Disappointed with the pope's anti-capitalist stance

[exnihilo]

The problem is the assumption in pure capitalism (without any moderating elements) that profit is the sole purpose of economic transactions and the limitless potencial for selfishly driven individualistic competition to the detriment of the common good and the welfare of others, that many capitalistic economies foster simply ipso facto as a result of the very nature of most forms of capitalism themselves, which share a common propensity of viewing economic issues solely in a materialistic, value-free manner without any government or higher intervention whatsoever and without any moral guidelines or foundations. Its like atheistic opinions of evolution: viewed as purely natural, cause-and-effect, balances and checks without a shred of a moral compass or guiding force from a higher authority. This is a form of idolatry, idolizing the marketplace and unfettered competition.

I don’t think pure capitalism assumes that profit is the sole purpose of economic transactions. Or if it does it does not preclude that people can have other reasons for transactions. Capitalism does not require that people only be motivated by economic considerations. It is really only the idea that unfettered markets produce the most material goods. And this is really an established fact. If one likes to have less material goods because they want to employ buggy whip makers that is a judgement that lies outside of strictly economic considerations. Capitalism as an ideology does not preclude that.

Now, rigid state domination of the economy stifles initiative and enterprise. Communism thus is a miserable “cure” for the evils of capitalism (and I use it in the sense described by myself above) and is in fact a worser beast than the illness. However free-market capitalism is also inherently flawed. The pure pursuit of profit, without regard for consequences creates an unstable economic system. Capitalism, in most of its “purist” forms, exists by pure, selfish individualism.

I’m a pure capitalist but I do not make my decisions based on selfishness, at least I hope not. A capitalist can pay his workers more than the market wage. There is nothing about capitalism that precludes that. There are plenty of examples of businessmen doing just that. So free markets really have nothing to do with pure, selfish individualism.

What interests me is the theory, that must exist, that governments will seek the good of all. If men are selfish such that the free market will lead to nothing but selfish outcomes then how is it that men as political creatures will suddenly not be selfish? I simply don’t understand that. If men are selfish it seems to me that the selfish men will be just as much a part of the government. They will then inflict their selfishness on the people and since the people’s economic freedom has been inhibited, supposedly for the good of the group, they will have lost some means of resisting this selfishness. That seems far worse and harder to overcome

 

[exnihilo]

Capitalism seems to assume that human beings are fundamentally self-interested and that this is beneficial to society. Catholic social teaching, alternatively, holds that human beings are inherently social animals, relational beings or a ‘gift-exchanging’ species and so we are naturally disposed to work together for mutual benefit and in the pursuit of the common good rather than individual welfare at the expense of other people.

Humans are very self-interested. Capitalism just understands and explains that reality. The self-interested man will be making self-interested decisions when they engage in free trade or when they vote to take another man’s money via the state. Capitalism involves men working together voluntarily rather than coercively. The capitalist hires labor. He directs that labor to produce something that would not be produced without his direction. What he builds clearly benefits humanity because men will pay for his final product thus demonstrating its value. Very often what he builds even benefits those who do not buy his product.

How can an economic system which gets its understanding of human nature and desires so fundamentally wrong be “ideal” in any way or in that wise the last word in economics?

That is actually what I would say about all systems but capitalism. Those systems all say man is selfish, and greedy and will seek only his own good without any other moral considerations except when he exercises a vote or is a bureaucrat. That makes no sense and is unjustified.

 

[triumphguy]

Question: Where does “capital” and “profit” come from?

 

[Robert_Sock]

The way the pendulum is swinging, capitalism will give way to corporatism. The hope is that the CEOs adapt true humanitarian values in dealing with world politics. .

 

[buffalo]

Hello,

While I’m not myself a Catholic, I believe that what the pope says affects Christianity as a whole and even secular institutions in Catholic countries. It certainly does in Latin America where I live.

What’s with this anti-capitalist trend that’s been going on with the Catholic Church? Other popes like Leo XIII and Pius XII have strongly condemned communism, but this one sides with “anti-globalist” protesters and now this?

The US is a wealthy nation because of capitalism, not despite it. Latin America, on the other hand, is plagued by government banditry and confiscation of wealth and property in the name of “social justice” everywhere, which only creates more poverty and it’s totally immoral. In Argentina, businesses are closing doors because of the government and there has been sacking of stores and supermarkets.

Latin America desperately needs the pope to discourage this, not stimulate it!

The Pope is probably getting to Distributism.

 

[triumphguy]

Humans are very self-interested. Capitalism just understands and explains that reality. The self-interested man will be making self-interested decisions when they engage in free trade or when they vote to take another man’s money via the state. Capitalism involves men working together voluntarily rather than coercively. The capitalist hires labor. He directs that labor to produce something that would not be produced without his direction. What he builds clearly benefits humanity because men will pay for his final product thus demonstrating its value. Very often what he builds even benefits those who do not buy his product.

That is actually what I would say about all systems but capitalism. Those systems all say man is selfish, and greedy and will seek only his own good without any other moral considerations except when he exercises a vote or is a bureaucrat. That makes no sense and is unjustified.

Which is why we have the Ten Commandments in the OT, and the 2 commandments of the New Testament.

Love God above all THINGS.
Love thy neighbour as thyself!

So even the NT contradicts the fundamentals of Capitalism.

 

[dandingo]

the Pope calls it as he sees it: he is just as anti-marxist as he is anti unbridled capitalism.

Unbridled capitalism is just as damaging to the world as marxism. In some ways more, because it is so efficient at exploiting "needs."

Just look at strip mines in the third world.

Just because the market wants something doesn’t mean it is a bonafide good.

Porn, sugar, alcohol, tobacco, and soap operas for instance.

BTW the five happiest countries in the world have a version of regulated capitalism.

cbc.ca/news/world/story/2012/04/03/canada-happy-survey-says.html

Imagine that: universal health care, AND happy!

I have yet to see Capitalism do anwhere NEAR as much damage as Marxist Secularism has done. Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot, Hitler. All of these dictators were of the Marxist Secular mentality and slaughtered hundreds of millions combined in less than a century. There is no comparison between the good the United States has done for the world, the originator of true Capitalism, and the evil that has manifested because of Marxism. No contest whatsoever.

 

[triumphguy]

I have yet to see Capitalism do anwhere NEAR as much damage as Marxist Secularism has done. Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot, Hitler. All of these dictators were of the Marxist Secular mentality and slaughtered hundreds of millions combined in less than a century. There is no comparison between the good the United States has done for the world, the originator of true Capitalism, and the evil that has manifested because of Marxism. No contest whatsoever.

1. I’m not quantifying. Of course fascist and communist (atheistic) dictatorships are worse and have done far worse to their populations.
2. Hitler wasn’t a Marxist - he was a fascist.
3. Capitalism began in Britain not the US. Adam Smith? British East India Company? Hudson’s Bay Company?
4. Capitalism has been responsible for many negatives too. eg., Over consumption and materialism. The decline of local economies and local communities, customs, and cultures. The westernization of the world. Hollywood. The porn industry. The cult of celebrities. The Credit Crunch. Exploitation of the Third World. Unemployment (capitalism needs 5% unemployment to be efficient). Gross Social and economic inequality. Corporate greed. Wars for profit. Devastation of environments. Multinational Companies that are richer and more powerful than nations and peoples. Genocide. BP oil spill in the Gulf. And more.

Which is why the Pope speaks against unregulated Capitalism.

 

[exnihilo]

1. Capitalism has been responsible for many negatives too. eg., Over consumption and materialism. The decline of local economies and local communities, customs, and cultures. The westernization of the world. Hollywood. The porn industry. The cult of celebrities. The Credit Crunch. Exploitation of the Third World. Unemployment (capitalism needs 5% unemployment to be efficient). Gross Social and economic inequality. Corporate greed. Wars for profit. Devastation of environments. Multinational Companies that are richer and more powerful than nations and peoples. Genocide. BP oil spill in the Gulf. And more.

Capitalism isn’t inherently responsible for any things you list and most problems you identify are far worse when government has more power. This list reminds me of a phrase I like: capitalism is defined as the current economy of the United States. It doesn’t matter how much more regulation has been added since even the day before but the US economy defines capitalism. Of course it seems hard for the US to have been and still be the standard for capitalism when we have so many laws, but people persist in this definition.

True capitalists realize that bad things will happen in the economy. Those who work against capitalism always claim that their system will be Heaven on Earth, but when implemented they always fail. Capitalism is the only realistic system.

 

[Deo_Volente]

Grace & Peace!

I have yet to see Capitalism do anwhere NEAR as much damage as Marxist Secularism has done. Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot, Hitler. All of these dictators were of the Marxist Secular mentality and slaughtered hundreds of millions combined in less than a century. There is no comparison between the good the United States has done for the world, the originator of true Capitalism, and the evil that has manifested because of Marxism. No contest whatsoever.

Dan, it’s best to compare like with like. Marxist Secularism doesn’t sound like an economic system but more like a political ideology. Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot, Hitler…I don’t think you’d find Marx giving his blessing to any of them as none of them represented, enacted or supported the sort of economic or political agenda that Marx wrote about. There’s a lovely book called “Varieties of Fascism” by Eugen Weber that accounts (one way or another) for the dictators you mention.

However, your linking of an economic system with a political ideology actually does illuminate a point here–an economic system does not exist in a political vacuum. So let’s be clear about the nature of capitalism and it’s relationship with the modern liberal / Enlightenment state: market liberalism and social liberalism go hand in hand and are, in fact, two sides of the same coin. They are mutually constructing and mutually supportive. For instance, the principle of the “marketplace of ideas” is the application of capitalist principles to the life of the intellect and those principles require the enforcement of a regime of relativism in the realm of ideas and values. The result is that public assertions of real or binding values cannot be made on the basis that such values represent the truth–they can only be made if the values are sufficiently widespread. And even then, the marketplace of ideas will not and cannot (by its very nature) understand those (or any other) values as truthful because truth is not its concern…and anyway, those now-widespread values may eventually change. Making a truth-claim is pretty meaningless when a value’s worth has nothing to do with it’s truthfulness and more to do with patterns of intellectual consumption. The ultimate effect is that the liberal state is incapable of recognizing anything as actually true.

In this way, the ideologies of Capitalist Liberalism and Marxist Secularism ultimately meet in the Reign of Relativism.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!

 

[dandingo]

1. I’m not quantifying. Of course fascist and communist (atheistic) dictatorships are worse and have done far worse to their populations.
2. Hitler wasn’t a Marxist - he was a fascist.
3. Capitalism began in Britain not the US. Adam Smith? British East India Company? Hudson’s Bay Company?
4. Capitalism has been responsible for many negatives too. eg., Over consumption and materialism. The decline of local economies and local communities, customs, and cultures. The westernization of the world. Hollywood. The porn industry. The cult of celebrities. The Credit Crunch. Exploitation of the Third World. Unemployment (capitalism needs 5% unemployment to be efficient). Gross Social and economic inequality. Corporate greed. Wars for profit. Devastation of environments. Multinational Companies that are richer and more powerful than nations and peoples. Genocide. BP oil spill in the Gulf. And more.

Which is why the Pope speaks against unregulated Capitalism.

1. You say that, ‘Of course fascist and communist (atheistic) dictatorships are worse and have done far worse to their populations.’, but in your original statement you stated that Capitalism was just as bad as Marxism, if not worse. There is no comparison.
2. Of course Hitler was a Fascist. But Marxism is a Materialist view, which eliminates God from the entirety of society, as well as economics and politics.
3. I’m talking about the true Capitalism, which we encounter today. Just like there are different kinds of Socialism and Communism, there are also different kinds and extremes of Capitalism.

Grace & Peace!

Dan, it’s best to compare like with like. Marxist Secularism doesn’t sound like an economic system but more like a political ideology. Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot, Hitler…I don’t think you’d find Marx giving his blessing to any of them as none of them represented, enacted or supported the sort of economic or political agenda that Marx wrote about. There’s a lovely book called “Varieties of Fascism” by Eugen Weber that accounts (one way or another) for the dictators you mention.

However, your linking of an economic system with a political ideology actually does illuminate a point here–an economic system does not exist in a political vacuum. So let’s be clear about the nature of capitalism and it’s relationship with the modern liberal / Enlightenment state: market liberalism and social liberalism go hand in hand and are, in fact, two sides of the same coin. They are mutually constructing and mutually supportive. For instance, the principle of the “marketplace of ideas” is the application of capitalist principles to the life of the intellect and those principles require the enforcement of a regime of relativism in the realm of ideas and values. The result is that public assertions of real or binding values cannot be made on the basis that such values represent the truth–they can only be made if the values are sufficiently widespread. And even then, the marketplace of ideas will not and cannot (by its very nature) understand those (or any other) values as truthful because truth is not its concern…and anyway, those now-widespread values may eventually change. Making a truth-claim is pretty meaningless when a value’s worth has nothing to do with it’s truthfulness and more to do with patterns of intellectual consumption. The ultimate effect is that the liberal state is incapable of recognizing anything as actually true.

In this way, the ideologies of Capitalist Liberalism and Marxist Secularism ultimately meet in the Reign of Relativism.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!

Thanks for your comments. The reason that I’m comparing the two is because TriumphGuy stated that Capitalism was just as bad as Marxism, if not worse.

The problem is that, although Marxism is supposedly a ‘political idealogy’, many Dictators have gotten their ideals from Marxism and applied it to their economics. Redistribution of wealth, removing God from the equation, Materialism. These have both political and economic consequences.

 

[triumphguy]

the Pope calls it as he sees it: he is just as anti-marxist as he is anti unbridled capitalism.

Unbridled capitalism is just as damaging to the world as marxism. In some ways more, because it is so efficient at exploiting “needs.”

Just look at strip mines in the third world.

Just because the market wants something doesn’t mean it is a bonafide good.

Porn, sugar, alcohol, tobacco, and soap operas for instance.

BTW the five happiest countries in the world have a version of regulated capitalism.

cbc.ca/news/world/story/2012/04/03/canada-happy-survey-says.html

Imagine that: universal health care, AND happy!

1. You say that, ‘Of course fascist and communist (atheistic) dictatorships are worse and have done far worse to their populations.’, but in your original statement you stated that Capitalism was just as bad as Marxism, if not worse. There is no comparison.
2. Of course Hitler was a Fascist. But Marxism is a Materialist view, which eliminates God from the entirety of society, as well as economics and politics.
3. I’m talking about the true Capitalism, which we encounter today. Just like there are different kinds of Socialism and Communism, there are also different kinds and extremes of Capitalism.

Thanks for your comments. The reason that I’m comparing the two is because TriumphGuy stated that Capitalism was just as bad as Marxism, if not worse.

The problem is that, although Marxism is supposedly a ‘political idealogy’, many Dictators have gotten their ideals from Marxism and applied it to their economics. Redistribution of wealth, removing God from the equation, Materialism. These have both political and economic consequences.

Where is Marxism now? Or communism? Or utopianism? North Korea, Cuba… and where else.

As I said before, Aetheistic Dictastorships have been responsible for millions of lives.

But nothing beats unbridled capitalism for exploiting need at the expense of local economies, communities, customs, peoples etc.

For instance:
Child labour making the commodities that westerners want.
Child slave labour picking the beans to make our favourite chocolate bars.
Mining companies wiping out indigenous tribes in the Amazon in order to gain access to rich mineral deposits.
I think the porn industry is a prime example of capitalism: with all its dirty little secrets - sexual abuse, objectification of women, the slave trade, the commodification of sex, the glamourizing of sin, clients who’s brain chemistry is changed so they are addicted to pornography.
Tobacco is another such industry.
Many would say that big pharma is just as bad.
Mining companies and oil companies have bad track records too.
How about banking? Hedge funds?

Just to be clear - I’m not “bashing” the USA or capitalism. I made my living a a financial adviser for over a decade (though I’m more than happy to be back teaching).

But we should not be blind to the excesses that “unbridled” capitalism can lead to.

And also note: The Papacy had a hugely significant part in the overthrow of communism 20 or so years ago.

 

[Genesis315]

As a general response to the OP:

I think this is a good read as to the problems with Capitalism and Socialism: Pope Pius XI’s encyclical, Quadragesimo Anno:
vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xi_enc_19310515_quadragesimo-anno_en.html

Check out paragraphs 103 to 120 if you’re pressed for time, but the whole thing is a good read.

 

[exnihilo]

However, your linking of an economic system with a political ideology actually does illuminate a point here–an economic system does not exist in a political vacuum.

Economics used to be called political economy. I think that term had the advantage of stressing the role of government in economics.

Child labour making the commodities that westerners want.
Child slave labour picking the beans to make our favourite chocolate bars.
Mining companies wiping out indigenous tribes in the Amazon in order to gain access to rich mineral deposits.
I think the porn industry is a prime example of capitalism: with all its dirty little secrets - sexual abuse, objectification of women, the slave trade, the commodification of sex, the glamourizing of sin, clients who’s brain chemistry is changed so they are addicted to pornography.
Tobacco is another such industry.
Many would say that big pharma is just as bad.
Mining companies and oil companies have bad track records too.
How about banking? Hedge funds?

Child labor is not a bad thing. Teenagers being bored, getting into drugs and having sex with pregnancies is a much worse thing.

Slave labor is not something unique to capitalism. In the past every society had slave labor including more free market societies. Certainly the communists have been great at providing slave labor.

Regarding mining companies wiping out indigenous peoples you are aware of what the Russians and even modern Chinese do to their peoples living a more primitive life?

Pornography is certainly not good but I’m not sure what it has to do with capitalism. Even if a government suppresses a market there is typically a black market.

Regarding tobacco it seems your main issue is you want the government to regulate the economy to protect us from harmful products. This is a moral judgement. Of course you might be able to get people to use less tobacco but keep in mind the trade off is the government can also ban sodas of a certain size and really anything it can even remotely claim is ‘bad’. One argument is the downsides of complete economic freedom is much better than the downsides of totalitarian control.

Modern banking is completely a creation of the state. It exists because its fractional reserve system is exempt from fraud laws. It is propped up by the Federal Reserve which is given special powers and privileges by the state. It is bailed out when it fails thus allowing bad corporations to continue to exist which would otherwise go bankrupt and in so doing release their assets to more responsible people.

None of your issues are really with capitalism. They are with aspects of the modern western economy which is nowhere close to pure capitalism. The tax rates alone are proof of that. Your issue seems to be when the government is given great power it will abuse it. And capitalism is actually the cure for that.

 

[onenow1]

Hello,

While I’m not myself a Catholic, I believe that what the pope says affects Christianity as a whole and even secular institutions in Catholic countries. It certainly does in Latin America where I live.

What’s with this anti-capitalist trend that’s been going on with the Catholic Church? Other popes like Leo XIII and Pius XII have strongly condemned communism, but this one sides with “anti-globalist” protesters and now this?

The US is a wealthy nation because of capitalism, not despite it. Latin America, on the other hand, is plagued by government banditry and confiscation of wealth and property in the name of “social justice” everywhere, which only creates more poverty and it’s totally immoral. In Argentina, businesses are closing doors because of the government and there has been sacking of stores and supermarkets.

Latin America desperately needs the pope to discourage this, not stimulate it!

Hi,sjorsvanhens, Seems to me undisplined government no matter the kind, endangers freedom of movement in regard to rational thought,such as spending more then we havein resources.

God Bless
onenow1opcorn:

 

[triumphguy]

Economics used to be called political economy. I think that term had the advantage of stressing the role of government in economics.

Child labor is not a bad thing. …

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Bab0PKbKsx4/0.jpg

Slave labor is not something unique to capitalism. In the past every society had slave labor including more free market societies. Certainly the communists have been great at providing slave labor.

Sure - but did you consume the fruits of their slave labour? Do you now?

http://viztv.vizfact.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/gourmet-chocolate-production.jpg http://www.viewzone2.com/chocolate_slave.jpg
http://www.viewzone2.com/chocolate.end.jpg

Regarding mining companies wiping out indigenous peoples you are aware of what the Russians and even modern Chinese do to their peoples living a more primitive life?

Of course - but two wrongs do not make a right

Pornography is certainly not good but I’m not sure what it has to do with capitalism. Even if a government suppresses a market there is typically a black market.

Because it is the most raw example of capitalism

Regarding tobacco it seems your main issue is you want the government to regulate the economy to protect us from harmful products. This is a moral judgement. Of course you might be able to get people to use less tobacco but keep in mind the trade off is the government can also ban sodas of a certain size and really anything it can even remotely claim is ‘bad’. One argument is the downsides of complete economic freedom is much better than the downsides of totalitarian control.

The pope agrees with me so I must be right

Modern banking is completely a creation of the state. It exists because its fractional reserve system is exempt from fraud laws. It is propped up by the Federal Reserve which is given special powers and privileges by the state. It is bailed out when it fails thus allowing bad corporations to continue to exist which would otherwise go bankrupt and in so doing release their assets to more responsible people.

**you do have a point here - **

None of your issues are really with capitalism. They are with aspects of the modern western economy which is nowhere close to pure capitalism. The tax rates alone are proof of that. Your issue seems to be when the government is given great power it will abuse it. And capitalism is actually the cure for that.

Actually my issues are with greed and the exploitation of the weak - whether expressed through marxism, capitalism, feudalism, military dictatorships or anarchy.

Capitalism does not mitigate greed.

And we don’t live in China - we live in the West. And we do have control over our own consumption and our spending.

 

[MarkInOregon]

I disagree that pure capitalism is just downright bad. It’s fallen, sinful man that’s downright bad and will remain so in every social system. We should condemn sin, not capitalism.

Capitalism is an economic system where the consumer-sovereing has the last word on what society will produce and consume and how much, not the ruler or the state, and so it allows the most freedom.

Thanks to free market economy, not governments, today’s average person (in the West) has higher standards of living than a medieval nobleman.

This issue is so much more complex than this. Left unchecked we end up with monopolies and a few people controlling most of the means of production–and ruthlessly driving small producers from the market place–by undercutting them and then raising prices once their competitors are driven from the market place. Employees left on their own have no bargaining power with these producers to obtain a fair wage.

Most of us today have had the benefit of growing up in an affluent society–much of that affluence the result of the hard work of labor movement pioneers–who obtained for us decent wages, the ability to bargain as a group. etc. We with our short term view and lack of knowledge regarding history tend to think things were always like this or that we have entered some new era in human existence and things can never return to the way they were.

Free markets need assistence to stay free or they end up in the hands of a few and not so free–and that is not good for anyone. History is full of abuses, abuses which continue today. No one is talking about the government owning the means of production but some regulation is needed. Sometimes the government needs to do something for the good of the nation that private business simply will not do. Interstate Highways for instance help us all --including the “self-made” capitalist who did it “all on his own”. Rural electrification was a good thing in my opinion–and if america had waited for private utilities to do it --I think they’d still be waiting. These are just two examples of things that have helped to raise our standard of living and that also help the “self-made” capitalist to be successful–that private industry on its own simply would not have done–would not have invested in but that make america better. An open highway system is in my opinion better than a patchwork of private toll roads. We could go on. There needs to be a balance but unfettered capitalism doesn’t seem to work any better than unfettered goverment–what is needed is a balance.

Peace,
Mark

 

[pnewton]

I think we do not know fully just how harmful greedy capitalism can be. We have millions slaughtered in America upon the altar of convienence. We have killed more than Hitler in our capitalistic society. Even then, that is not the worst. I think we will never know this side of heaven how many souls will be lost to the false gods of this age.

So, I understand why the Holy Father warns against the dangers of capitalism, if greed is the motivatior and mercy is removed. It is something to consider since we leave with capitalism, lest we lose our soul. It is not the system that is evil, but all economic systems have their own temptations. Let us not think for a moment that capitalism is somehow divinely ordained and inspired.

 

[wynnejj]

The -]only/-] main problem with capitalism is there is no cap.

It makes no sense that an individual could amass such wealth & power whose net worth could finance the needs to feed, clothe, shelter, educate, and provide health care & retirement plans for whole towns.

 

[oldcatholicguy]

Child labor is not a bad thing. Teenagers being bored, getting into drugs and having sex with pregnancies is a much worse thing.

You apparently have a very limited understanding of the subject of child labor if you think “child” equates to “teenager.”