Disappointed with the pope's anti-capitalist stance

[Alicia05]

Hello,

While I’m not myself a Catholic, I believe that what the pope says affects Christianity as a whole and even secular institutions in Catholic countries. It certainly does in Latin America where I live.

What’s with this anti-capitalist trend that’s been going on with the Catholic Church? Other popes like Leo XIII and Pius XII have strongly condemned communism, but this one sides with “anti-globalist” protesters and now this?

The US is a wealthy nation because of capitalism, not despite it. Latin America, on the other hand, is plagued by government banditry and confiscation of wealth and property in the name of “social justice” everywhere, which only creates more poverty and it’s totally immoral. In Argentina, businesses are closing doors because of the government and there has been sacking of stores and supermarkets.

Latin America desperately needs the pope to discourage this, not stimulate it!

I agree with almost everything you said in this thread! I’m a big fan of Austrian economics and libertarianism, so I, too, am disappointed when the Popes say something about how we need some government intervention to keep capitalism in check…

Have you read Thomas Woods’ work on this subject? From what I understand, he is a Lutheran-to-Catholic convert:
tomwoods.com/socialteaching/
There are many other Catholic libertarians, but unfortunately I’m not sure who else has written on this subject specifically…

God bless!

 

[Alicia05]

OP, there is also a group on CAF that is called CAF Libertarians, if you’re interested!

 

[triumphguy]

Ya know - we don’t really have a leg to stand on. If the Pope has something to say, we should listen respectfully, and give our intellectual assent.

Disappointment don’t come into it.

We don’t have a right to have our favourite economic system to be given the *imprimatur *by the Pope.

 

[exnihilo]

Ya know - we don’t really have a leg to stand on. If the Pope has something to say, we should listen respectfully, and give our intellectual assent.

Even as a Protestant I believe the Pope’s words should be given great consideration and certainly respect because of his position. But it is my understanding that a Catholic is not obliged to give his assent to just any words of the Pope. There are conditions and none of those seem to have been met. My issue is not with the moral content but potentially with the economic and political judgement.

 

[triumphguy]

Even as a Protestant I believe the Pope’s words should be given great consideration and certainly respect because of his position. But it is my understanding that a Catholic is not obliged to give his assent to just any words of the Pope. There are conditions and none of those seem to have been met. My issue is not with the moral content but potentially with the economic and political judgement.

Catholic social teaching has NEVER supported ANY economic or political system.

In fact there are many important documents of the Church (starting with Rerum Novarum) which absolutely do require assent that have said basically the same thing as the Pope Benedict said recently.

 

[triumphguy]

For instance: Pope Leo XIII said this in 1891:

Hence, by degrees it has come to pass that working men have been surrendered, isolated and helpless, to the hardheartedness of employers and the greed of unchecked competition. The mischief has been increased by rapacious usury, which, although more than once condemned by the Church, is nevertheless, under a different guise, but with like injustice, still practiced by covetous and grasping men. To this must be added that the hiring of labor and the conduct of trade are concentrated in the hands of comparatively few; so that a small number of very rich men have been able to lay upon the teeming masses of the laboring poor a yoke little better than that of slavery itself. (“Rerum Novarum,” No. 3).

Yes UNCHECKED - sounds like **unregulated **to me!

… it lies in the power of a ruler to benefit every class in the State, and amongst the rest to promote to the utmost the interests of the poor; and this in virtue of his office, and without being open to suspicion of undue interference - since it is the province of the commonwealth to serve the common good. And the more that is done for the benefit of the working classes by the general laws of the country, the less need will there be to seek for special means to relieve them. RN 32

And this very important paragraph, citing St. Thomas Aquinas and distributive justice:

The members of the working classes are citizens by nature and by the same right as the rich; they are real parts, living the life which makes up, through the family, the body of the commonwealth; and it need hardly be said that they are in every city very largely in the majority. It would be irrational to neglect one portion of the citizens and favor another, and therefore the public administration must duly and solicitously provide for the welfare and the comfort of the working classes; otherwise, that law of justice will be violated which ordains that each man shall have his due. To cite the wise words of St. Thomas Aquinas: “As the part and the whole are in a certain sense identical, so that which belongs to the whole in a sense belongs to the part.”(27) Among the many and grave duties of rulers who would do their best for the people, the first and chief is to act with strict justice - with that justice which is called distributive - toward each and every class alike. RN 33

And I could go on in a similar vein through another hundred years of Church teaching.

 

[dandingo]

Hi Dandingo, I added some bolding to your quote, because I am curious as to whether you think of Panama, El Salvador, Honduras, Guatemala, Mexico as capitalist? You will find child labor in any of these countries.
I appreciated your point about outsourcing due to increased regulation in the U.S. It brought to mind a scholarly research paper written by Dr. Steve Marquardt: “’Green Havoc’: Panama Disease, Environmental Change, and Labor Process in the Central American Banana Industry, American Historical Review106 (2001): 49–80.
The paper document s the exportation of pesticides and herbicides banned in the U.S. to Central America to the banana plantatons of Central America. A brief review of the history of the region illustrates a high degree of political, economic and corporate involvement (Dole/Chiquita/Del Monte) by the U.S.
Mr. Marquart researched correlations between workers on these plantations exposure to these chemicals and high rates of male infertility. (Entire families are laboring on the plantations). Over time, he found that many of the male workers lost their ability to co-create children.
Of course, our outsourcing of these chemicals and of this form of production comes back to us in cheap, pest free, bananas, but at what cost to these workers and at what cost to our own families who do not know about the conditions under which their food has been grown? Their men, our men, their children, (or children that might have been…) our children…their exposure, and, to a lesser extent, our exposure: it’s a small world after all.
I agree with you about the challenge of finding some U.S. made products, and thought you might appreciate this article about building a madi in the U.S.A. home, and its source list for made in the U.S.A. construction materials.
abcnews.go.com/blogs/business/2011/10/how-to-build-a-made-in-america-home/
I was especially in fascinated with the authors’ note that the cost of this U.S. sourced house was only 1-2% greater than building a foreign sourced house. The security that comes with knowing that regulations might protect your family from the problems associated with wallboard made in China might make that seem extra affordable.
As for U.S. interventions, I’ll leave a few links with slightly different takes,(some more detailed than others) each documenting interventions over time. Two focus on Latin America and the third is global.
I wonder: how many people in this country might describe foreign interventions such as these on U.S. soil as acts of liberation? Why? …or why not?
yachana.org/teaching//resources/interventions.html
faculty.chass.ncsu.edu/griffin/ps543/Timeline%20of%20US-Latin%20American%20Relations%20since%201823.htm
history.navy.mil/wars/foabroad.htm
May God bless the Americas. Amen

Hi there Jeanne,

To be honest, I know next to nil about most Latin American countries, which I painfully regret. I should really learn about them but it’s difficult when the majority of news in the MSM, as well as smaller media outlets, is of Europe, Asia, the Middle East and North America.

I do know a man very well that has worked for my dad in construction for the past 2-3 years who’s an immigrant from Guatemala. He has told me stories of his home country, as I speak ‘decent’ Spanish and I love practicing. He had a very large farm with plenty of land, animals and even a few cars.

He was ‘well off’ in Guatemala but informed me he will never go back except to see family. The reason? If someone sees you with a car, they know you have money, or goods, and will murder you for it. He was threatened multiple times. He would rather risk the trip to America, work for much less than he made there all because of these threats. He even stated that the economy isn’t bad there. There is money to be made. What it boils down to is evil and the jealous mentality. Also, police will virtually never get involved there.

Now, this is one man’s experience with living in Guatemala his entire life and I don’t know if it’s indicative of the entire country, but to leave a financially stable life and the majority of your family and friends says quite a bit about the dangers of living there. In other words, it isn’t necessarily the economy, but the mentality and morale.

As to building supplies all made in America, that is incredibly awesome! If and when I’m able to build a house, I will do that to the best of my ability. Very cool.

Your wall of text is a lot to take in but I hope you feel my answers were sufficient.

I agree; God bless America (although I don’t think He will until we stop reveling in the murder of innocent babies and taking Him out of any and everything.)!

 

[dandingo]

For instance: Pope Leo XIII said this in 1891:

Yes UNCHECKED - sounds like **unregulated **to me!

And this very important paragraph, citing St. Thomas Aquinas and distributive justice:

And I could go on in a similar vein through another hundred years of Church teaching.

In Aquinas’ day, the rich extorted the poor to extremes we can’t comprehend. Today, it’s the opposite. Those who are considered poor, who pay absolutely no income tax and other taxes, are able to vote for those who are ‘rich’ to give them even more of their hard-earned money without having to do anything to earn it. The tax rates at his time were around 10-15%, where now the taxes for the ‘rich’ are well over 50% when you incorporate income tax, property tax, state tax and Medicare, SS and everything else.

Do you find that fair?

 

[oldcatholicguy]

In Aquinas’ day, the rich extorted the poor to extremes we can’t comprehend. Today, it’s the opposite. Those who are considered poor, who pay absolutely no income tax and other taxes, are able to vote for those who are ‘rich’ to give them even more of their hard-earned money without having to do anything to earn it.

Do you find that fair?

If you are going to argue that the poor can now “vote” the rich into giving them money, you need to take into account the impact money (from rich individuals and corporations) has on elections and the development of our laws.

 

[rfournier103]

Hello,

While I’m not myself a Catholic, I believe that what the pope says affects Christianity as a whole and even secular institutions in Catholic countries. It certainly does in Latin America where I live.

What’s with this anti-capitalist trend that’s been going on with the Catholic Church? Other popes like Leo XIII and Pius XII have strongly condemned communism, but this one sides with “anti-globalist” protesters and now this?

The US is a wealthy nation because of capitalism, not despite it. Latin America, on the other hand, is plagued by government banditry and confiscation of wealth and property in the name of “social justice” everywhere, which only creates more poverty and it’s totally immoral. In Argentina, businesses are closing doors because of the government and there has been sacking of stores and supermarkets.

Latin America desperately needs the pope to discourage this, not stimulate it!

As an American, I totally support capitalism! However, as we are in the most serious ecconomic crisis since the Great Depression, what is needed is FAIR Trade, not Free Trade.

Families here in the United States are going hungry and losing their houses because it’s cheaper to make stuff in China; with laborers making just a few dollars a month with no environmental regulations, no safety regulations, and no benefits (health, pension, etc…) Is this the kind of “Free Trade” you want?

Nobody (including the pope) wants anything taken away from anyone. At least not here in the US; but how about a little fairness, decency, and ethics?

 

[triumphguy]

In Aquinas’ day, the rich extorted the poor to extremes we can’t comprehend. Today, it’s the opposite. Those who are considered poor, who pay absolutely no income tax and other taxes, are able to vote for those who are ‘rich’ to give them even more of their hard-earned money without having to do anything to earn it. The tax rates at his time were around 10-15%, where now the taxes for the ‘rich’ are well over 50% when you incorporate income tax, property tax, state tax and Medicare, SS and everything else.

Do you find that fair?

I absolutely support progressive taxation.

The rich are FAR richer now than ever before; and don’t forget we are not just talking about individuals here, but corporations which have the same rights (and more) than real live persons.

For instance a scandal in the UK right now is that Starbucks, Amazon and Google pay less tax as a multi-billion dollar entities than any of its employees pays individually!

Starbucks has paid NO tax in the last 4 years!

I can’t get away with that, and neither can you!

 

[exnihilo]

Catholic social teaching has NEVER supported ANY economic or political system.

Is that really the case? What do you mean by support? It is one thing to condemn an aspect of economic life and another to condemn a system. I thought the Catholic Church had wisely made some statements condemning communism or fundamental aspects of that system. If so then the church has at least condemned some systems. I would not be surprised if the church did not proclaim a specific system as the best or only good system. Of course we should keep in mind God’s creation is described as a kingdom.

Yes UNCHECKED - sounds like **unregulated **to me!

I don’t think they must be the same. Unchecked does not mean unchecked by the state. The state is not the solution to all problems. Actually it may be in our times. But it shouldn’t be. Again any theory that proposes to solve problems of greed and exploitation will have to explain how men will be greedy and exploitative in their private business transactions but not so when they vote or act as a bureaucrat. I’ve mentioned that very issue in this thread and it has gone unanswered.

And this very important paragraph, citing St. Thomas Aquinas and distributive justice:

Aristotle was a great biologist for his time but many of his ideas were later shown to be wrong. I love St. Thomas but economic knowledge has increased vastly since his time. Both are some of the wisest men to have walked the Earth but both had limits. The moral issues Thomas addresses are valid, but he might be mistaken about the best means to fix those problems or how an economy functions.

 

[jeannetherese]

Hi there Jeanne,

To be honest, I know next to nil about most Latin American countries, which I painfully regret. I should really learn about them but it’s difficult when the majority of news in the MSM, as well as smaller media outlets, is of Europe, Asia, the Middle East and North America.

The reason? If someone sees you with a car, they know you have money, or goods, and will murder you for it. He was threatened multiple times. He would rather risk the trip to America, work for much less than he made there all because of these threats.

I agree; God bless America (although I don’t think He will until we stop reveling in the murder of innocent babies and taking Him out of any and everything.)!

HI Dan,
Isn’t it ironic that in the age of information it is such a challenge for us to get the information we need? I agree with you about the problem of mainstream media.
One thing that I do in an effort to get different perspectives is spend time at Netpapers.com, checking out newspapers from other countries.
netpapers.com/jornais-por-lingua/ingles
You can scroll down the country list, click on the English language version and get different understanding of national global priorities or takes on a particular event. Or you can choose a different language if you prefer.
Your discussion of your Guatemalan friends’ experience reminds me of a scholarly journal article on wealthy Brazilians, living in gated communities, surrounded by slums, using helicopters to travel safely to and from their communities. Fulbright scholar and former Brazilian President Henrique Cardoso has written about the development of a “4th world”, of countries so impoverished that they have little to lose, which might see employing violence or the threat of violence to encourage wealthier nations to provide economic support. Such hard times for so many people.
I appreciate your linkage to abortion and our failure to protect and nurture the lives of the vulnerable. May we and others find ways to support and protect our fellow humans at all stages of life, both here and abroad. Amen.

 

[dandingo]

I absolutely support progressive taxation.

The rich are FAR richer now than ever before; and don’t forget we are not just talking about individuals here, but corporations which have the same rights (and more) than real live persons.

For instance a scandal in the UK right now is that Starbucks, Amazon and Google pay less tax as a multi-billion dollar entities than any of its employees pays individually!

Starbucks has paid NO tax in the last 4 years!

I can’t get away with that, and neither can you!

First of all, I disagree that the rich are far richer than ever before. For CENTURIES, there were classes and there was no way to escape your class. The rich were wealthy beyond comprehension and the poor could barely afford to eat. Nowadays, the ‘poor’ still own cars, big screen TVs, XBOXs, jewelry, cell phones, etc. That’s not to say there aren’t true poor that need help. I can empathize with them more than anyone. But Capitalism has allowed for freedom from classes and left it up to the individual to decide for themselves their level of wealth.

Second, I’m in agreement with you that Corporations have far too many loopholes. In fact, taxes, in general, are entirely too complicate here and need to be simplified. Whoever says that Corporations are Conservative is completely false.

Third, someone making $250,000 or so is not ‘rich’. My dad used to have his own business and the business would make close to $1,000,000 each year. He would take home somewhere between $40,000-$70,000. The Left loves to portray these evil people as ‘rich’, when it’s so far from the truth.

Third, I sure hope you’re not implying that I’m rich. I’m probably one of the poorest on the forum, as I’ve had serious health problems for nearly 12 years. And no, I do not take a dime from the government.

 

[triumphguy]

1. I believe the the $250,000 tax margin is for net income, not gross. How can you be taxed on income that you didn’t make?

Someone who nets 250,000 is definitely living a different life than someone who “makes” 250,000 - say a carpenter or whatever. I’ve been there!

It’s not in the bank if it ain’t net

1. While the “poor” have more stuff than decades ago, it’s also a form of bondage - “bought” with credit. Which is a form of trap. Most people are indentured to the banks for their whole working lives and beyond. So western “poor” have stuff made by even poorer people in the third world, who ironically dream of having our lifestyle, and the only way the western poor can afford their stuff is through credit which indentures them to the banks for their whole lives. In the meantime those banks are financing the companies that employ really poor in the third world, and who sell to the poor stiffs over here. And they are financing with money that doesn’t even really exist!

The banks have got a really good gig. No wonder their Executives make millions in bonuses!

1. I believe the Pope (and Catholic social teaching) is as much talking to the multi-nationals as to individuals. To the BPs, and GEs and Walmarts of the world - and to their stock holders.
2. How can I imply you are rich I’ve never seen your net worth statement

 

[dandingo]

1. I believe the the $250,000 tax margin is for net income, not gross. How can you be taxed on income that you didn’t make?

Someone who nets 250,000 is definitely living a different life than someone who “makes” 250,000 - say a carpenter or whatever. I’ve been there!

It’s not in the bank if it ain’t net

1. While the “poor” have more stuff than decades ago, it’s also a form of bondage - “bought” with credit. Which is a form of trap. Most people are indentured to the banks for their whole working lives and beyond. So western “poor” have stuff made by even poorer people in the third world, who ironically dream of having our lifestyle, and the only way the western poor can afford their stuff is through credit which indentures them to the banks for their whole lives. In the meantime those banks are financing the companies that employ really poor in the third world, and who sell to the poor stiffs over here. And they are financing with money that doesn’t even really exist!

The banks have got a really good gig. No wonder their Executives make millions in bonuses!

1. I believe the Pope (and Catholic social teaching) is as much talking to the multi-nationals as to individuals. To the BPs, and GEs and Walmarts of the world - and to their stock holders.
2. How can I imply you are rich I’ve never seen your net worth statement

The indentured servants and serfs were forced into their lifestyle. Getting a line of credit, a credit card or a mortgage is completely up to the individual. They have 100% freedom on how they spend their money and whether they get into debt or not.

Do you think people should just be given houses and a free money?

 

[triumphguy]

The indentured servants and serfs were forced into their lifestyle. Getting a line of credit, a credit card or a mortgage is completely up to the individual. They have 100% freedom on how they spend their money and whether they get into debt or not.

Do you think people should just be given houses and a free money?

Why do you ask such outrageous questions?

Am I implying you are rich…
Do I think people should be given houses…

Ask better questions if you want a proper discussion.

 

[dandingo]

Admittedly, I misunderstood you when you stated, “I can’t get away with that, and neither can you!” when you were referring to the rich.

But here you stated that being in debt to the bank is a form of ‘bondage’ and people are ‘indentured to the banks’.

1. **While the “poor” have more stuff than decades ago, it’s also a form of bondage - “bought” with credit. Which is a form of trap. Most people are indentured to the banks for their whole working lives and beyond. **

People choose their own lifestyles and must pay the consequences, literally. No one forces anyone to put anything on credit cards. No one forces anyone to purchase a house and open a mortgage. These are all choices.

That is why I asked if people should get things for free. What alternative is there? Either man-up and pay for the things you chose to buy that you couldn’t afford or give everyone free things so that they never are in ‘bondage’ or 'indentured.

I do agree that banks must be held accountable for their mistakes. It’s absolutely sickening that they’re bailed out and not held accountable.

Why do you ask such outrageous questions?

Am I implying you are rich…
Do I think people should be given houses…

Ask better questions if you want a proper discussion.

 

[lynnvinc]

I’m not disappointed with the pope’s anti-capitalist stance, nor with his anti-totalitarian stance. And I’m so glad for his Christian stance.

He’s great!

 

[exnihilo]

1. While the “poor” have more stuff than decades ago, it’s also a form of bondage - “bought” with credit. Which is a form of trap. Most people are indentured to the banks for their whole working lives and beyond.

It is not just the poor who are in bondage to banks. It is the middle class. Most everyone still thinks the way you get rich is to take on lots of debt whether that be education, home, or credit card debt. We’ve all experienced the object lesson that this is not how you get rich and yet nothing has changed. So again I raise my question if the majority of people are personally willing to go into bondage for their wants when engaged in private economic transactions why would they do something else when exercising their vote are acting as a bureaucrat? I don’t completely disagree with your diagnosis of our problems but I completely disagree with government being the solution for the sole reason that the same people making the bad personal decisions are the voters. If we had a monarchy appealing to government as the solution might make some sense.

And they are financing with money that doesn’t even really exist!

The banks have got a really good gig. No wonder their Executives make millions in bonuses!

The banks are a partner with the government. They exist under special laws and privileges. What makes me mad is equating the current financial system of the West with capitalism. It is not. The financial system is highly regulated and subsidized. It is fascist. Since the root of the economy is the money system it is likewise unfair to blame capitalism for current economic woes when the system is built upon a money system that is fascist.