Discernment and dating

[buc_fan33]

I found myself in a similar situation this year. I had been in seminary for four years and was more or less certain that the Lord was calling me to serve him as a priest. At the end of my fourth year, I made a 30 day silent retreat with the rest of my classmates, and the Lord threw me for a loop.

To make a VERY long story short, God showed me that I needed to leave seminary. This was confirmed by talking with my retreat director everyday, then my vocations director, seminary formator, rector, and finally my bishop. I’d rather not get into many of the personal details, but suffice it to say that my decision was based on the belief that I was doing the Lord’s will. (I wasn’t kicked out or anything like that.) This decision was NOT me saying that I am not called to be a priest. In a nutshell, it was me saying that I needed to live life a little bit in order to be adequately prepared for the priesthood. Part of that living includes dating. I am currently in a serious dating relationship with a young woman who is very aware of my ongoing discernment. We are open to the possibility of marriage and neither of us has the desire or intention of using the other as an object. We want to grow in holiness together. We also have come to see each other first and foremost as brother and sister, just as the Song of Songs describes.

To sum it all up though, I am still very much thinking about seminary and the priesthood. I think that may be where God is leading me and I have been very honest with my girldfriend about these matters. The point is though, that God takes us all along different paths. Remember, a vocation is a calling from God. No one chooses the priesthood, or marriage for that matter if authentically discerned, for him or herself. My path to the priesthood will be different than all of my other brothers’ paths. If God leads me to marriage, my path to that vocation will be different than anyone else’s. Why? Because God knows how to work in our lives in order to lead us to our ultimate destiny of union with Him. The ultimate question then is, “How can I, you, we, whomever, be holy and get to heaven and in the process take as many people with us as possible?” If you think that God is leading you to have a serious relationship with a woman directed towards marriage but moreso directed towards yours and her personal growth in holiness, then by all means pursue it.

ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS, though, consult a wise and prudent spiritual director, then trust in him and be absolutely obedient. St. Faustina Kowalska, for example, in her diary talks about her relationship with her spriitual director and being obedient to him even over Christ who was appearing to her, and in her obedience was actually doing God’s will. The grace of Holy Orders is powerful and God speaks through his priests. Trust your SD.

Blessings,
buc_fan

 

[J1Priest]

Hello everybody who has posted.

I read through most of the posts, but they are many (and diverse), so I did not read through all.
I’d like to thank you all for the advice, and as someone mentioned, everything can be right, and wrong.

It is a sensitive topic and many theories can arise, which only show that it is an individual matter, and the Lord prepares different roads for each of us. This does not mean we should not ask for advice, because in my case, I like seeing what my possibilities are, what the implications are, etc.

So I thank you again for your thoughts.

After much prayer, keeping distance with this one girl, and talking to Spiritual Director, me and my friend decided to date, and tomorrow Wednesday it will be two weeks.
We feel much peace and joy, and we are at God’s hands.

This may not be what everyone should do in their discernment, but it seems that it’s what God wanted for the both of us.

Pray for us, that we may be faithful to God and be chaste in our relationship.

Pax Christi,
Juan J.

 

[Michael_Saint]

However, my spiritual director told me to . . . get out into the real world, work/study and date.
. . . Dating will provide you with the opportunities to come to understand women better, and understand yourself in terms of the way you relate with women.[SIGN]God bless bro![/SIGN]

I heartily disagree with your spiritual director. The purpose of dating is to discern marriage with a partner. If you think you may be called to the priesthood, dating may be an imprudent step. Also, I would say that your last statement is true as well - about how dating helps you understand better, but I think that dating just for this reason is unnecessarily playing with people’s hearts. All of these things you can get from a dating relationship with women you can also get from friendships with women.

We as a Church have to start discouraging “dating” and begin to ENcourage “courtship”.

 

[Joannm]

I heartily disagree with your spiritual director. The purpose of dating is to discern marriage with a partner. If you think you may be called to the priesthood, dating may be an imprudent step. Also, I would say that your last statement is true as well - about how dating helps you understand better, but I think that dating just for this reason is unnecessarily playing with people’s hearts. All of these things you can get from a dating relationship with women you can also get from friendships with women.

We as a Church have to start discouraging “dating” and begin to ENcourage “courtship”.

If he is seriously t hinking of dating them perhaps he is also trying to discern whether he is being called to marriage or not.

 

[buc_fan33]

I heartily disagree with your spiritual director. The purpose of dating is to discern marriage with a partner. If you think you may be called to the priesthood, dating may be an imprudent step. Also, I would say that your last statement is true as well - about how dating helps you understand better, but I think that dating just for this reason is unnecessarily playing with people’s hearts. All of these things you can get from a dating relationship with women you can also get from friendships with women.

We as a Church have to start discouraging “dating” and begin to ENcourage “courtship”.

I am not one to question anyone’s motives, or second-guess the opinions of others, however; I have no doubt that whoever wrote this is sincere in his/her advice, but he/she is presumably not aware of what your spiritual director is about you, that which would be covered under the “internal forum” to use seminarian speak.

I strongly suggest to listen and be obedient to your spiritual director. Obviously, be certain that he is an orthodox, holy priest, striving to be in line with the Church, not ahead of her, not behind her. A priest can be unorthodox to the right as well as to the left, remember. Then, submit yourself to him completely. Without exception the great saints throughout the history of the Church have recommended obedience to one’s spiritual director as EXTREMELY important, perhaps the most important thing even, in growth in the spritual life. St. Therese of Lisieux, St. Theresa of Avila, most definitely St. Faustina Kowalska, just to name a few, all emphasised obedience. Christ Himself told St. Faustina to listen and obey the will of her spiritual director over even His own words to her in her visions. If you don’t know the story, essentially our Lord was asking St. Faustina to start the devotion to Divine Mercy and He was asking her in a series of visions she had of Him. She took this to her spiritual director who would not permit her to start the devotion right away, so she didn’t. Our Lord later revealed to her that this pleased him even more than if she would have disobeyed and started the order. I absolutely cannot overemphasize obedience to one’s spiritual director. Never underestimate the grace given to a priest by virtue of Holy Orders.

 

[Michael_Saint]

I strongly suggest to listen and be obedient to your spiritual director. Obviously, be certain that he is an orthodox, holy priest, striving to be in line with the Church, not ahead of her, not behind her. . . . Then, submit yourself to him completely.

I am in complete agreement with you. However, the major caveat is: “be certain that he is an orthodox, holy priest, striving to be in line with the Church”. I would be suspect of any priest who recommends that a man “date”. It sounds like a very secular mentality. The Catholic tradition speaks of “courtship”, and it is only for those who believe they are called to marriage, and only for the purpose of discerning whether or not to marry that particular person. If you have desires for the priesthood and believe you may be called, as Juan seems to indicate, I believe that it would be irresponsible (not to mention “unorthodox”) for any priest to recommend he “date”.

 

[Michael_Saint]

If he is seriously t hinking of dating them perhaps he is also trying to discern whether he is being called to marriage or not.

I would agree, Joannm. Sometimes, when one feels pulled in both directions, it is a fine line. On the one hand, you want to test the vocation to marriage. On the other hand, you don’t want to play fast and loose with a young woman’s emotions. I have seen some women who have been really damaged by this - some who have a difficult time trusting men again after the breakup.

 

[Joannm]

I would agree, Joannm. Sometimes, when one feels pulled in both directions, it is a fine line. On the one hand, you want to test the vocation to marriage. On the other hand, you don’t want to play fast and loose with a young woman’s emotions. I have seen some women who have been really damaged by this - some who have a difficult time trusting men again after the breakup.

A friend of mine, a priest, always talks of his dating experience. From a young age he thought he had a vocation to the priesthood but was fighting it. He dated in college where he was a theology major, he even taught it for awhile after college at a HS. Then he met a woman and they both went to law school. They got very serious but he always felt the call to priesthood. Things got serious with the woman and they were talking about marriage, but the woman knew that this idea of the priesthood was in the back of his mind. She suggested he test his vocation and he applied to the seminary…and never left. The woman brought of the gifts at his ordination and a few years latter he officiated at her wedding and eventually baptized her kids. They are still good friends.

The funny thing is that o ne day he was showing a group of us his ordination video and kept pointing out all the women he had dated who he invited to the ordination.

 

[iviking]

To give you a short answer:

No.

If you are seriously discerning a religious Vocation, you should not be dating. The Catholic tradition is that you should not date before you want to establish a family. What makes you want to date?

 

[Joannm]

How do you discern that a person is the one you want to marry if you don’t date them? And then after dating awhile you may decide that this is not the person to marry.

 

[iviking]

How do you discern that a person is the one you want to marry if you don’t date them? And then after dating awhile you may decide that this is not the person to marry.

That would perhaps be hard. You could observe from a distance, but not truly discern I guess.

Such discernment should however be left to persons discerning the married life, and not Priestly Vocation. Priests are not persons who have not found a wife.

 

[johnnydigit]

one method of discernment is dating, because you can realize that you are not called to it. as far as how to do it (e.g. disclosing your discernment), that is another topic. you may realize that religious life makes you much happier than being married would. again, everyone will be at a different point in their discernment and have completely different situations, so a blanket statement like “no” really is insufficient.

unless we really dissect this person’s entire life, personality, spirituality, environment, etc., i think this topic will just be an endless thread of generalized opinions which may lead the OP in the wrong direction. advice is always helpful, but remember that you are a very unique person in need of unique guidance. otherwise, it is really between the OP and his spiritual director.

hopefully your spiritual director will lead you on the correct path which is designed for you and you alone. it can give you more peace than say, filling your head with hundreds of possibilities and scenarios from here that will make you go insane with stress and possibly scare you away from your true vocation.

pray, pray, pray. it’ll all become clear to you over time. don’t worry about this or that, her or the other. God will open the doors for you and lead you along as you go, if you trust in Him. be patient and pray!
pax domini.

fyi, 3-4 years in discernment… and i still need to try and do as i say…

 

[ancilla_Domini]

I advise you to be careful. Really pray diligently before you make any decisions or promises.

My last boyfriend and I split up after a long relationship because he was never sure if he was called to marriage. Before we even started seeing each other, he already felt some kind of call. Still, we gave the relationship a shot. We grew so much in faith together; we both agre that our relationship led us closer to God than we had ever been before. We thought that we had received signs that we were meant to be together. So he started making all sorts of promises that, although I wish he could keep them, must not be in God’s will seeing how we had to end the relationship.

It was a bit confusing, seeing how we thought we were receiving signs regarding our future together. Perhaps we were. Only time will tell where he and I will be; only God knows.

But for now, I’m still healing from it. I do consider this man the love of my (albeit very short so far) life. And while the relationship was very fruitful in leading us both closer to God, I don’t think I’ve ever hurt this much in my life.

Pray, pray, pray. Just pray. See your spiritual director often (it’d be great if she had one too), and try not to get her hopes up since you’re still discerning. That’s easier said than done because in efforts to be super-romantic and charming, some guys end up making their girlfriends believe they’re more ready to commit than they actually are.

We’ll be praying for you!

 

[johnnydigit]

I advise you to be careful. Really pray diligently before you make any decisions or promises.

My last boyfriend and I split up after a long relationship because he was never sure if he was called to marriage. Before we even started seeing each other, he already felt some kind of call. Still, we gave the relationship a shot. We grew so much in faith together; we both agre that our relationship led us closer to God than we had ever been before. We thought that we had received signs that we were meant to be together. So he started making all sorts of promises that, although I wish he could keep them, must not be in God’s will seeing how we had to end the relationship.

It was a bit confusing, seeing how we thought we were receiving signs regarding our future together. Perhaps we were. Only time will tell where he and I will be; only God knows.

But for now, I’m still healing from it. I do consider this man the love of my (albeit very short so far) life. And while the relationship was very fruitful in leading us both closer to God, I don’t think I’ve ever hurt this much in my life.

Pray, pray, pray. Just pray. See your spiritual director often (it’d be great if she had one too), and try not to get her hopes up since you’re still discerning. That’s easier said than done because in efforts to be super-romantic and charming, some guys end up making their girlfriends believe they’re more ready to commit than they actually are.

We’ll be praying for you!

good story to make sure we discerners take great caution in our relationships - friendly or more. another reason to study Theology of the Body in order to learn why and how to deal with such situations. Theology of the Body! Theology of the Body!!

as for your pain, i would consider that the pinnacle of your growing closer to God with him. the closer you get to Christ, the more you will suffer. therefore in your intense suffering, you have established a connection to Christ that few will ever have. i would consider it a great blessing, and to take advantage of it. if you aren’t already, go to adoration often, especially when you are really feeling down and He will heal you and give you great graces. i guarantee it! and pray for your ex while you’re there. pax!

 

[ancilla_Domini]

I used to go to Adoration and keep up several devotions daily. After the breakup, however, I’ve dropped the Adoration because of my schedule (I work night shifts and I have to sleep; there are no perpetual Adoration chapels around). More importantly, on the days that I am awake, despair and sloth keeps me from seeing Him in Adoration. It’s only by God’s grace that I still go to daily Mass and keep up my other devotions. But it’s a new year! I’ll be working harder now.

Anyway, I felt compelled to share my story to let you all know what it’s like for the girl whose boyfriend is discerning.

 

[johnnydigit]

I used to go to Adoration and keep up several devotions daily. After the breakup, however, I’ve dropped the Adoration because of my schedule (I work night shifts and I have to sleep; there are no perpetual Adoration chapels around). More importantly, on the days that I am awake, despair and sloth keeps me from seeing Him in Adoration. It’s only by God’s grace that I still go to daily Mass and keep up my other devotions. But it’s a new year! I’ll be working harder now.

Anyway, I felt compelled to share my story to let you all know what it’s like for the girl whose boyfriend is discerning.

you can try going to Mass earlier or staying after if you can. a good 15 min or more should help you not only prepare for/give thanks for Communion, but also give you some time to meditate as you would in adoration.

this could be a good example of why i think it’s good to have healthy female/male relationships while you’re discerning. dating is a little harder but definitely shouldn’t be an absolute “no” for everyone. thus a spiritual director is absolutely necessary, even for non-discerners!

 

[ancilla_Domini]

Oh, yes - very much agreed! I wouldn’t be healing as quickly as I am now (and it’s still a slow process) if it were not for my wonderful spiritual director!

 

[buc_fan33]

" i think it’s good to have healthy female/male relationships while you’re discerning."

This is absolutely true. “It is not good for man to be alone.” This statement does not only apply to marreid men and women. Human beings were created to be communal, while at the same time being an individual. This applies to all. Even celibates need close friends of both genders, married, single, and celibate.

This sense of individuality is a problem among the priesthood, in my humble opinion. Religious orders have the wonderful blessing of living in community, however, many diocesan priests live alone in a rural parish without a brother priest for many miles. Having someone else around gives you someone to vent problems and frustrations to, and more importantly, someone to keep you accountable. With no one supporting them every day (as a husband would support his wife, or a wife her husband) is it any wonder why we had the sexual abuse crisis as well as many priests who are addicted to alcohol?

It is a sad reality, but one which I think the Church must deal with in order to allow priests to live in community, even if it is a community of two. This may mean that parishes or rectories will have to be closed. One of the things that my college seminary rector was very good at was fostering fraternity among the seminarians. We met for dinner as a community every week, with all of our diocesan brothers every week, and a smaller fraternity consisting of four or five brothers every week. We would have time for fellowship, prayer, and even fraternal correction if it was warranted. I can’t begin to tell you how beneficial this was to my formation.

It is my belief that everyone, single, married, religious, or otherwise, should have something like this in place.

 

[vocatio]

Confession: I went on dates with several women and did not feel called to marriage. Even when I dated long term prior I did not really feel called to marriage, much less of being a father - a real one. Now, when I was in the military, I’d say the reason for me submitting to marriage was by choice, not feeling called to it. I experienced a voice that say “yes you can marry her”, three times. I felt like I was standing naked before a crowd of men and women in Mexico just south of Del Rio. This was 1989.

Truth is I wasn’t even attracted to her physically. I thought she was very immature. But something happened with my previous fear of the seminary. I struggled with returning because of the sex abuse I encountered in the seminary. Sure I resisted, but the fact it was there just caused a lot of discomfort. It took away from the real sacrifice involved. I was anxious about how the bishop and other priests would react to my insistence on all priests and seminarians living transformed without the sexual inuindo that I experienced with the feminine overtones. I’d say in reality I had no business marrying…but I chose to…There was a book I read in high school that was titled “Love is the will”. I took that to heart. I’ve willed to love my wife all these years. I was so anxious about the illicit stuff I saw that I felt Catholicism must not be real…so I bailed after being convinced that I would go to hell if not baptized as an adult completely over my head.

The point is that you choose your path. You can feel happy with anything you chose. But you must have the Will to do what you choose. Happiness is not real, but joy is very real. Don’t expect you to understand now, but later on after you experience some real loss you will konw what I mean.

One last thing to think about…not an agenda…but a way of teaching about the Eastern Catholic Church. We so often think we would be called only to one vocation in life. What about those married men that become priests legitimatly? It’s very possible that we are losing many Latin Catholic priests because they are dating instead of working on the one vocation. You can be good at to vocations, but if you choose one or the other, you must be great at the one. This is how I deal with it now. I put all my effort at being a good husband and father to my 3 children. I foster vocations within my children, hoping that at least one will answer “the call”. We think that being called will fill our every need…partly true…but rather we must actually allow God to fill us up in whatever we choose.

BTW: I was very lucky to not be looking for a beautiful woman. I really did not see her as pretty. Take a look at this http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s272/mdstanzel/Jennifer.jpg.Tell me God didn’t bless me. She’s even more beautiful without all that makeup. And today about 15 years later, she’s still beautiful…not the size 4 anymore, but now that she’s Catholic and growing spiritually I love her more deeply than ever before. I think there is a lesson in this. We can be called to both. But because of the Latin Rite discipline of celibacy of the priesthood, we must choose only one. What’s it going to be, a daddy or a rock star?..that’s what we call them. What ever you choose do you absolute best to be holy.

I hate being a guy that has been guilty of marginalizing women in the past because of looks. She didn’t look like this at first because she wore funky clothes and had a strange old fashioned haricut that didn’t work for her. She came from poverty…all the other women didn’t care about me or my potential…other than the fact I was a seminarian at one time. The wanted a sugar daddy. So ladies, stop marginalizing the guys too.

 

[vocatio]

Sorry about that…the image posted really big. But anyway she’s my sweetheart and I could have gone the other way. After reading some of the other problems with other board memebers, I’m releaved to think I was bi…bivocational…I could go either way. Okay bad joke, but it’s basically true. Dating will without a doubt get in the way. “all men are spiritual fathers”…even single men, priests and married men. Just as all women are mothers. The Latin Church in its wisdome, taken from Paul, rightfully places a call to excellence on ones vocation. You do have a choice. Why else do you hear priests that talk about vocations to the priesthood or religious life saying that if you don’t try you’ll always wonder… Either way, if you don’t have what it takes you’re not likely to continue. But trying to have your cake and eat it too…your justifying…but that’s up to you. Just don’t waste some poor young woman’s best years of her life away.

Also, there are women that will jump at you because you’re a seminarian. My first real girlfriend said that “well if he’s not rich at least he went to the seminary”. Talk about feeling marginalized. Her mom made sure that relationship went nowhere, even after almost 4 years. It should never have been from the start. I brought a poorly practicing girl to a practicing faith. I think she’s happy now with her new family…That was a long time ago.