Discalced Carmelites: is Saint John of the Cross considered a founder?

[JesuXPIPassio]

I thought Saint John of the Cross is considered a founder of the order along with Saint Teresa, and when I looked up the term “John of the Cross” with “Founder,” I got a lot of results.

But the OCD website ocd.pcn.net/santi.htm only lists Saint Teresa as a founder. And come to think of it, the Discalced Carmelites are called Teresian Carmelites, but not Teresian-Johannine Carmelites or anything like that. Was that listing on the site just something that they overlooked, or is Saint John really not considered a founder?

 

[Ocarm]

I thought Saint John of the Cross is considered a founder of the order along with Saint Teresa, and when I looked up the term “John of the Cross” with “Founder,” I got a lot of results.

But the OCD website ocd.pcn.net/santi.htm only lists Saint Teresa as a founder. And come to think of it, the Discalced Carmelites are called Teresian Carmelites, but not Teresian-Johannine Carmelites or anything like that. Was that listing on the site just something that they overlooked, or is Saint John really not considered a founder?

To some extent this is a matter of opinion and a case could be made either way, but it is common for St Teresa to be seen as the primary or only architect of the reform nowadays. For a long time St John was seen as a founder of the OCD because of the part he played in introducing the reform to the friars after being commissioned to do so by St Teresa; and certainly he played a very significant role in helping her to formulate the charism of the movement through his spiritual direction of her.

But I believe that the records actually indicate that St Teresa was far more instrumental in the reform of the friars than was always acknowledged in the past, perhaps because there was a general lack of precedent for the foundation of a religious institute for men by a woman. This has happened a few times in the modern era (as with Mother Teresa of Calcutta, for instance) but happened extremely rarely if at all prior to the last century.

It could also be argued that the point is moot, inasmuch as although St Teresa led a reform, she did not intend to found a new order. Both she and St John died as members of the Order of Carmelites proper (now sometimes referred to as the Ancient Observance); and the emergence of the Discalced as a separate institute might be said to have occurred later only because of intransigence in addressing the nature of the reform.

Let me be clear that I’m not dogmatically coming down on one side or the other in either of these matters. What is most important, I think, is to acknowledge what a legacy of great writings and spiritual guidance was left to us by both of these doctors of the church.

 

[Sister_Helena]

Saint Teresa is considered the Foundress and Mother of the Teresian Carmels not St. John. Because of the plan St. Teresa had to extend the reform to men, she had taken a special interest in John because she was personally impressed by him both intellectually and spiritually. She made John stay in the monastery with St. Teresa to personally learn the life Teresa had envisioned. In effect, St. John was St. Teresa’s novice. But even though John is not a founder in the strict sense of the word, he was very instrumental and influential in the spiritual life of the Sisters. He was also St. Teresa’s spiritual director, and later on John would become the Community Confessor, Chaplain and Spiritual Director at the Incarnation Monastery when St. Teresa was sent there to become prioress. He was to become the Master of Novices in Duruelo, the first community of the Discalced Friars. Anthony Heredia was the first prior. St. John’s role in the Teresian reform would be more felt in the spiritual domain, even though later on he also held administrative roles in the Discalced Order. John and Teresa traveled together many times when Teresa was making different foundations. John became the face of the Reformed Carmel among men and paid dearly for his association with Teresa. He is probably better described as the spiritual father of the Reformed Carmel.

 

[JesuXPIPassio]

Thanks to the both of you for clearing that up for me.

I see you’re both Carmelites of the Ancient Observance. Do you ever call yourselves “Calced”? I had a teacher say that there are Discalced and Calced Carmelites; I know of the former, but I never heard of anyone call the original Carmelites by the latter.

 

[Ocarm]

I see you’re both Carmelites of the Ancient Observance. Do you ever call yourselves “Calced”? I had a teacher say that there are Discalced and Calced Carmelites; I know of the former, but I never heard of anyone call the original Carmelites by the latter.

Although I have come across the term, I haven’t personally seen it used in any official document of the Order of Carmelites (I’m happy to be corrected on that) and get the impression that it has been used largely by people outside the order to distinguish O.Carms from OCDs. Certainly it is not in common usage within the order, and as I say, I’m not aware of it being used at all except by non-members who are trying to distinguish between the two orders.

Because the reform was the group that separated from the parent order, the distinction of being ‘discalced’ is more typically made in their favour, because the parent order did not have to re-define itself simply because of a group breaking away: it was up to the new institute to define themselves, first within the O. Carm order and then secondly outside it.

Its also worth pointing out that the distinction is a moot one today, inasmuch as members of both orders might wear sandals today, or might not. I haven’t yet met a Carmelite of either tradition who goes barefoot, although they may well exist, but it isn’t a defining characteristic any more

If you’re interested in more information, Sister Helena offers a very good explanation of the differences between the two orders in the modern world in the following thread:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=333843

Blessings in Carmel,

 

[Sister_Helena]

Although I have come across the term, I haven’t personally seen it used in any official document of the Order of Carmelites (I’m happy to be corrected on that) and get the impression that it has been used largely by people outside the order to distinguish O.Carms from OCDs. Certainly it is not in common usage within the order, and as I say, I’m not aware of it being used at all except by non-members who are trying to distinguish between the two orders.

Because the reform was the group that separated from the parent order, the distinction of being ‘discalced’ is more typically made in their favour, because the parent order did not have to re-define itself simply because of a group breaking away: it was up to the new institute to define themselves, first within the O. Carm order and then secondly outside it.

Its also worth pointing out that the distinction is a moot one today, inasmuch as members of both orders might wear sandals today, or might not. I haven’t yet met a Carmelite of either tradition who goes barefoot, although they may well exist, but it isn’t a defining characteristic any more

If you’re interested in more information, Sister Helena offers a very good explanation of the differences between the two orders in the modern world in the following thread:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=333843

Blessings in Carmel,

I agree with Ocarm.
St. Teresa wore sandals because of her insistence on Poverty (exterior and interior) and Silence. The “alpargates” (a form of sandals) worn by the nuns in Europe served the purpose of maintaining silence as leather sandals often made a squeaking sound when walking in Chapel or elsewhere (probably also the expense of leather). Now any type of sandals can be worn. Both Carmels now wear sandals and shoes interchangeably. “Calced” is almost never used now. “O.Carm” is our title. Discalced is still the Teresian Carmel’s official title.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Thanks to the both of you for clearing that up for me.

I see you’re both Carmelites of the Ancient Observance. Do you ever call yourselves “Calced”? I had a teacher say that there are Discalced and Calced Carmelites; I know of the former, but I never heard of anyone call the original Carmelites by the latter.

Although I have come across the term, I haven’t personally seen it used in any official document of the Order of Carmelites (I’m happy to be corrected on that) and get the impression that it has been used largely by people outside the order to distinguish O.Carms from OCDs. Certainly it is not in common usage within the order, and as I say, I’m not aware of it being used at all except by non-members who are trying to distinguish between the two orders.

Because the reform was the group that separated from the parent order, the distinction of being ‘discalced’ is more typically made in their favour, because the parent order did not have to re-define itself simply because of a group breaking away: it was up to the new institute to define themselves, first within the O. Carm order and then secondly outside it.

Its also worth pointing out that the distinction is a moot one today, inasmuch as members of both orders might wear sandals today, or might not. I haven’t yet met a Carmelite of either tradition who goes barefoot, although they may well exist, but it isn’t a defining characteristic any more

If you’re interested in more information, Sister Helena offers a very good explanation of the differences between the two orders in the modern world in the following thread:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=333843

Blessings in Carmel,

Great reply to this question.

I do not like the term “Calced” when it is used to label us O.Carm.s as it is defining us by a reform. They are rightfully called Discaled as that is their name. We are Carmelites,

 

[JReducation]

I just wanted to add that many reforms of the ancient orders were often named after specific details rather than a particular spiritual value or virtue. The reason was that these reforms were not meant to be new orders. They were arms of the same tree.

For example: St. Francis founded the Friars Minor. Later there was a reform and one group lived in large houses called convents and the other gorup wore a long capuche. The former were called Conventuals and the latter Capuchins. There were other smaller groups that Pope Leo united into one group. Since they didn’t have a name, Pope Leo XIII called them Franciscans, after the founding father. But they are all Friars Minor.

The same thing happened with the Discalced Carmelites. They were identifiable by their sandals. It was a name that rose out of a need to distinguish them from the other Carmelites. In Spain you still hear people call them the calced and the discalced Carmelites. But Teresa did not think in those terms. In her wiritings and her spirituality she thinks Carmelite and her focus was on the ancient hermits of Carmel. I don’t think that she could care less if they were called discalced or some other name, especially because the order did not become an autonomous religious institute until after her death. They simply wore a habit with a slight variation. Just as in England the Carmelites were called the White Friars, because of their white mantles and the Dominicans were the Black Friars because of their black mantle. The Franciscans were the Grey Friars, because the English Franciscans did not wear brown, they wore grey. Many of these names had to do with idenfiable details such as clothing, housing, founders. Most religious orders were better known by the names of their founders or by their outer characteristics, rather than by their actual name. That’s how the OCDs came to be called Discalced. But notice that their name begins with Order of Carmelites. They still saw themselves as Carmelites. Those of us who are not Carmelites refer to both communities as the Carmelites or the Carmelite Family.

I did my doctoral dissertation on Teresian and Franciscan Detachment, because I have always had a special affection for the Carmelite family and their history. I shouldn’t say that too loudly, since the Franciscans and the Dominicans are really intertwined families. But I can’t help liking the Carmelites. Just don’t tell the Dominicans. LOL

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[David2010]

I happen to be looking around for reading material about Saint John of the Cross.
I did a search on the shop of catholic.com but got no hits.

If anybody here could recommend a good book (or books) about Saint John of the Cross, and where to find them, I’d be grateful.

Regards,

David

 

[JReducation]

I happen to be looking around for reading material about Saint John of the Cross.
I did a search on the shop of catholic.com but got no hits.

If anybody here could recommend a good book (or books) about Saint John of the Cross, and where to find them, I’d be grateful.

Regards,

David

Go to amazon.com and order this one. I’ve read it and it is very well done. It’s a classic.

The Collected Works of Saint John of the Cross by Saint John of the Cross, Kieran Kavanaugh, and Otilio Rodriguez

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Go to amazon.com and order this one. I’ve read it and it is very well done. It’s a classic.

The Collected Works of Saint John of the Cross by Saint John of the Cross, Kieran Kavanaugh, and Otilio Rodriguez

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Great book but it only has very limited biographical information.

I would suggest John of the Cross: Man and Mystic which is a biography that ends with what order to read his works. It is a good book except for the fact that the author tends to call us Carmelites “calced” and some of the comments about how St John choses to live his live as being in the rule which it is not.

That is sleeping on the hard ground or on a board with no mattress is not in the rule neither is turning away offers of hospitality, both are things that St John did.

The link I have is to Amazon.com, the book seems to be out of print and is very expensive there, I would suggest searching for it.

If you can not find it PM me.

 

[JReducation]

Great book but it only has very limited biographical information.

I would suggest John of the Cross: Man and Mystic which is a biography that ends with what order to read his works. It is a good book except for the fact that the author tends to call us Carmelites “calced” and some of the comments about how St John choses to live his live as being in the rule which it is not.

That is sleeping on the hard ground or on a board with no mattress is not in the rule neither is turning away offers of hospitality, both are things that St John did.

The link I have is to Amazon.com, the book seems to be out of print and is very expensive there, I would suggest searching for it.

If you can not find it PM me.

I read that book when I did my STD. I didn’t find it historically accurate. There were many details that were not exactly right. There were minor details, but if you’re working on a dissertation, they are important.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Sister_Helena]

I happen to be looking around for reading material about Saint John of the Cross.
I did a search on the shop of catholic.com but got no hits.

If anybody here could recommend a good book (or books) about Saint John of the Cross, and where to find them, I’d be grateful.

Regards,

David

I enjoyed reading “Doctor of Light and Love” by Fr. Kieran Kavanaugh, same author of The Collected Works. Published by Crossroad Publishing Company. You can find it on Amazon.com.

The hard cover “God Speaks in the Night” is an excellent and exhaustive book on St. John full of beautiful photos of his life and works. You can find it here: icspublications.org/bookstore/cross/b_cross04.html
I highly recommend it.

 

[barb_finnegan]

I enjoyed reading “Doctor of Light and Love” by Fr. Kieran Kavanaugh, same author of The Collected Works. Published by Crossroad Publishing Company. You can find it on Amazon.com.

The hard cover “God Speaks in the Night” is an excellent and exhaustive book on St. John full of beautiful photos of his life and works. You can find it here: icspublications.org/bookstore/cross/b_cross04.html
I highly recommend it.

Sister Helena-I have ‘God Speaks in the Night’ from ICS Publications. It’s got tons of photos of the places associated with St. John of the Cross. I also have ‘The Collected Works of St. John of the Cross’, too, When I was in OCDS, the latter was one of the ‘source books’.

Another book I have that mentions St. John of the Cross is ‘Teresa of Avila’, by Marcelle Auclair. She was a Frenchwoman who was born in Chile. When she was getting ready to do research on her book, she wanted to go to Spain to get authentic background in the Carmels that St. Teresa founded. She went ‘right to the top’ and asked Pope Pius XII himself for the permission, which he gave. The book mentions St. John as a ‘Father Founder’.

And BTW-on my one and only trip to Spain, I visited Segovia and prayed at the tomb of St. John of the Cross! That was quite an experience!