Discerning SSPX affiliation

[mitch2007]

Dear Forum members,

I am presently in a state of confusion and would appreciate any comments or suggestions.

I live in a very Protestant part (2% Catholic) of a majority Protestant country (7% Catholic): there are several Catholic churches in my city, but no TLM’s, except for the local SSPX chapel, which has Mass twice per month. I started going there, age 19, in 1997, and fell in love with the TLM, especially compared with the Masses I had known growing up, which were standard, English Novus Ordo facing the people, EMHC’s, later also altar girls, fare. I also came to accept the arguments of the SSPX for its legitimacy, its state of necessity arguments, etc. There I met my wife-to-be, who comes from a large, staunch SSPX family, who have been trads since she was 7 years old.

Of late, I have grown concerned about my attending the SSPX, and some of the tendencies and characteristics of many SSPX supporters, and especially my missing Mass on 2-3 Sundays per month. I felt I was in a little sect, cut off from the rest of the Church, surrounded by people who worshipped the SSPX and saw nothing wrong. (NB: I HOPE I AM NOT BEING OFFENSIVE OR BREAKING FORUM RULES) So, this is my present position:

1. Relying on what some local Diocesan priests have said, as well as what has emanated from the Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei, I attend the SSPX’s Masses, and I believe I am fulfilling my Sunday obligation in doing so.
2. However, I have started attending NO Masses on the “in between” Sundays - this deeply upsets and disturbs my wife, who refuses to go, saying it will only confuse and scandalise her. She says this is likely to divide our family - we have 2 kids under 5, and 3rd on the way - and confuse our children. I tend to agree with her. I don’t think it is ideal for children to grow up attending on a regular basis two totally different Masses, where things are allowed which we don’t want to encourage (altar girls, CITH, etc) - now and then, sure, but not regularly.
3. I just finished reading Patrick Madrid/Peter Vere’s book “More Catholic Than the Pope” - it’s arguments, though, seem very legalistic and do not seem to take into account the terrible extent of the crisis in the Church, the mass apostasy, the indifference, and the fact that many people - yours truly included - simply do not have access to the fabled “reverent Novus Ordo”, let along a TLM said in good standing with the diocese. If they want dignified Catholic worship, without EMHC’s, communion in the hand, altar girls, etc, the SSPX is it. Also, the book seems dated, as:

a) It does not take into account the fact that the PCED has said that, in the strict sense, one can fulfil ones Sunday obligation at an SSPX Mass;

b) Statements by Cardinal Hoyos that the SSPX is not a fully-fledged schism;

c) Pope Benedict’s declaration that the TLM was never abolished - which is what trads have been arguing for close to 40 years.

In a nutshell:

a) I believe it is okay to attend the SSPX - is this correct?
b) I have deep problems with the mentality of a lot of trads, and the SSPX - more detail will be given if required - and do not want to be in a sect, but I feel I have no option.

Oh yes - it is POSSIBLE - just POSSIBLE that a TLM will become available in a local parish eventually (long story there) - that will be wonderful - but I am not holding my breath, as there isn’t the “culture” of asking for the TLM, interest in it, or a definite orthodox/liberal divide in Catholicism here, as there is in the US. We’ve never had Indult Masses, or even Latin NO Masses, almost everyone is very comfortable in the parishes thank you very much, and the TLM will be utterly foreign. Still, one lives in hope!

Any thoughts?

God bless
Mitch

 

[HOPEFUL_IN_UK]

Mitch, I can relate to a lot of what you’re saying. I have found myself tempted to attend an SSPX chapel.

I think there are some questions you need to think about, and pray about…

• Do you believe that the Eucharist consecrated at the Novus Ordo is valid?
• Do you think that the Catholic Church has the right to require you to attend Mass every Sunday?
• If the answers to the above are “yes” - do you think that you are justified in staying home two Sundays a month when you can make it to a NO Mass?

You wife was raised in the SSPX culture. I don’t know where her mind is regarding the questions, above, but I think maybe she needs to think about these things, too. It may be that her answers will be different than yours. In which case, well… you’ll be like many other couples who find themselves with differing religions. I mean, you’ll both be Christians. I think one could say you’ll both be Catholics. But, you’ll have more in common with a couple made up of one Baptist and one Anglican than with a couple made up of two Catholics. Do you understand what I’m trying to say? Anyway, that may be something you’ll have to deal with, at some point.

As for your own feelings regarding the NO Mass:
I understand that irreverent Novus Ordo masses are a pain. They are for me, too (although I have a greater tolerance for altar girls and such than you do.) I’ve been to masses that annoy me a lot. When possible, I don’t go back. But, I know that I’ve fulfilled my obligation and received the Holy Sacrament.

If you go to a Mass that annoys you, try to think of things that will make it spiritually beneficial. For example, think about the Catholics in China or the Middle East who are persecuted. There are Catholics in the world who can’t receive the Sacraments under any rite. Offer up your annoyances for them. Or, you could offer up your annoyances for the priest or bishops where you live - not in an arrogant way of “for reparations for their sins” but in order to foster a sense of gratitude that these men are willing to devote their lives to serving the faithful. Offer up the annoyances for the shut-ins or those who, for whatever reason, aren’t able to make it to a Mass at all.

 

[GerardP]

Of late, I have grown concerned about my attending the SSPX, and some of the tendencies and characteristics of many SSPX supporters, and especially my missing Mass on 2-3 Sundays per month. I felt I was in a little sect, cut off from the rest of the Church, surrounded by people who worshipped the SSPX and saw nothing wrong.

That’s part of the problem of the crisis, on one hand we are back in the catacombs, on the other hand you’ll find strange characters at whatever Church you go to Novus Ordo or TLM.

1. Relying on what some local Diocesan priests have said, as well as what has emanated from the Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei, I attend the SSPX’s Masses, and I believe I am fulfilling my Sunday obligation in doing so.

Correct.

1. However, I have started attending NO Masses on the “in between” Sundays - this deeply upsets and disturbs my wife, who refuses to go, saying it will only confuse and scandalise her.

That position is common and valid for the protection of someone’s faith.

She says this is likely to divide our family - we have 2 kids under 5, and 3rd on the way - and confuse our children.

It doesn’t have to. Children under six are not under the Sunday obligation.

I tend to agree with her. I don’t think it is ideal for children to grow up attending on a regular basis two totally different Masses, where things are allowed which we don’t want to encourage (altar girls, CITH, etc) - now and then, sure, but not regularly.

You sound like you’re acting prudently.

1. I just finished reading Patrick Madrid/Peter Vere’s book “More Catholic Than the Pope” - it’s arguments, though, seem very legalistic and do not seem to take into account the terrible extent of the crisis in the Church, the mass apostasy, the indifference, and the fact that many people - yours truly included - simply do not have access to the fabled “reverent Novus Ordo”, let along a TLM said in good standing with the diocese. If they want dignified Catholic worship, without EMHC’s, communion in the hand, altar girls, etc, the SSPX is it.

Fr. Stephen Somerville wrote a review of the book that was devastating. And Micheal Davies “Liturgical Time Bombs in Vatican II” is an unintended rebuttal to the book.

Also, the book seems dated, as:

a) It does not take into account the fact that the PCED has said that, in the strict sense, one can fulfil ones Sunday obligation at an SSPX Mass;

b) Statements by Cardinal Hoyos that the SSPX is not a fully-fledged schism;

c) Pope Benedict’s declaration that the TLM was never abolished - which is what trads have been arguing for close to 40 years.

Despite it’s purported aims. The book was not designed to “bring back faithful from the SSPX.” It was designed to scare Catholics from even investigating honestly the claims of the SSPX.

In a nutshell:

a) I believe it is okay to attend the SSPX - is this correct?

Yep.

b) I have deep problems with the mentality of a lot of trads, and the SSPX - more detail will be given if required - and do not want to be in a sect, but I feel I have no option.

There are a wide variety of opinions with people who attend the SSPX. Some will go to the Novus Ordo in a pinch like you and others are all the way over into sedevacantism. Everyone is there for the Mass. Focus on that and not the personalities of the people. They come and go, the Mass is eternal.

Oh yes - it is POSSIBLE - just POSSIBLE that a TLM will become available in a local parish eventually (long story there) - that will be wonderful - but I am not holding my breath, as there isn’t the “culture” of asking for the TLM, interest in it, or a definite orthodox/liberal divide in Catholicism here, as there is in the US.

Try and find the most traditionally oriented priests in your diocese
some may be interested or even pursuing the old forms of the Mass and Sacraments. Help them out if possible. People don’t realize that the SSPX and local priests sometimes help each other out. There are diocesan TLMs being said that in my area that the SSPX was instrumental in helping the priests learn the mass, obtain materials etc.

We’ve never had Indult Masses, or even Latin NO Masses, almost everyone is very comfortable in the parishes thank you very much, and the TLM will be utterly foreign. Still, one lives in hope!

Any thoughts?

You may have to start small and slowly make people aware of the Crisis in the Church. Maybe some CDs or tapes of interviews with good traditionalists who explain things clearly. My faves are: Fr. Malachi Martin, Micheal Davies, Bishop Williamson, Charles Coulombe and Williams Biersach.

Newspapers you can get and clip articles from the Remnant or the Wanderer or Catholic Voice or Catholic Family News etc.

And quotes of the Popes over the last 150 years or so are also very important.

Also, go and pray in those local Churches for restoration.

Hope that helps.

 

[latinmasslover]

Well, I’d like to say that I dislike the NO with a passion; however, I attend it on Sunday/Holy Days when the TLM is not offered, and some weekdays. The more I go, even when trying to keep an open mind, the more disgusted I become with the New Rite. I would not take my children (should God choose to bless me with them someday), except on occasion. I would do that (maybe) simply to show what a treasure the Old Rite is, and to never take it for granted.

 

[NicPais83]

SSPX is a weird situation, since they don’t quite fit the definition of schism, especially since they are loyal to the Pope. However, I think that the issue is if the Vatican allows these Masses to fulfill your Sunday obligation. Remember that the Novus Ordo is still a “work-in-progress” as Benedict says that Vatican II is still in the process of fully being implemented. As such, a voice such as your family’s could help to demand more conformity with Rome in celebration of the Novus Ordo.

I think that the bottom line is that you have to keep in mind that loyalty to the Roman Pontiff requires you to at least accept the validity of the Novus Ordo. SSPX will tell you that that is not an option, but that’s where they are in disagreement with Rome. Remember also that the argument is NOT over the validity of the Tridentine Mass, but the validity of the Masses celebrated by the SSPX. The SSPX may be playing a part in God’s plan, but we cannot assume that we’re more knowledgeable about things than the Magesterium. As the next generation of Catholics, it is our responsibility to demand the reverence in the Mass and unity with the Roman Pontiff that has sustained us for 2000 years.

In terms of the Novus Ordo, I suggest also researching it some. Read the General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM), which the Holy Father suggests that all Catholics familiarize themselves with. Also, read the Ordo Missae for the Novus Ordo in Latin, or with a faithful English translation, akin to the new Roman Missal to be released soon. Compare it to the Ordo Missae for the Tridentine Mass, keeping in mind arguments made during Trent and Vatican II for revising the Ordo, as Trent first attempted a general reform. Look at particularly changes made in the Prayers at the Foot of the Altar, the Last Gospel, and the Offertory, and research why these were changed in Vatican II, the reasons for which go back to the Council of Trent.

 

[SemperFidelis]

• Do you believe that the Eucharist consecrated at the Novus Ordo is valid?
• Do you think that the Catholic Church has the right to require you to attend Mass every Sunday?

Well, considering the SSPX answers yes to both questions above and still refuses to have NO Masses, then I think the OP of course should answer yes (only a sede would answer no). Just because it’s valid doesn’t mean it’s “good.”

• If the answers to the above are “yes” - do you think that you are justified in staying home two Sundays a month when you can make it to a NO Mass?

Well, that’s up to the OP. I myself would go to the NO, but I can understand an argument either way.

 

[SemperFidelis]

a) I believe it is okay to attend the SSPX - is this correct?

Correct.

b) I have deep problems with the mentality of a lot of trads, and the SSPX - more detail will be given if required - and do not want to be in a sect, but I feel I have no option.

Unfortunately, there will be people like that in all walks of life, including “all walks” of Catholicism, liberal and trad alike. This kind of behavior isn’t exclusive to traditional Catholics. If there’s one thing I’ve noticed about traditional Catholics, it’s that as a whole, they tend to take their Catholicism much more seriously. At times this can lead to a scrupulous behavior.

Oh yes - it is POSSIBLE - just POSSIBLE that a TLM will become available in a local parish eventually

If this did happen, I would attend the SSPX Chapel with your family on the Sundays that they have Mass, and the “indult” Mass on all other Sundays. That’s just me though.

 

[onenow1]

Hi,All
I was raised with the latin mass and translation missal.
Now that being said. The NO, is right on target, reasoning is this, if indeed the priest represents Christ, in Persona Christi,] its a beautiful picture of Christ talking to the communion of Saints face to face.Further more , I don’t think Christ turned his back to the Apostles on the Last Supper.

As far as holding hands thiis is a representation of oneness. Rememer Jesus last prayer that they may be one.

Taking away from the body of Christ, is not the solution, a bone that is broken knits back, one that is taken out cannot re-knit unless put back in place.

SSXP= Flock being mislead.

Peace, OneNow1

PS. the Holy Catholic Church Continues doing what Christ did take me or leave me.

 

[SemperFidelis]

SSXP= Flock being mislead.

You can objectively look at the situation in the Church at large and then look at the history of the SSPX and easily see who has been mislead for the last 40 years.

 

[latinmasslover]

Hi,All
I was raised with the latin mass and translation missal.
Now that being said. The NO, is right on target, reasoning is this, if indeed the priest represents Christ, in Persona Christi,] its a beautiful picture of Christ talking to the communion of Saints face to face.Further more , I don’t think Christ turned his back to the Apostles on the Last Supper.

So, the Church had it wrong all those years? If it were a supper, then yes, it is appropriate for the priest to face the people. If it’s a Sacrifice (which the Mass is) then the priest, offering the Sacrifice, should not have his back to God, don’t you think?
At the Last Supper, Jesus was with the Apostles, the bishops. How many bishops do you see sitting/standing in the pews (okay, maybe kneeling) while the priest offers Mass?

As far as holding hands thiis is a representation of oneness. Rememer Jesus last prayer that they may be one.

One in worship, one in doctrine, one in TRUTH, not a physical connect-the-people.

SSXP= Flock being mislead.

Misled how exactly? For not accepting a false teaching on the papacy? For not making the every word of the pope Gospel truth? For obeying the Church of all ages vs. nonCatholic interpretation of what the Church should be? What exactly?

 

[Nick]

This should answer your questions.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=85351

 

[NicPais83]

So, the Church had it wrong all those years? If it were a supper, then yes, it is appropriate for the priest to face the people. If it’s a Sacrifice (which the Mass is) then the priest, offering the Sacrifice, should not have his back to God, don’t you think?
At the Last Supper, Jesus was with the Apostles, the bishops. How many bishops do you see sitting/standing in the pews (okay, maybe kneeling) while the priest offers Mass?

Misled how exactly? For not accepting a false teaching on the papacy? For not making the every word of the pope Gospel truth? For obeying the Church of all ages vs. nonCatholic interpretation of what the Church should be? What exactly?

The Mass is both a sacrifice and a meal. Honestly, I have never seen a bishop sit in the pews while a priest offers Mass…rather I usually see the bishop leading the consecration. That’s pretty well stated in the Our Father…I mean the Pater Noster. But yes, the SSPX is a misled group, but I hope and pray for our rift to be healed. Where they are misled is that they do not fully accept the authority of the Magesterium. If Jesus has pledged to be with His Church until the end of the ages, and this is part of our belief, then to obey the Church of all ages is to obey the Supreme Pontiff of the Universal Church, fully. If the First Vatican Council declared that the Pope is infallible in matters of faith and morals, and if we believe that an Ecumenical Council of the Church is guided by the Holy Spirt to also be infallible, then it is wrong and misguided to believe that one particular Council stands out as not being subject to the same powers that Christ pledged to His Church, i.e. to bind and loose. The matters at hand here are not simply which version of the Church one likes or doesn’t like, but whether or not you believe that the Church, at all times, speaks on behalf of Christ on Earth. If the Second Vatican Council is heretical or modernistic, or non-Catholic, then everyone, including SSPX is following a false religion, since that would mean that Christ is not with His bride and therefore we are all misguided.

 

[bear06]

I’m shocked (or guess I’m more shocked to not be shocked) at some of the responses. Skip the Sunday obligation because one can’t attend an SSPX chapel (or even a EF)? Hellllllllooooooo? Who’s the one person that will always try and keep us away from the Real Presence? Quibble all you want to about the imperfections of this Mass or that but to say that ever receiving Our Lord (when properly disposed of course) when obligated to do so is anything but good is bad, bad, bad. Our Lord dined with sinners and was crucified but we can’t attend a Mass that’s offensive to us? Give me a break. I’m no saying we should run to the nearest abuse laden Mass for the heck of it. I am saying if we can’t find the Mass we feel is pleasing to God or we feel aids in our spiritual welfare then we should find the next best one down the line as long as it is valid. If God is there, why wouldn’t we be obliged to be there if for no other reason to be the one person showing reverence. I find it funny that we Novus Ordo types are the ones who are supposed to not understand the sacrifice of the Mass.

 

[SenorSalsa]

So, the Church had it wrong all those years? If it were a supper, then yes, it is appropriate for the priest to face the people. If it’s a Sacrifice (which the Mass is) then the priest, offering the Sacrifice, should not have his back to God, don’t you think?

Who is to say where God is in a Church?

 

[GerardP]

I’m shocked (or guess I’m more shocked to not be shocked) at some of the responses. Skip the Sunday obligation because one can’t attend an SSPX chapel (or even a EF)? Hellllllllooooooo?

If the liturgy as performed locally presents a danger to the faith of the individual, that may be a valid reason for not attending. Participating in Sacrilege could be the reality.

Who’s the one person that will always try and keep us away from the Real Presence?

The pastor or bishop that works against providing the TLM.

Quibble all you want to about the imperfections of this Mass or that but to say that ever receiving Our Lord (when properly disposed of course) when obligated to do so is anything but good is bad, bad, bad.

The Liturgy can ruin the disposition of the person who is attending.

Our Lord dined with sinners and was crucified but we can’t attend a Mass that’s offensive to us? Give me a break.

What had the money changers done to the Temple?

I’m no saying we should run to the nearest abuse laden Mass for the heck of it. I am saying if we can’t find the Mass we feel is pleasing to God or we feel aids in our spiritual welfare then we should find the next best one down the line as long as it is valid.

SSPX? How about Orthodox? Of the two which would be better?

If God is there, why wouldn’t we be obliged to be there if for no other reason to be the one person showing reverence. I find it funny that we Novus Ordo types are the ones who are supposed to not understand the sacrifice of the Mass.

Don’t think those strategies haven’t been tried? And that there are counter strategies? I would wager that virtually no one goes from the Novus Ordo to the SSPX without having first made some efforts to deal with their parish or a local parish. If the priest is on your side, you may have a chance of making a difference, but then the bishop will come in an squash things. And if the bishop is okay, the next bishop will dismantle everything he’s done if it’s the least traditional.

My own experience has shown me priests who are virtually held captive by their superiors for their orthodoxy, they are stone-walled at every opportunity to implement the Pope’s wishes even a little. Sometimes older priests help them out but it’s few and far between.

 

[stmaria]

Who is to say where God is in a Church?

God is** physically present**, body and blood in the Tabernacle of a Catholic Church.

 

[bear06]

If the liturgy as performed locally presents a danger to the faith of the individual, that may be a valid reason for not attending. Participating in Sacrilege could be the reality.

How can someone with an informed conscience have to worry? Are we not receiving graces from the Sacrament? Honestly, it’s like we’ve forgotten that God is there at all. People witnessed the crucifixion which was the ultimate sacrilege. HIs most beloved were right there.

The pastor or bishop that works against providing the TLM.

 

[rpp]

All SSPX priests are suspended. This means that they cannot witness marriages, celebrate Mass, hear Confession, etc. They can baptize, however (but then, so can I).

Mases celebrated by SSPX priests are valid, but not licit.

Specifically, SSPX confessions are not valid and the absolutions given are not efficacious. According to canon law, a priest must receive consent from the bishop of the given diocese in order to hear confession (canon 966-969). Permission granted previously was rescinded when SSPX priests were suspended. SSPX priests cannot be granted this consent by any bishop until the suspension is lifted.

The CDF has stated that a person can fulfill their Sunday at an SSPX chapel only if another Mass is not available.

SSPX has an irregular relationship with the Holy See. They are not officially in Schism, but they will not submit to the authority of the Pope.

Only 5 members of the SSPX have been excommunicated. This includes the current superior, Archbishop Fellay.

Only priests can be member of SSPX, lay people who have attached themselves to SSPX chapels are not subject to the canonical penalties and suspensions which the SSPX priests are.

In short, as much as you may love the Extraordinary form of the Mass, I see no reason to put your soul in jeopardy. Attend the Mass celebrated by a priest who is in communion with Rome.

I have great respect and admiration for many SSPX priests I have met. I hope one day they will normalize their relationship with the Holy See. Until then, however, I cannot receive the Sacraments from them. Nor may I attend their Masses, except as an extreme last resort.

 

[ProVobis]

“If priests or people at an SSPX chapel (or anywhere else for that matter) are encouraging people to do so then, quite frankly, they are making the devil mighty happy.”

So you don’t think much of the Prayer to St. Michael?

 

[SenorSalsa]

God is** physically present**, body and blood in the Tabernacle of a Catholic Church.

not to nitpick, but isnt that no different than what will be Transubstantiated on the Altar, so at that point the priest justs needs to be facing the Altar?

Also, to nitpick further. Presumably the sacrifice is being offered to God the Father, as I would presume the Sacrifice of Jesus would not be offered to Jesus. And it is Jesus who is physically present, body and blood in the Tabernacle. As far as i know, God will not be physically present anywhere, as he is not a physical entity. Therefore, the Priest can face in any direction, as God will be all around the Church