Disappointed with the pope's anti-capitalist stance

[triumphguy]

And between Child labour on one extreme and pregnant teens on the other there is the middle ground of school, sports teams, drama clubs, friends, church youth groups.

 

[exnihilo]

You apparently have a very limited understanding of the subject of child labor if you think “child” equates to “teenager.”

Actually I understand it very well. My great grandparents were evil people who demanded their young children perform dangerous farm labor. If only we had had big government back then to lock those evil people up. I imagine lots of people have such villains in their family.

 

[dandingo]

And between Child labour on one extreme and pregnant teens on the other there is the middle ground of school, sports teams, drama clubs, friends, church youth groups.

You do know that Child Labor has virtually nothing to do with us? How are we to regulate something that happens in a Communist country under a Communist Regime?

I would love to stop dealing with China and other similar countries but it seems everyone at the top doesn’t want their buddies to lose their Chinese trading benefits.

 

[oldcatholicguy]

Actually I understand it very well. My great grandparents were evil people who demanded their young children perform dangerous farm labor. If only we had had big government back then to lock those evil people up. I imagine lots of people have such villains in their family.

Another sign you hold mistaken views concerning child labor laws. Children working on family farms (or in the field of agriculture) and living in rural areas were taken into account when the laws were drawn up.

 

[Faithdancer]

Thanks to free market economy, not governments, today’s average person (in the West) has higher standards of living than a medieval nobleman.

This hadn’t occurred to me before but it certainly rings true. Perhaps I shall give myself a lordly title, and start wearing more satin and fur…

 

[triumphguy]

Actually I understand it very well. My great grandparents were evil people who demanded their young children perform dangerous farm labor. If only we had had big government back then to lock those evil people up. I imagine lots of people have such villains in their family.

I’m sorry, but your deliberately obtuse response angers me. That is NOT the kind of labour these kids perform.

1. You were in a (presumably) happy family
2. You were presumably well fed and clothes appropriately.
3. The work was done with loving adults supervising and training you.
4. You were working for your family, not an anonymous corporation.
5. And presumably your family sent you to school so you could become literate.

You were not working in a factory at age 6, or working down a mine or brick works were you? Or being beaten for under-performing. Nor did you family have to send you out to work for strangers in dangerous environments in order for the income you could bring in.

The kind of work you did as a child on your family built you as a person (and was a privileged lifestyle which I would love to provide my kids, but cannot afford the land), it did not exploit your innocence as a child.

http://newspaper.li/static/b542b7ac91097379a180b1343e755f8b.jpg http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-NG9-7BpcTUs/UFIw140p8NI/AAAAAAAAADk/zoYnZT1TFAs/s1600/girl-bricks-big.jpg

 

[triumphguy]

You do know that Child Labor has virtually nothing to do with us? How are we to regulate something that happens in a Communist country under a Communist Regime?

I would love to stop dealing with China and other similar countries but it seems everyone at the top doesn’t want their buddies to lose their Chinese trading benefits.

Well if we boycotted Walmart much of China’s economy would grind to a halt.

 

[anp1215]

the Pope calls it as he sees it: he is just as anti-marxist as he is anti unbridled capitalism.

Unbridled capitalism is just as damaging to the world as marxism. In some ways more, because it is so efficient at exploiting “needs.”

Just look at strip mines in the third world.

Just because the market wants something doesn’t mean it is a bonafide good.

Porn, sugar, alcohol, tobacco, and soap operas for instance.

BTW the five happiest countries in the world have a version of regulated capitalism.

cbc.ca/news/world/story/2012/04/03/canada-happy-survey-says.html

Imagine that: universal health care, AND happy!

 

[exnihilo]

Another sign you hold mistaken views concerning child labor laws. Children working on family farms (or in the field of agriculture) and living in rural areas were taken into account when the laws were drawn up.

I don’t understand what you are saying. Children working on family farms was and is child labor. Are you saying that some child labor is OK but others forms are not? If so why are some good and others not? And if there are good versions why do you condemn all versions including the good?

I’m sorry, but your deliberately obtuse response angers me. That is NOT the kind of labour these kids perform.

1. You were in a (presumably) happy family
2. You were presumably well fed and clothes appropriately.
3. The work was done with loving adults supervising and training you.
4. You were working for your family, not an anonymous corporation.
5. And presumably your family sent you to school so you could become literate.

You were not working in a factory at age 6, or working down a mine or brick works were you? Or being beaten for under-performing. Nor did you family have to send you out to work for strangers in dangerous environments in order for the income you could bring in.

The kind of work you did as a child on your family built you as a person (and was a privileged lifestyle which I would love to provide my kids, but cannot afford the land), it did not exploit your innocence as a child.

I was not forced to do farm labor my grandparents were. I was forced to do household labor. It seems you are saying that some forms of child labor are OK. I agree. So why do you broadly condemn child labor? It seems what you meant to condemn was mistreatment of people. And I agree, people should not be mistreated. But if you consider beatings of children mistreatment then again you are condemning lots of people’s forefathers. The treatment of children at the hands of parents was often harsh in the past. But harsh treatment is not intrinsic to child labor.

 

[triumphguy]

I don’t understand what you are saying. Children working on family farms was and is child labor. Are you saying that some child labor is OK but others forms are not? If so why are some good and others not? And if there are good versions why do you condemn all versions including the good?

I was not forced to do farm labor my grandparents were. I was forced to do household labor. It seems you are saying that some forms of child labor are OK. I agree. So why do you broadly condemn child labor? It seems what you meant to condemn was mistreatment of people. And I agree, people should not be mistreated. But if you consider beatings of children mistreatment then again you are condemning lots of people’s forefathers. The treatment of children at the hands of parents was often harsh in the past. But harsh treatment is not intrinsic to child labor.

Because CHORES are not child labor. Child Labor is the exploitation of children for greed and profit

These kinds of things are “Child Labor:” work in factories, mines, kilns, sweatshops, plantations, armies, and the sex trade.

work which is quite suitable for a strong man cannot rightly be required from a woman or a child. And, in regard to children, great care should be taken not to place them in workshops and factories until their bodies and minds are sufficiently developed. For, just as very rough weather destroys the buds of spring, so does too early an experience of life’s hard toil blight the young promise of a child’s faculties, and render any true education impossible. vatican.va/holy_father/leo_xiii/encyclicals/documents/hf_l-xiii_enc_15051891_rerum-novarum_en.html

**The forced recruitment of children for armed conflict, **deemed one of the worst forms of child labour, is also on the rise.” The same source stated that debt-bondage and slavery-like practices are widespread “on the agricultural plantations of such West Africa countries as Benin, Burkina Faso, Ivory Coast, Mali and Togo as well as on sugar cane plantations of the Dominican Republic and Haiti” vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/migrants/pom2007-105/rc_pc_migrants_pom105_migration-slaveries-marchetto.html

.

Two hundred-fifty million children under the age of 15 work, and between 50 and 60 million of them work in dangerous conditions. According to the International Labour Organization, 120 million children of both sexes, from the ages of 5 to 14, work full time, many of them six days a week and some for seven. They are frequently forced to work **locked up in badly-lit rooms without ventilation, with armed guards to prevent them from escaping. **vatican.va/roman_curia/secretariat_state/2003/documents/rc_seg-st_20030521_oms_en.html

The overall situation of children around the world is very far from satisfying. **Many children suffer from the evils of war, poverty, sickness, child labor, abominable sexual exploitation and kidnapping, even for the purpose of supplying organs for transplants. **vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/family/documents/rc_pc_family_doc_20010329_jub-fam-conclusion_en.html

 

[triumphguy]

Sorry to belabour this point:

According to a new National Labor Committee report, an estimated 200 children, some 11 years old or even younger, are sewing clothing for Hanes, Wal-Mart, J.C. Penney, and Puma at the Harvest Rich factory in Bangladesh.

The children report being routinely slapped and beaten, sometimes falling down from exhaustion, forced to work 12 to 14 hours a day, even some all-night, 19-to-20-hour shifts, often seven days a week, for wages as low as 6 ½ cents an hour. The wages are so wretchedly low that many of the child workers get up at 5:00 a.m. each morning to brush their teeth using just their finger and ashes from the fire, since they cannot afford a toothbrush or toothpaste. law.harvard.edu/programs/lwp/NLC_childlabor.html

I was just doing some research on line to answer the points in this thread, but unfortunately I’ve come to realize once more that much of our global economy exploits the weak.

Since I am once again conscious of this I must decide what to do about it, or let the thought sink back down to a dim memory: but that would be sinful wouldn’t it?

 

[oldcatholicguy]

I don’t understand what you are saying.

You’ve made that rather clear. As I’ve pointed out before, you have a mistaken understanding of what is meant by child labor and what child labor laws are for.

 

[pnewton]

Actually I understand it very well. My great grandparents were evil people who demanded their young children perform dangerous farm labor.

You said they were evil and I am not going to argue the point. I can not imagine a parent who would put their own children in danger instead of doing the task themselves. The fact that child labor is even debated on a Catholic forum is disturbing. But make no mistake, the child labor that is being discussed is using other children (not your own) in factories and such, not in the home. Let us not offer up some* weak substitute of straw,* like have a child do chores, in place of foreign sweat shops that abuse children and make their lives hell.

I think everyone else posting here gets this but you, so there is no need to perpetuate it.

 

[triumphguy]

You said they were evil and I am not going to argue the point. I can not imagine a parent who would put their own children in danger instead of doing the task themselves. The fact that child labor is even debated on a Catholic forum is disturbing. But make no mistake, the child labor that is being discussed is using other children (not your own) in factories and such, not in the home. Let us not offer up some* weak substitute of straw,* like have a child do chores, in place of foreign sweat shops that abuse children and make their lives hell.

I think everyone else posting here gets this but you, so there is no need to perpetuate it.

In the interests of fairness I think exnihilo was being a bit sarcastic there, and doesn’t really think his/her grandparents were evil.

But - your point remains about child labor. And it is rather disturbing that we would have to argue the point on a Catholic forum.

I would say that on a rising scale of grave sin that forcing children to work in conditions like I’ve mentioned above for profit would rank alongside pedophilia.

 

[dandingo]

Because CHORES are not child labor. Child Labor is the exploitation of children for greed and profit

These kinds of things are “Child Labor:” work in factories, mines, kilns, sweatshops, plantations, armies, and the sex trade.

.

Have you noticed that in regards to virtually everything you’ve posted regarding child labor and other ‘evil’ capitalist things, virtually none, if none at all, occur in predominantly Capitalist countries, such as America and Canada?

Yes, our countries buy these goods. One of the main reasons we have many of our products made in China is because now there are so many taxes and regulations any and everything, no business would be sustainable. It’s a vicious cycle that isn’t easily fixed. I would estimate that the majority of people that buy the products that are done by these evil atrocities have no idea the horrific conditions they endure. That doesn’t make it right or OK, but it’s the truth.

It isn’t as simple as boycotting Walmart and Chinese-made products. These products are in, not only everything that people want, but most things that people need. Try buying a car that doesn’t have nuts or bolts made by children. Or pipe fittings that run clean water to our faucets.

People hate America for supposedly being ‘war mongers’ but we’re always the first ones to liberate the countries that exploit many of the things you speak of. We’re the ones trying to spread true liberty throughout the world. That is, pure freedom from all of the atrocities that occur.

 

[oldcatholicguy]

Have you noticed that in regards to virtually everything you’ve posted regarding child labor and other ‘evil’ capitalist things, virtually none, if none at all, occur in predominantly Capitalist countries, such as America and Canada?

Yes, our countries buy these goods. One of the main reasons we have many of our products made in China is because now there are so many taxes and regulations any and everything, no business would be sustainable. It’s a vicious cycle that isn’t easily fixed. I would estimate that the majority of people that buy the products that are done by these evil atrocities have no idea the horrific conditions they endure. That doesn’t make it right or OK, but it’s the truth.

It isn’t as simple as boycotting Walmart and Chinese-made products. These products are in, not only everything that people want, but most things that people need. Try buying a car that doesn’t have nuts or bolts made by children. Or pipe fittings that run clean water to our faucets.

People hate America for supposedly being ‘war mongers’ but we’re always the first ones to liberate the countries that exploit many of the things you speak of. We’re the ones trying to spread true liberty throughout the world. That is, pure freedom from all of the atrocities that occur.

Child labor practices as described by Triumph don’t usually occur in the US or Canada today because we have child labor laws. Why do we have child labor laws? Because the practices as described by Triumph used to occur (and were common) in the US and Canada.

As for Triumph’s post somehow being anti-American, I suggest you review what he was actually responding to, namely the idea that child labor is a good thing. If viewing child labor as a bad thing is considered to be anti-American go ahead and apply that label to me as well. I’ll wear it proudly.

 

[triumphguy]

Have you noticed that in regards to virtually everything you’ve posted regarding child labor and other ‘evil’ capitalist things, virtually none, if none at all, occur in predominantly Capitalist countries, such as America and Canada?

Yes, our countries buy these goods. One of the main reasons we have many of our products made in China is because now there are so many taxes and regulations any and everything, no business would be sustainable. It’s a vicious cycle that isn’t easily fixed. I would estimate that the majority of people that buy the products that are done by these evil atrocities have no idea the horrific conditions they endure. That doesn’t make it right or OK, but it’s the truth.

It isn’t as simple as boycotting Walmart and Chinese-made products. These products are in, not only everything that people want, but most things that people need. Try buying a car that doesn’t have nuts or bolts made by children. Or pipe fittings that run clean water to our faucets.

People hate America for supposedly being ‘war mongers’ but we’re always the first ones to liberate the countries that exploit many of the things you speak of. We’re the ones trying to spread true liberty throughout the world. That is, pure freedom from all of the atrocities that occur.

There is desperate inequity in North America too. 5000 homeless in Calgary while 150 billion dollars of development is going on in the Northern part of the province.

Be that as it may - the West is also the largest consumer of the 3 world’s products - and not just consumer, but investor etc., etc. We spend money (and it’s not just the US that “liberates” the poor) to fight oppression, and then support and bolster that oppression with our consumer dollars.

Yes, it’s a tricky spiral.

 

[jeannetherese]

Have you noticed that in regards to virtually everything you’ve posted regarding child labor and other ‘evil’ capitalist things, virtually none, if none at all, occur in** predominantly Capitalist countries,** such as America and Canada?

Yes, our countries buy these goods. One of the main reasons we have many of our products made in China is because now there are so many taxes and regulations any and everything, no business would be sustainable.

These products are in, not only everything that people want, but most things that people need. Try buying a car that doesn’t have nuts or bolts made by children. Or pipe fittings that run clean water to our faucets.

People hate America for supposedly being ‘war mongers’ but we’re always the first ones to liberate the countries that exploit many of the things you speak of. We’re the ones trying to spread true liberty throughout the world. That is, pure freedom from all of the atrocities that occur.

Hi Dandingo, I added some bolding to your quote, because I am curious as to whether you think of Panama, El Salvador, Honduras, Guatemala, Mexico as capitalist? You will find child labor in any of these countries.
I appreciated your point about outsourcing due to increased regulation in the U.S. It brought to mind a scholarly research paper written by Dr. Steve Marquardt: “’Green Havoc’: Panama Disease, Environmental Change, and Labor Process in the Central American Banana Industry, American Historical Review106 (2001): 49–80.
The paper document s the exportation of pesticides and herbicides banned in the U.S. to Central America to the banana plantatons of Central America. A brief review of the history of the region illustrates a high degree of political, economic and corporate involvement (Dole/Chiquita/Del Monte) by the U.S.
Mr. Marquart researched correlations between workers on these plantations exposure to these chemicals and high rates of male infertility. (Entire families are laboring on the plantations). Over time, he found that many of the male workers lost their ability to co-create children.
Of course, our outsourcing of these chemicals and of this form of production comes back to us in cheap, pest free, bananas, but at what cost to these workers and at what cost to our own families who do not know about the conditions under which their food has been grown? Their men, our men, their children, (or children that might have been…) our children…their exposure, and, to a lesser extent, our exposure: it’s a small world after all.
I agree with you about the challenge of finding some U.S. made products, and thought you might appreciate this article about building a madi in the U.S.A. home, and its source list for made in the U.S.A. construction materials.
abcnews.go.com/blogs/business/2011/10/how-to-build-a-made-in-america-home/
I was especially in fascinated with the authors’ note that the cost of this U.S. sourced house was only 1-2% greater than building a foreign sourced house. The security that comes with knowing that regulations might protect your family from the problems associated with wallboard made in China might make that seem extra affordable.
As for U.S. interventions, I’ll leave a few links with slightly different takes,(some more detailed than others) each documenting interventions over time. Two focus on Latin America and the third is global.
I wonder: how many people in this country might describe foreign interventions such as these on U.S. soil as acts of liberation? Why? …or why not?
yachana.org/teaching//resources/interventions.html
faculty.chass.ncsu.edu/griffin/ps543/Timeline%20of%20US-Latin%20American%20Relations%20since%201823.htm
history.navy.mil/wars/foabroad.htm
May God bless the Americas. Amen

 

[exnihilo]

In the interests of fairness I think exnihilo was being a bit sarcastic there, and doesn’t really think his/her grandparents were evil.

Not at all. The evilness of my ancestors is inescapable. If child labor is evil and I know my ancestors made their children toil often in dangerous work then they must have been evil. The original purpose of my questioning why child labor is bad is because I can’t believe all child labor is bad. Certainly some forms are bad but I imagine in most places where child labor is condemned they have bad working conditions for everyone. It is probably more of a general condition than anything specific to their child labor.

The West was built on a society that accepted having children do serious, dangerous work. Now we condemn other poor countries trying to prosper for working their children. Since I’m not a relativist if working children is bad then I had some very bad ancestors as did most people.

 

[triumphguy]

Not at all. The evilness of my ancestors is inescapable. If child labor is evil and I know my ancestors made their children toil often in dangerous work then they must have been evil. The original purpose of my questioning why child labor is bad is because I can’t believe all child labor is bad. Certainly some forms are bad but I imagine in most places where child labor is condemned they have bad working conditions for everyone. It is probably more of a general condition than anything specific to their child labor.

The West was built on a society that accepted having children do serious, dangerous work. Now we condemn other poor countries trying to prosper for working their children. Since I’m not a relativist if working children is bad then I had some very bad ancestors as did most people.

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