eastern Christians are more about Christian mysteries – most definitely including spiritual warfare – than processes which are designed with a “one-size-fits-all” mindset.

I was just complaining in another thread about the same problem in my RCIA program.

I can understand you not wanting to be associated with a schismatic group. Perhaps you can find a traditional Catholic parish that is not schismatic.

At least you are happy with the Eastern Catholics. If you can somehow get past this FOCCUS thing, you will have a good church to go to.

 

[micahmike]

My advice to you is to suck it up and take the FOCUS test with a smile even though you know you don’t need it. You cannot fail it, you will not be refused the Sacrament even if the exersize says you’re 100% incompatible. It is one tool. If the results help you in some way, accept it. If they don’t, ignore it, simple as that. The very worst case is that you’ll have to endure a half hour of someone suggesting that you and you’re spouse aren’t perfect for erachother and perhaps trying to get you two to talk about what they think are some potential areas of conflict. That’s all. You will have to endure much greater pain than that after your marriage, that’s for certain (illness, deaths in the family, failure to return teh seat to its propper position, etc).

I share your disdain for part of marriage prep which are required and simply unnecesarry or even worse, flat wrong. NFP should be dicussed in brief because in limited, serious circumstances, some couples may need it. I see no reason it should be preached to all as if it is being sold. It is no wonder that some see it as Catholic contriception, Many family ministry types see it as the norm rather than tghe exception.

 

[Ponyguy]

We had no marriage prep whatsoever back in “the day.”

However, with a spitload of The Almighty’s help, we’ve almost made it to our 41st anniversary.

I really, really wish we’d have had something like a “personality inventory” or whatever the “FOCCUS” tool or test actually is. It certainly would have made an immeasurable difference for the better in our lives; we have been extremely lucky, because when we were first married, we didn’t know each other very well… in actuality, we simply didn’t know each other at all.

Best of luck to you both, sadPanda!! http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v313/ponyguy/sadpanda.gif

 

[Phemie]

We had no marriage prep whatsoever back in “the day.”

Neither did we, back in '75.

However, with a spitload of The Almighty’s help, we’ve almost made it to our 41st anniversary.

35th for us.

I really, really wish we’d have had something like a “personality inventory” or whatever the “FOCCUS” tool or test actually is. It certainly would have made an immeasurable difference for the better in our lives; we have been extremely lucky, because when we were first married, we didn’t know each other very well… in actuality, we simply didn’t know each other at all.

We had been apart for two years and had received training for our respective careers. Mine trained me to never do anything without knowing ‘why?’ and his trained him to obey without question. That first year together was a steep learning curve
“Where’s a pen?”
“Why?”
“Because I’d like to fold towels … why the heck do you think I’m looking for a pen???”

Luckily, we’d discussed children & religion before getting engaged and going off to our respective schools

 

[sadPanda]

Hi folks…

Thanks sooo much for helping me with helping to sort out all this to get a better perspective on things… specific comments below…

Phemie: LOL!! That’s hilarious… <3

Ponyguy: Aww… thank you for the well-wishes, and I appreciate your perspective.

Micah: Yeah, I know, the suck it up answer is the right one, of course. The problem is that we most definitely CAN fail it… I’ve been doing more research into this… more on this later in my post.

Floresco: Well… they really are a good church, it’s true, but still… both of us are having troubles assimilating into the group. It may be because we have to commute 60 miles, and we have talked about moving closer, requiring a change of jobs to do so. If you think about it, remembering us in your prayers would sure be appreciated…

1ke: Sorry for the assumption on my part, and thanks for letting us continue our conversation in peace.

Rach: Yes, exactly! We were hoping for real substantial spiritual guidance in our marriage prep! So, you and Micah essentially have the same helpful advice: bear the cross with love (aka “suck it up”, which in my world is military-speak for bear the cross with love.) It is really good advice, and very helpful because it does not try to rationalize something which is hurtful. Thank you sooo much… <3

Joandarc (one of my fav saints, btw ): Thanks so much for your encouragement and the explanations… My fiance told me the exact same thing about some people being the problem and not the Church, and I do understand that to a large degree… I’m just worried that when there is a structure that gives people power to prevent a Sacrament based on submission to a secular construct, that it may be tantamount to my offering my soul something which is worldly in an inappropriate manner… and I don’t know if the Orthodox Church does the same thing to people. Of course the whole question here is what constitutes inappropriate in this case, and believe me I really have been trying to discern this because obedience to the Church is part of the core of my faith. This is why it is crucial that I am in the right Church to trust my soul with, and why the incident of being committed to something secular is very frightening to me. Does that make sense?

OK, now I promised I would get back to the whole fear of “failing the test”, and my fiance last night was right when he said that it is not a test insofar as they won’t let us marry if we dont score above a certain amount. That I understand. What has been tripping me up is that I am a scientist, and diagnostics are supposed to say something about the system that you are analyzing. That’s the whole point, and that is why I wanted to make sure te test is done right. If my fiance and I are not allowed to discuss the questions beforehand, there will be misunderstandings. Worse, I have been trained to always err on the side of the negative because if there is even the slightest doubt in my perception of something encouraging, I have to state it up front when I publish papers. With the yes/no nature of the test, I do not have that option, so I am naturally inclined to go negative when there is even a modicum of doubt. Finally… and this is the scariest of all… Check this out:

**Predicting Marital Success after Five Years: Assessing the Predictive Validity of FOCCUS
Lee Williams, University of San Diego, Joan Jurich, Purdue University

Engaged Couples who took a premarital inventory called FOCCUS were contacted 5 years later to see if their scores would predict their future marital success. Results showed that FOCCUS successfully predicted the future marital success of most couples, supporting the predictive validity of FOCCUS. The results also indicate that FOCCUS and PREPARE are roughly comparable in terms of their predictive validity.**

So… what do I do if we score low on it? Is this for real? Or is it psychobabble? If it is for real, and if we score low on it, then as a scientist I need to call off the marriage. If it is psychobabble, then why is the Church buying off on it to the point where they are focring people to take this under the threat of witholding the Sacrament? And… there is one other explanation… it is a poorly designed/administered test. Based on all the conversations I’ve had so far on this topic, I am starting to come to the conclusion it is this third option that is indeed the case.

So far, that third option is what I am leaning to. Based on this and the helpful adivce to suck it up and bear your cross for the love of Christ and your fiance, I will submit to this test. At the same time, I think I will make notes during the test and do some deep digging into the analytical methods that are employed with this test. I would need to read the papers published on the method (there are very few, and I am really hoping my library has a subscription to these journals). It’s sounds like they are doing a common factor analysis on the data, which is a standard package in the statistics toolbox of MATLAB… OK, I have a plan!

Thanks all! I really appreciate your help here, and now I feel much more at peace with this challenge.

Take care y’all, God bless you and your families, and maybe I will touch base again some day…

Panda

 

[micahmike]

So… what do I do if we score low on it? Is this for real? Or is it psychobabble? If it is for real, and if we score low on it, then as a scientist I need to call off the marriage. If it is psychobabble, then why is the Church buying off on it to the point where they are focring people to take this under the threat of witholding the Sacrament? And… there is one other explanation… it is a poorly designed/administered test. Based on all the conversations I’ve had so far on this topic, I am starting to come to the conclusion it is this third option that is indeed the case.

I have come to the conclusion that you are, perhaps through no fault of your own, overthinking this. FOCUS is reported by its proponents to be a fairly reliable predictor of marital problems, nothing more, nothing less. “As a scientist” you have no obligation to “call off the marriage” if you score poorly on it. While it might be true that FOCUS accurately predicts certain troubles in most marriages, so what? That in and of itself is not reason to call off a marriage. Most marriages end in divorce, that does not mean that a person of science would be foolish to marry expecting it to last forever. Marriage is not a coin toss, you get to influence the outcome. Take the test. Listen to the instructor and consider what they have to say about the results. Use what is useful to you, disregard what isn’t.

At the same time, I think I will make notes during the test and do some deep digging into the analytical methods that are employed with this test.

I wouldn’t. You’ve already given it more thought than it warants. Consider it a hoop to be jumped through and move on. When you take the test, be honest.

Also, I still don’t think that FOCUS is what you think it is, the type of test that seeks to “trip you up” by asking the same question several different ways. Try not to attribute a negative motive to a tool that has none. This tiool is being administered to help you. You might find the results helpful in your marriage, you might not. It really can’t hurt anything, other than the fact that I’m sure it’s a couple hours of test-taking and counseling that you’d rather spend doing something you enjoy.

 

[Phemie]

I have come to the conclusion that you are, perhaps through no fault of your own, overthinking this. FOCUS is reported by its proponents to be a fairly reliable predictor of marital problems, nothing more, nothing less. “As a scientist” you have no obligation to “call off the marriage” if you score poorly on it.

Good marriage preparation should see a certain percentage of couples call off or at least postpone marriage, otherwise why bother doing it?

That is why before you do anything else, you should do marriage prep. Then, if no red flags are raised, go ahead with all the other preparations. Unfortunately, the reality is that most couples have everything planned to the nth detail before they even start marriage prep (I’ve seen some finish the prep course a week before the wedding). When big bucks have already been spent and there is the possibility of embarrassment, nobody is likely to call things off even if there are flashing red lights and incoming bomb warnings being broadcast.

 

[joandarc2008]

Joandarc (one of my fav saints, btw ): Thanks so much for your encouragement and the explanations… My fiance told me the exact same thing about some people being the problem and not the Church, and I do understand that to a large degree… I’m just worried that when there is a structure that gives people power to prevent a Sacrament based on submission to a secular construct, that it may be tantamount to my offering my soul something which is worldly in an inappropriate manner… and I don’t know if the Orthodox Church does the same thing to people. Of course the whole question here is what constitutes inappropriate in this case, and believe me I really have been trying to discern this because obedience to the Church is part of the core of my faith. This is why it is crucial that I am in the right Church to trust my soul with, and why the incident of being committed to something secular is very frightening to me. Does that make sense?

Tell you a couple little secrets:

1. Excluding someting being illicit about the union - past marriage without anullment - blood relation (ew gross) etc - if a couple wants the Sacrament they will not be turned away. It is kind of like that really surly teenager that all the other parents look at each other and say I can’t believe you are confirming that kid!!

Well, why should the couple be denied the chance at Grace because they don’tget the message YET? Well, that is the point. Unfortunately IMHO that is also why we have so many anullments in America as well. We have a rate of disobedience and cafeteria Catholics who “force” a Sacrament who do not receive the grace. And due to this they have positive findings in their anullments that their marriages were invalid. It is because they never understood the sacrament to begin with.

1. The Orthodox Church also has the anullment process. They do things very similar to us in mariage prep - I Have checked this with a friend of mine who recieved an anullment in the Orthodox Church. He wishes they had the Foccus test.
2. One thing to focus on (sorry abut the pun) is it is not about the personalities it is simply whether or not you have talked about certain things. No matter what you have talked about or how much research you have done it is almost impossible to cover everything on your own.
3. By the way there will be a point in your marriage prep where your marrige prep will erupt into a big argument and the person running it will suggest postponement. If you have been strong you will not postpone but come back with renewed vigor - or if you are extrememely weak and focused on the wedding and not the marriage (which I don’t think is you but I think is most of the US) then you will come back out of stubborness. I have heard this story over and over and over.

 

[manualman]

Might I suggest the possibility that FOCUSS isn’t the issue here as much as is your own background in psychology and the DoD? Perhaps, deep inside, you just aren’t able to believe that the same tool can be used differently by a priest than by a spy agency.

Think of it this way. When they assembled the atom bomb, the arming mechanism cover hatch used simple phillips screws to secure. Should the Japanese people fear and loath Phillips screwdrivers?

Relax! In this case, they are just screwing a doorknob onto the door soon to open between your fiance and yourself. Nobody is going to nuke you.

Why don’t they let you talk during the test? If they did that, everybody’s answer would match, including those of couples where one person dominates the other in all things. Not very helpful, huh? Not that this applies to you, but understand that this is a one size fits all tool.

 

[Ponyguy]

Hi folks…

At the same time, I think I will make notes during the test and do some deep digging into the analytical methods that are employed with this test. I would need to read the papers published on the method (there are very few, and I am really hoping my library has a subscription to these journals). It’s sounds like they are doing a common factor analysis on the data, which is a standard package in the statistics toolbox of MATLAB… OK, I have a plan!

Cool move, “Panda” http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v313/ponyguy/sadpanda.gif!

“Analyze the analyzers while they analyze you.”

Just a thought: Since you seem to have an extensive educational background, don’t you still retain some university connections, so you could access the nece$$ary journals through the University Library?

 

[ComputerGeek25]

I have come to the conclusion that you are, perhaps through no fault of your own, overthinking this. FOCUS is reported by its proponents to be a fairly reliable predictor of marital problems, nothing more, nothing less. “As a scientist” you have no obligation to “call off the marriage” if you score poorly on it. While it might be true that FOCUS accurately predicts certain troubles in most marriages, so what? That in and of itself is not reason to call off a marriage. Most marriages end in divorce, that does not mean that a person of science would be foolish to marry expecting it to last forever. Marriage is not a coin toss, you get to influence the outcome. Take the test. Listen to the instructor and consider what they have to say about the results. Use what is useful to you, disregard what isn’t.

I wouldn’t. You’ve already given it more thought than it warants. Consider it a hoop to be jumped through and move on. When you take the test, be honest.

Also, I still don’t think that FOCUS is what you think it is, the type of test that seeks to “trip you up” by asking the same question several different ways. Try not to attribute a negative motive to a tool that has none. This tiool is being administered to help you. You might find the results helpful in your marriage, you might not. It really can’t hurt anything, other than the fact that I’m sure it’s a couple hours of test-taking and counseling that you’d rather spend doing something you enjoy.

Think of FOCCUS as “areas of improvement.”

It is not meant as a gatekeeper, in the sense that if you’re deemed “incompatible,” the Church won’t deny you the sacrament.

It is meant as a tool for people to understand each oher better. And to know what they are getting into (in theory, this may be one way to reduce anullments).