Disappointed with the pope's anti-capitalist stance

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sjorsvanhens

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Hello,

While I’m not myself a Catholic, I believe that what the pope says affects Christianity as a whole and even secular institutions in Catholic countries. It certainly does in Latin America where I live.

What’s with this anti-capitalist trend that’s been going on with the Catholic Church? Other popes like Leo XIII and Pius XII have strongly condemned communism, but this one sides with “anti-globalist” protesters and now this?

The US is a wealthy nation because of capitalism, not despite it. Latin America, on the other hand, is plagued by government banditry and confiscation of wealth and property in the name of “social justice” everywhere, which only creates more poverty and it’s totally immoral. In Argentina, businesses are closing doors because of the government and there has been sacking of stores and supermarkets.

Latin America desperately needs the pope to discourage this, not stimulate it!
 
Actually I’m kind of glad the Pope spoke out. He’s not talking about destroying capitalism. He just wants some regulation.

No one is saying including the Pope of all people that capitalism should be done away with.
But you have to admit pure capitalism is just down right bad. Mixed markets are where its at.
 
It has been demonstrated by the likes of Ludwig von Mises and Friedrich von Hayek that government planning and intervention in the economy leads to unlimited government and socialism.

All kinds of “mixed economies” are part socialist and every type of welfare is necessarily a forceful confiscation of wealth and ultimately immoral. One does not have to openly advocate socialism in order to bring about it’s consequences in the long run.

What we need is Christian charity not state intervention.
 
mitex said:
Actually I’m kind of glad the Pope spoke out. He’s not talking about destroying capitalism. He just wants some regulation.

No one is saying including the Pope of all people that capitalism should be done away with.
But you have to admit pure capitalism is just down right bad. Mixed markets are where its at.
Click to expand...
I disagree that pure capitalism is just downright bad. It’s fallen, sinful man that’s downright bad and will remain so in every social system. We should condemn sin, not capitalism.

Capitalism is an economic system where the consumer-sovereing has the last word on what society will produce and consume and how much, not the ruler or the state, and so it allows the most freedom.

Thanks to free market economy, not governments, today’s average person (in the West) has higher standards of living than a medieval nobleman.
 
I suggest the parable of the rich young man and the Acts of the Apostles where every Christian sold their belongings and redistributed wealth to the needy.

And I believe the people in the shanty towns of India, Haiti, and South Africa would beg to disagree.
 
sjorsvanhens said:
It has been demonstrated by the likes of Ludwig von Mises and Friedrich von Hayek that government planning and intervention in the economy leads to unlimited government and socialism.
.
Click to expand...
Bolding added.
do you mean “necessarily leads to…”, always leads to…" sometimes leads to…"?:confused:

It would be most helpful if you would post the case studies illustrating your point after responding to this question.
 
It will also be helpful to have a definition of “unlimited government” as it applies to each case study.👍
 
 
jeannetherese said:
It will also be helpful to have a definition of “unlimited government” as it applies to each case study.👍
Click to expand...
Ok, I admit that “unlimited government” is not the most cientific term but what I mean is a dictatorship of the socialist kind.👍
 
The Catholic Church has never supported unrestricted capitalism, or communism. There is a balance between the individual rights to property and the rights of society. This is nothing new. If you read the Mosaic Law you will find such things as the Year of Jubilee in which property reverts to the family whose name it is in and the need to return a cloak for surety before night. Basic charity is part of Christianity.

The Pope is not anti-capitalist. He merely teaches it needs to balaced with charity incoded in restrictions. Certain lines simply can not be crossed because the markey allows it.
 
pnewton said:
The Catholic Church has never supported unrestricted capitalism, or communism. There is a balance between the individual rights to property and the rights of society. This is nothing new. If you read the Mosaic Law you will find such things as the Year of Jubilee in which property reverts to the family whose name it is in and the need to return a cloak for surety before night. Basic charity is part of Christianity.

The Pope is not anti-capitalist. He merely teaches it needs to balaced with charity incoded in restrictions. Certain lines simply can not be crossed because the markey allows it.
Click to expand...
Society´s rights are no more important than individual rights. A society is made of individuals. What I don’t get is why is so much more important to criticize when the rights of society are supposedly being harmed by capitalism and not as important to criticize when individual rights to property are objectively being destroyed by governments in Latin America in the name of “social justice”? This is not just by any means.

And I agree that capitalism needs to be balanced by charity, which should be practiced freely by individuals, not enforced by secular laws.
 
sjorsvanhens said:
It has been demonstrated by the likes of Ludwig von Mises and Friedrich von Hayek that government planning and intervention in the economy leads to unlimited government and socialism.
Click to expand...
the revised argument is: “It has been demonstrated …that government planning and intervention in the economy leads, if unchecked, to unlimited government and socialism.”
I appreciate your links, but note that all sources of information date to the 1920s and 1940s. Neither the German nor Italian example seem to qualify as an example of socialism; they thus make poor case studies for your contention. (definition below)
At this point, we remain in need of case studies which exemplify the contention and a working definition of unlimited government.

oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/socialism
Definition of socialism
noun
[mass noun]
a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.
policy or practice based on the political and economic theory of socialism.
(in Marxist theory) a transitional social state between the overthrow of capitalism and the realization of Communism.

Whoops! I just caught your decision to drop unlimited government in favor of a dictatorship of the socialist kind. Lets work on that after this post.👍
 
the Pope calls it as he sees it: he is just as anti-marxist as he is anti unbridled capitalism.

Unbridled capitalism is just as damaging to the world as marxism. In some ways more, because it is so efficient at exploiting “needs.”

Just look at strip mines in the third world.

Just because the market wants something doesn’t mean it is a bonafide good.

Porn, sugar, alcohol, tobacco, and soap operas for instance.

BTW the five happiest countries in the world have a version of regulated capitalism.

cbc.ca/news/world/story/2012/04/03/canada-happy-survey-says.html

Imagine that: universal health care, AND happy!😉
 
jeannetherese said:
the revised argument is: “It has been demonstrated …that government planning and intervention in the economy leads, if unchecked, to unlimited government and socialism.”
I appreciate your links, but note that all sources of information date to the 1920s and 1940s. Neither the German nor Italian example seem to qualify as an example of socialism; they thus make poor case studies for your contention. (definition below)
At this point, we remain in need of case studies which exemplify the contention and a working definition of unlimited government.

oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/socialism
Definition of socialism
noun
[mass noun]
a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.
policy or practice based on the political and economic theory of socialism.
(in Marxist theory) a transitional social state between the overthrow of capitalism and the realization of Communism.

Whoops! I just caught your decision to drop unlimited government in favor of a dictatorship of the socialist kind. Lets work on that after this post.👍
Click to expand...
We´re being a bit condescending now, aren’t we?

Anyway. The claim that socialism means the ownership of the means of production by the “community as a whole” and not the state is inaccurate and contradicts both theory and practice in history. Mises refuted just that, among other things (see last link I posted before).

Although Mises wrote in the first half of the 20th century, his critique os socialism and interventionism remains sound today and is accepted by mainstream economists. The German and Italian example qualify as socialism. Fascism is a form of socialism.

There’s argument for this, from a catholic author by the way, which I highly recommend:

mises.org/document/6581/Leftism-From-de-Sade-and-Marx-to-Hitler-and-Marcuse
 
triumphguy said:
the Pope calls it as he sees it: he is just as anti-marxist as he is anti unbridled capitalism.

Unbridled capitalism is just as damaging to the world as marxism. In some ways more, because it is so efficient at exploiting “needs.”

Just look at strip mines in the third world.

Just because the market wants something doesn’t mean it is a bonafide good.

Porn, sugar, alcohol, tobacco, and soap operas for instance.

BTW the five happiest countries in the world have a version of regulated capitalism.

cbc.ca/news/world/story/2012/04/03/canada-happy-survey-says.html
Click to expand...
Congratulations Triumph Guy! I see that your country made the list! (of course with the euthanasia laws in a few of those countries, I hope that the high degree of happiness is not partially supported by the elimination of those who are sad).:
I bet we can agree that some regulations are better than others.👍
 
“Too much capitalism does not mean too many capitalists, but too few capitalists.” - Copy to Clipboard
– GK Chesterton

Read Chesterton on capitalism. 🙂
 
sjorsvanhens said:
Hello,

While I’m not myself a Catholic, I believe that what the pope says affects Christianity as a whole and even secular institutions in Catholic countries. It certainly does in Latin America where I live.

What’s with this anti-capitalist trend that’s been going on with the Catholic Church? Other popes like Leo XIII and Pius XII have strongly condemned communism, but this one sides with “anti-globalist” protesters and now this?

The US is a wealthy nation because of capitalism, not despite it. Latin America, on the other hand, is plagued by government banditry and confiscation of wealth and property in the name of “social justice” everywhere, which only creates more poverty and it’s totally immoral. In Argentina, businesses are closing doors because of the government and there has been sacking of stores and supermarkets.

Latin America desperately needs the pope to discourage this, not stimulate it!
Click to expand...
Condemning one extreme does not mean you support the other extreme.
 
triumphguy said:
the Pope calls it as he sees it: he is just as anti-marxist as he is anti unbridled capitalism.

Unbridled capitalism is just as damaging to the world as marxism. In some ways more, because it is so efficient at exploiting “needs.”

Just look at strip mines in the third world.

Just because the market wants something doesn’t mean it is a bonafide good.

Porn, sugar, alcohol, tobacco, and soap operas for instance.

BTW the five happiest countries in the world have a version of regulated capitalism.

cbc.ca/news/world/story/2012/04/03/canada-happy-survey-says.html

Imagine that: universal health care, AND happy!😉
Click to expand...
Capitalists produce what consumers want. It’s not the capitalists fault that consumers want porn etc. If everybody wanted to consume Christian products only a fool would not try to grab a slice of that market by producing them. The social system is not to blame, but sinful man. It’s not society’s fault, but the individuals’. Now, Christ can regenerate the fallen man, the state can’t and shouldn’t.

As for the five happiest countries, I’m not familiar with these countries economic history but I do know that distribution of wealth only works if there’s any wealth to distribute. There is no such thing as third world welfare state. Only the nations that have undergone a process of capital accumulation can afford to do that, and even so only by means of massive deficits and perpetual indebtedness. But now the welfare is beginning to go bankrupt in Europe as well as in the USA. The system is unsustainable.
 
mitex said:
Actually I’m kind of glad the Pope spoke out. He’s not talking about destroying capitalism. He just wants some regulation.

No one is saying including the Pope of all people that capitalism should be done away with.
But you have to admit pure capitalism is just down right bad. Mixed markets are where its at.
Click to expand...
There is in fact no a such thing as a pure market economy, but how to regulate it is hardly a simple matter. The irony is that China manages to have capitalism under a government controlled by a supposedly communist party. Barack Obama just signed --by remote control, I guess-- a tax bill–laden with 80 billion dollars in “pork” for his favorites and he talks like a populist. What is wrong is unlimited power, no matter in whose hands.
 
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