Discerning homosexuality & same sex marriage in the light of the gospel.

[2nd_Adam]

I have been participating on the “Problems with Protestantism” thread and the topic of homosexuality and same sex marriage came up. I did not want the topic of homosexuality to overrun that thread, so I created it here. There are 8 verses in Scripture on the subject of homosexuality. Jesus never addresses homosexuality, or explicitly discusses same sex marriage. When you examine the 8 verses in Scripture on homosexuality in context of the entire Bible, redemptive history, and the gospel of God’s grace for sinners… I believe Christians (Catholics, Orthodox, Protestants, Anglicans, etc) have a tendency to move from a Christ-centered gospel to a moral gospel and a moral agenda. Even the idea of a traditional family leaves out most of the godly families we find in the Old Testament since most do not fit in the 21st century traditonal family mold… Have at it guys, but share with kindness and respect for your brothers and sisters in Christ. It is a very relevant topic in our generation.

 

[buffalo]

I have been participating on the “Problems with Protestantism” thread and the topic of homosexuality and same sex marriage came up. I did not want the topic of homosexuality to overrun that thread, so I created it here. There are 8 verses in Scripture on the subject of homosexuality. Jesus never addresses homosexuality, or explicitly discusses same sex marriage. When you examine the 8 verses in Scripture on homosexuality in context of the entire Bible, redemptive history, and the gospel of God’s grace for sinners… I believe Christians (Catholics, Orthodox, Protestants, Anglicans, etc) have a tendency to move from a Christ-centered gospel to a moral gospel and a moral agenda. Even the idea of a traditional family leaves out most of the godly families we find in the Old Testament since most do not fit in the 21st century traditonal family mold… Have at it guys, but share with kindness and respect for your brothers and sisters in Christ. It is a very relevant topic in our generation.

No one is sure if He addressed it or not. The Bible does not record all of His actions or words.

If it was already well established as being wrong why would He need to address it?

 

[2nd_Adam]

No one is sure if He addressed it or not. The Bible does not record all of His actions or words.

If it was already well established as being wrong why would He need to address it?

Then what was Jesus Christ’s central message? I understand the Catholic concept of divine revelation which includes sacred written and oral tradition. However, I don’t think there are sayings of Jesus accepted by the Catholic Church found outside the Catholic cannon of Scripture. We have the same NT cannon. I think you point is very valid. What emphasis did the early Church Fathers put on homosexuality. And when the Apostle Paul was addressing homosexuality, in what the cultural context that he was addressing it in? I’m sure there are Catholic clergy who see homosexuality quite different than the official Magisterium position.

 

[Dokimas]

I posted this in responding to your post on another thread. I hope its okay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2nd Adam
Thanks for sharing your spiritual journey. I’m glad you found a home with the Catholic Church. I think Catholics and Protestants have sinned against homosexuals as a group of sinners. We are all sinners who have fallen short of the glory of God. I believe a person’s view on homosexuality and same sex marriage has nothing to do with the gospel of God. Jesus never addressed homosexuality or same sex mairrage. And there are only about 8 verses in Scripture dealing with the subject, and when those verses are taken in context, Catholics and Protestants make the issue much much greater than the Scriptures. This is what I call a Christless Christainity when a moral gospel, or moral agenda becomes primary… over and above the gospel of God. Evangelicals and right wing conservatism is more passionate about the topic of abortion and homosexuality than the good news of God about His Son for sinners. It is a moral gospel as compare to the true gospel. I think the tradition family value agenda is off the mark too. When you think about it, the great heroes of the faith in the Old Testament do not fit into the mold of the traditional family as defined by Catholics, Protestants, and Mormons.
You say that Jesus didn’t address homosexuality or same sex marriage and I guess that’s correct on one level. However, Jesus did seem to define marriage as follows:

Matthew 19:
4 And He answered and said to them, "Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’
5 "and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’?
6 “So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.”

The implication seems quite clear.​

You are correct that we should be keying in on the True Gospel. Part of the True Gospel is that we can be free from sin by the Blood of Jesus the Messiah. How can we be free from something we don’t see as sin? When Jesus spoke to the woman caught in adultery, He told her that He did not condemn her and then He said, ‘Go and sin no more.’​

Can anyone argue from the Bible that It does not teach that sex outside the marriage between one man and one woman is sin?​

Imputed righteousness and imputed holiness is part of the True Gospel. Jesus changes us. Unfortunately I don’t think that work will be completed until Heaven. Boy, would I like to be totally free from any sinful tendancies.

 

[FCEGM]

I have been participating on the “Problems with Protestantism” thread and the topic of homosexuality and same sex marriage came up. I did not want the topic of homosexuality to overrun that thread, so I created it here. There are 8 verses in Scripture on the subject of homosexuality. Jesus never addresses homosexuality, or explicitly discusses same sex marriage. When you examine the 8 verses in Scripture on homosexuality in context of the entire Bible, redemptive history, and the gospel of God’s grace for sinners… I believe Christians (Catholics, Orthodox, Protestants, Anglicans, etc) have a tendency to move from a Christ-centered gospel to a moral gospel and a moral agenda. Even the idea of a traditional family leaves out most of the godly families we find in the Old Testament since most do not fit in the 21st century traditonal family mold… Have at it guys, but share with kindness and respect for your brothers and sisters in Christ. It is a very relevant topic in our generation.

catholic.com/library/Homosexuality.asp

Why would you expect Jesus to address something that was such a given in His time and in His culture? If He’d come up against a rampant problem in this area, He would have - and He does in our age through His Church.

 

[2nd_Adam]

I posted this in responding to your post on another thread. I hope its okay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2nd Adam
Thanks for sharing your spiritual journey. I’m glad you found a home with the Catholic Church. I think Catholics and Protestants have sinned against homosexuals as a group of sinners. We are all sinners who have fallen short of the glory of God. I believe a person’s view on homosexuality and same sex marriage has nothing to do with the gospel of God. Jesus never addressed homosexuality or same sex mairrage. And there are only about 8 verses in Scripture dealing with the subject, and when those verses are taken in context, Catholics and Protestants make the issue much much greater than the Scriptures. This is what I call a Christless Christainity when a moral gospel, or moral agenda becomes primary… over and above the gospel of God. Evangelicals and right wing conservatism is more passionate about the topic of abortion and homosexuality than the good news of God about His Son for sinners. It is a moral gospel as compare to the true gospel. I think the tradition family value agenda is off the mark too. When you think about it, the great heroes of the faith in the Old Testament do not fit into the mold of the traditional family as defined by Catholics, Protestants, and Mormons.
You say that Jesus didn’t address homosexuality or same sex marriage and I guess that’s correct on one level. However, Jesus did seem to define marriage as follows:

Matthew 19:
4 And He answered and said to them, "Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’
5 "and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’?
6 “So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.”

The implication seems quite clear.​

You are correct that we should be keying in on the True Gospel. Part of the True Gospel is that we can be free from sin by the Blood of Jesus the Messiah. How can we be free from something we don’t see as sin? When Jesus spoke to the woman caught in adultery, He told her that He did not condemn her and then He said, ‘Go and sin no more.’​

Can anyone argue from the Bible that It does not teach that sex outside the marriage between one man and one woman is sin?​

Imputed righteousness and imputed holiness is part of the True Gospel. Jesus changes us. Unfortunately I don’t think that work will be completed until Heaven. Boy, would I like to be totally free from any sinful tendancies.

Since we are both Protestants, correct… we should look at the entire context of Scriptures to dscern this issue, right? Do you agree that we should come to entire Scirptures in the lenses of the gospel? We have to look at verses in the proper context. The proper context is the entire Bible with Christ and Him crucified as being central… for the Bible is God’s story of redemptive history of sinners to the praise of His glorious grace.

 

[2nd_Adam]

catholic.com/library/Homosexuality.asp

Why would you expect Jesus to address something that was such a given in His time and in His culture? If He’d come up against a rampant problem in this area, He would have - and He does in our age through His Church.

We can look at this through Protestant discernment (entire Bible), or through Catholic discernment (Bible + other sources). Let’s be patient with each other because there is much we need to go through. How about posting the Catholic Catechism on the subject so the non-Catholics can know the official Catholic position on homosexuality.

 

[Dokimas]

Since we are both Protestants, correct… we should look at the entire context of Scriptures to dscern this issue, right? Do you agree that we should come to entire Scirptures in the lenses of the gospel? We have to look at verses in the proper context. The proper context is the entire Bible with Christ and Him crucified as being central… for the Bible is God’s story of redemptive history of sinners to the praise of His glorious grace.

I am a non-Catholic who believes that Jesus is God, the Messiah, Whose Blood was shed for my sins and Who was raised from the dead having power over sin, death and the devil.​

At first glance, I’d agree with your statements. I’m not sure how that answers my post.​

I believe my post answers you as I’ve looked at what Jesus did say about marriage and what He said to a sinner about sinning. Part of the Good News is that Jesus doesn’t want us to stay in our sins, but He wants to deliever us from them: wasn’t it Paul who spoke of being sancified in the past, is being sanctified now and will be sanctified?

 

[querying]

The “Jesus didn’t say anything about x, y, z” argument is sooooo worn out already.

Jesus didn’t warn against paedophilia or incest, although these abominations are condemned by St Paul and others throughout scripture. I take it Jesus must really approve of the aforesaid acts as he remained silent on condemning them.

Just deal with the truth in scripture: Homosexual acts are an abomination. Period. Is it a difficult cross to carry? Yes. But acting on it will bar one from entry into heaven.

Let’s stop obfuscating.

 

[2nd_Adam]

I am a non-Catholic who believes that Jesus is God, the Messiah, Whose Blood was shed for my sins and Who was raised from the dead having power over sin, death and the devil.​

At first glance, I’d agree with your statements. I’m not sure how that answers my post.​

I believe my post answers you as I’ve looked at what Jesus did say about marriage and what He said to a sinner about sinning. Part of the Good News is that Jesus doesn’t want us to stay in our sins, but He wants to deliever us from them: wasn’t it Paul who spoke of being sancified in the past, is being sanctified now and will be sanctified?

Let’s stay on the thread topic. Since same sex marriage is such a relevant topic in our generation, and as Protestants…we go to the entire Scriptures to discern truth… let’s do that. I’m not saying the Bible prohibits or allows same sex marriage, but let’s go to the Scriptures together first. I’m saying up front that the issue of same sex marriage is not as easy to discern as conservative Christian make it, nor as easy as liberal Christians make it. There are 8 verses in the Scriptures dealing with homosexuality. Do you want to walk us through them? I think modern day Protestants have a tendency to take verses out of context from the rest of the Scriptures for agenda’s that are more political or moral in implications. God is neither a Republican or a Democrat and He does not have a conservative or liberal agenda.

 

[jjdrury81]

I don’t think that there is any question that the Bible teaches us that sex outside of marriage and homosexuality is a sin.

And I accept that teaching.

However, I still support the rights of homosexuals to engage in civil life. And this includes civil marriage. I say this knowing that civil marriage has very little to do with the covenant Marriage that my wife and I share.

 

[TheQuestioner]

Fact: Sex outside of marriage is Fornication
Fact: Homosexuals cannot get married in the eyes of God
Therefore: Homosexuals will always be committing Fornication, which God hates

The first and second facts we can gather from Scripture. Therefore if we use reason and read the whole of Scripture in light of itself we see that homosexuality nor homosexual marriage is something detestable to God. Period.

Sex outside of marriage is also detestable to God too, even if you are straight. Many people present a double standard by cheering on straight sex while booing gay sex. Just because they do it does not mean it is the Christian position, nor does it mean any learned Christian would do the same.

 

[2nd_Adam]

I don’t think that there is any question that the Bible teaches us that sex outside of marriage and homosexuality is a sin.

And I accept that teaching.

However, I still support the rights of homosexuals to engage in civil life. And this includes civil marriage. I say this knowing that civil marriage has very little to do with the covenant Marriage that my wife and I share.

That’s great that you have come to that conclusion. How about walking us through the Scriptures to support your conclusion? Does God honor same sex marriage? I’m open to your biblical arguments on the topic. When I was challenged by my conservative position prohibiting same sex marriage, I found my biblical proofs to be unsound when taken the 8 verses in context. As a Protestant Christian… I try not to go beyond what is written. Did you know the church discriminated sinful against racial minorities and women by twisting the scriptures. Some churches have used the Scriptures to justify American slavery… but maybe that’s more of a Protestant history.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Fact: Sex outside of marriage is Fornication
Fact: Homosexuals cannot get married in the eyes of God
Therefore: Homosexuals will always be committing Fornication, which God hates

The first and second facts we can gather from Scripture. Therefore if we use reason and read the whole of Scripture in light of itself we see that homosexuality nor homosexual marriage is something detestable to God. Period.

Sex outside of marriage is also detestable to God too, even if you are straight. Many people present a double standard by cheering on straight sex while booing gay sex. Just because they do it does not mean it is the Christian position, nor does it mean any learned Christian would do the same.

How many Catholics and Protestants have commited adultery according to Jesus?

“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell. - Jesus

 

[buffalo]

How many Catholics and Protestants have commited adultery according to Jesus?

“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell. - Jesus

You are not making an argument that because Catholics fail the message the message is wrong are you?

 

[Dokimas]

Let’s stay on the thread topic. Since same sex marriage is such a relevant topic in our generation, and as Protestants…we go to the entire Scriptures to discern truth… let’s do that. I’m not saying the Bible prohibits or allows same sex marriage, but let’s go to the Scriptures together first. I’m saying up front that the issue of same sex marriage is not as easy to discern as conservative Christian make it, nor as easy as liberal Christians make it. There are 8 verses in the Scriptures dealing with homosexuality. Do you want to walk us through them? I think modern day Protestants have a tendency to take verses out of context from the rest of the Scriptures for agenda’s that are more political or moral in implications. God is neither a Republican or a Democrat and He does not have a conservative or liberal agenda.

Sure, let’s stay on topic. Again I’m not sure you’re telling me this???​

I’ll let you go through the 8 Scriptures; you’ve mentioned this several times.​

They I’d like you to help us discern what the Bible says about homosexuality in the context of the whole of Scripture.​

As for Jesus, He spoke of (sexulal) relationships many times. I’ve quoted one there He seemed to define marriage as being between a man and a woman. Could you comment please.​

I’m not sure why you’re telling me God is not …??? or that Scripture has no political implications. I’d say the Bible has moral implication, without a doubt. However, we must not put the ‘cart before the horse’.

 

[FCEGM]

That’s great that you have come to that conclusion. How about walking us through the Scriptures to support your conclusion? Does God honor same sex marriage? I’m open to your biblical arguments on the topic. When I was challenged by my conservative position prohibiting same sex marriage, I found my biblical proofs to be unsound when taken the 8 verses in context. As a Protestant Christian… I try not to go beyond what is written. Did you know the church discriminated sinful against racial minorities and women by twisting the scriptures. Some churches have used the Scriptures to justify American slavery… but maybe that’s more of a Protestant history.

The context of those 8 verses is Genesis 1:

4 Then God said: “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. Let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, and the cattle, and over all the wild animals and all the creatures that crawl on the ground.” 27 God created man in his image; in the divine image he created him; male and female he created them. 28 God blessed them, saying: "Be fertile and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it.

and Genesis 2:

The LORD God said: “It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a suitable partner for him.” 19 So the LORD God formed out of the ground various wild animals and various birds of the air, and he brought them to the man to see what he would call them; whatever the man called each of them would be its name. 20 The man gave names to all the cattle, all the birds of the air, and all the wild animals; but none proved to be the suitable partner for the man. 21 So the LORD God cast a deep sleep on the man, and while he was asleep, he took out one of his ribs and closed up its place with flesh. 22 The LORD God then built up into a woman the rib that he had taken from the man. When he brought her to the man, 23 5 the man said: “This one, at last, is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; This one shall be called ‘woman,’ for out of ‘her man’ this one has been taken.” 24 6 That is why a man leaves his father and mother and clings to his wife, and the two of them become one body. 25 The man and his wife were both naked, yet they felt no shame.

One need not look further.

 

[2nd_Adam]

You are not making an argument that because Catholics fail the message the message is wrong are you?

If I understand what you are saying, the answer is no. We as Christians (Orthodox, Protestant, Catholics, Anglican, etc) all fall short of the glory of God daily, so Christians are really sinners in process.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Sure, let’s stay on topic. Again I’m not sure you’re telling me this???​

I’ll let you go through the 8 Scriptures; you’ve mentioned this several times.​

They I’d like you to help us discern what the Bible says about homosexuality in the context of the whole of Scripture.​

As for Jesus, He spoke of (sexulal) relationships many times. I’ve quoted one there He seemed to define marriage as being between a man and a woman. Could you comment please.​

I’m not sure why you’re telling me God is not …??? or that Scripture has no political implications. I’d say the Bible has moral implication, without a doubt. However, we must not put the ‘cart before the horse’.

Okay, I will post a reference to all of the Scriptures in reference to homosexuality. It would be interesting to note that there is no word in biblical Greek or Hebrew that is equivanlent to the English word homosexual. I believe the world was coined about 100 years ago and first appeared in the Bible in the 1946 Revised Standard Version according to a book that I have read. Any Catholic scholar out there willing to verify what I wrote above?

 

[Mark77]

The final verse of John’s Gospel tells us; “But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.” (Jn 21:25)

Coming on a Catholic website and trying to use the ‘Sola Scriptura’ argument is like asking a fireman to only read the Bible to find out how to put out a fire.

Your Scripture alone argument is not supported by Sacred Scripture itself , Jesus never said, ‘If it isn’t in Sacred Scripture, it isn’t my teaching.’, or “Peter, write this down.”

Jesus knew that many things would come up over time, like embryonic stem cell research… (it isn’t in the Bible!), that the people of His day could not comprehend, so what did He do? He gave us a Pope, Peter and His Apostles and their successors as the leaders of His Catholic Church to answer these tough questions that aren’t explicitly answered in Sacred Scripture.

Without someone who can answer these questions, we are all adrift without a rudder (up a creek without a ‘poodle’ as my mother in law says, she’s from Montreal!), hoping the Holy Spirit will enlighten us!

I have participated in many Bible studies with my Protestant brothers who are all on fire and totally in love with Jesus Christ! When questions come up like this or like abortion or like birth control, we ended up with many conflicting opinions, even though everyone there is truly a follower of Jesus and prays for the Inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

So how can this be? If i love Jesus and you love Jesus and we are both “inspired by the Holy Spirit” but we come up with answers that totally disagree on a subject, who is correct?

Jesus teaches us through His One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church;

"Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, tradition has always declared that “homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.” They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.(CCC 2357)

The Church also teaches us that we are to love everyone, to love the sinner and hate the sin, because we are all sinners.

If i want to cheat on my wife, the Church teaches us that i have sinned and must be repentant and ask for forgiveness from God. If i am single, either homosexual or heterosexual, i must refrain from sexual relations!

It is impossible to have a “civil marriage” between 2 men or 2 women. It is impossible! Marriage is clearly defined in Sacred Scripture and has always been, throughout the history of the human race, between ONE MAN AND ONE WOMAN, period!

If a state determines that civil unions are permitted between same sex couples, or 3 men and 3 women or 1 man and his car…then great. That is a civil determination, but it can never be a “Marriage” which is a covenant between a man and a woman before God to create children and to ensure the propagation of the human race through the family unit.

Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, Ora Pro Nobis Peccatoribus!

mark