Discernment of the spirits

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jesusmademe

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I’ve been goung through some texts on this website: Models of Spiritual Direction

I quote Merton: "THE original, primitive meaning of spiritual direction suggests a particular need connected with a special ascetic task, a peculiar vocation for which a professional formation is required. In other words, spiritual direction is a monastic concept. "

" The bishop , the living and visible representative of the apostle who had founded the local Church, spoke for Christ and the apostles , and, helped by the presbyters, took care of all the spiritual needs of his flock.

The individual member of the community was “formed” and “guided” by his participation in the life of the community, and such instruction as was needed was given

[1] first of all by the bishop and presbyters, and then,

[2] through informal admonitions, by one’s parents,

[3] spouse,

[4] friends

[5] and fellow Christians."

I quote Francis Benedict: “It is the precise objective of the spiritual direction relationship to help the person to find his God-given spiritual orientation or direction and in this way to respond in an advantageous manner to his personal call to holiness”

My questions:
If all people need a very personal discernment of the spirit why did the pre Vatican II Church for most part view personal discerment as a monastic concept?

If people were supposed to learn personal discernment in a group setting how could they really get to the extremely personal stuff? Was only the monastics to discuss personal stuff with a director?

How do people get help with personal doscerment today? Do they have a spirotual director? Or is it not something that lay people should care about? Lay people only do discerment in group settings?
Also we are very much society of individual direction. Counseling as we have it today did not even exist before, I guess.
Pastoral counseling isnt necessarily the same as what Merton meant by spiritual direction.
 
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These are good questions. To give you an honest answer, for most lay people who aren’t a member of some group (like Opus Dei, Cursillo, etc) or a third order, and aren’t being mentored for possible clergy vocations, then the opportunities for spiritual direction are few and far between. I’ve always felt like I’m pretty much on my own. It’s okay, as there were a lot of saints who were on their own as hermits in the desert or the woods etc. But this idea that people who aren’t joining the clergy, the monastery or a lay group get any formation from a spiritual director…well, it just doesn’t happen much.

Pastoral counseling seems to mostly be for people dealing with problems. Their marriage is in trouble, they’re having serious doubts about the faith, they’re considering converting, they’re dying, they’re dealing with a family crisis. If you’re not having some major issue or emergency, the priest probably doesn’t have time for you or expects you to go deal with it yourself.
 
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I have a spiritual director, but I am also discerning a ministry. In these circumstances, it is advisable to have a spiritual director. At any rate, it is not uncommon for lay people to have spiritual directors.

I suspect that spiritual direction was considered a monastic activity precisely because they were the ones most like to have the kinds of experiences that made you a good director. A good director needs to be experiences in the spiritual life. Their entire lives were devoted to the spiritual life. Still, you do hear of stories of lay people in centuries past having spiritual directors especially if they are scrupulous or involved in some kind of ministry.
 
mrsdizzyd said:
At any rate, it is not uncommon for lay people to have spiritual directors.
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I disagree with this. It is quite uncommon. The only lay people I ever knew with spiritual directors were the ones who like I said were in/ discerning a vocation to the clergy, a third order, a lay group, or a significant lay ministry. In those cases, usually someone would step in who was either mentoring them in hopes that they would “answer the call” or in the case of an order, discerning from their end whether the person should be accepted.

I actually think one of the selling points of the lay movements such as Cursillo, Opus Dei, the Way, even charistmatic groups, is the opportunity to get some kind of regular spiritual direction and guidance.
 
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Must just be my area then. I know several people with directors. :woman_shrugging:t4:

We also have a lot of vocations and a lot of third order growth around here. Maybe that’s why?
 
My impression is that many parishes will pay more attention to the people who have just gone through RCIA. They’re thought to be more “on fire for the Lord” since they bothered to convert (which to be honest, is probably true); also, the churches want to make sure they don’t drift away after being received into the church.

Us cradles, once we get past about college age, if we aren’t showing signs of a call to the priesthood or ministry, nobody much cares to direct us. You have to be really motivated and go seek it out, chase people down, get people interested in you. It’s similar to getting a mentor for your chosen field of work. Some people are really good at networking and can connect with mentors, or spiritual directors. Other people will try to connect with a spiritual director and end up feeling rebuffed. Still other people will just skip the whole thing because they don’t see it as productive, or the options they see for “spiritual directors” are not attractive to them.
 
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Of the people I known with directors, I’m the only one from RCIA. Most of them are stay at home / homeschooling mothers actually. But, like I said, I am discerning a ministry.
 
Tis_Bearself said:
expects you to go deal with it yourself.
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Where does this idea come from that one should learn discerment on his/her own when being a lay person?
Is there anything to what Merton says that only monastics need spiritual direction?
Where does this thinking come from?
What then was the laity to do if going deep into spirituality was not really for them?
The Church does after all say that all are called to the spiritual life.
What is the Church’s official sayinh on this?
If most singers need private lessons then I would say that people who are learning the spiritual life need private spiritual direction. The Church said otherwise in the past (or even today).
 
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I don’t know if the Church has an official position on spiritual direction. Maybe someone else does.

I will say that Merton’s perspective makes sense. A lot of people are pretty simple in their approach to the spiritual life. They pray, go to church, do good deeds and try to love their neighbor, but their main focus is stuff like being a good spouse and/or a good parent. You don’t really need a spiritual director for that. You need good role models and occasionally some pastoral counseling or a resource for married people, whether it’s a Catholic book, workshop or a talk. But you need to mostly be discussing stuff with your husband and family, not with some spiritual director.

Spiritual directors are more for people trying to discern a vocation or trying to learn how to go deeper in their relationship with the Lord.
 
Yes but…how can you even know how to pray without a director?
I am lucky to have a Benedictine who can give me advice on how to practice silence. It is much easier with a director.
Arent all called to silence? I am not even a Catholic yet so this monk only help me deal with the basic stuff. I cant learn the basic stuff alone or in a group.
How is it that other people can learn the basic stuff in groups or alone?

How does this “learning in a group setting” work?
I am understanding that Merton was talking but a deepening of the spiritual life and using a spiritual director for that.

Why dont marriage requiers spiritual direction? Isnt marriage as much a spiritual life as a monastic life? What does the Church say about this?
 
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I’m with @mrsdizzyd on this. Lots of lay persons around here have spiritual directors outside of RCIA, ministries, spiritual communities, third orders and vocation discernment. I could have one tomorrow if I just asked (though I concede that it’s often more difficult than this—I know someone who searched for eight years before finding the right one for her).

Finding a spiritual director can be very, very challenging but they are out there.

All this said, I don’t deny your experience. I’m just saying that it’s not like that everywhere.
 
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jesusmademe said:
Yes but…how can you even know how to pray without a director?
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In my day, our Catholic parents and our schoolteachers taught us how to pray. At least the basics. If we wanted to get more into some particular form of prayer, like contemplative prayer, or Taize, or charismatic prayer, we might need to then read some books or join/ form a group.

As for marriage requiring spiritual direction, some people need to discern whether they should marry or do something else like join a religious order. Those people might need spiritual direction. But a lot of people just know they want to get married and all they need to do is find the right person and for a lot of them it happens pretty quickly and naturally with someone they meet in school or right after. They don’t need to spend a lot of time discussing it with a third party. I certainly didn’t need to sit and discuss with a spiritual director to decide whether I wanted to marry my husband. And of course, for things relating to our marriage, I discussed those things with my fiance/ husband.
 
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Tis_Bearself said:
In my day, our Catholic parents and our schoolteachers taught us how to pray. At least the basics.
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School teachers? How did they teach it? Here in Sweden the older generation talk about having morning prayer at school. They sang hymns at school and said grace. I dont think they were taught how to have a spiritual prayer life.
What did your teachers teach you about prayers in school?
Tis_Bearself said:
As for marriage requiring spiritual direction, some people need to discern whether they should marry or do something else like join a religious order.
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You are refering to discerning a vocation. I am refering to discernment after accepting a vocation. I dont understand why the Church tell us that marriage is not as spiritual as the monastic life. To me they are equally spiritual. Why is a married man in less need of a spiritual director than a monastic? I am trying to figure out the exact thing about marriage that makes it much easier. I myself just can’t see how marriage is easier than the monastic life.
Marriage must be asceticism. Living with the same person until death isnt easy. Many fail…so it aint easy. People need direction.
Tis_Bearself said:
But a lot of people just know they want to get married
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Some actually say it is very easy to think: ok I should get married!
But it is not really that simple.
It seems people just dont really look at other options. People who go to church just meet many monks/nuns. They meet the Priest. People dont really discern. They just follow the path they know most about.
This why I just dont understand your statement.
Tis_Bearself said:
And of course, for things relating to our marriage, I discussed those things with my fiance/ husband.
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Can you give me an example of what those things can be?
'cause I dont see why a spiritual director would be of no help.
I guess a lot about marriage is rasing children. This is very much a medical and psycholohical thing you could say. Thus you need direction in those areas. I still dont see why a personal director is unecessary. Rasing children has to do with the spirotual life as well. Marriage seems like a hard life. Monks seem to get an easier life in many ways.
 
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jesusmademe said:
Marriage must be asceticism. Living with the same person until death isnt easy. Many fail…so it aint easy.
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Some of us are blessed and it’s pretty easy to stay together. Other people have big challenges. Marriage is not, however, “asceticism”, nor is it meant to be.

The reason why you don’t sit around discussing your marriage with a spiritual director is what I said above. You married your spouse, you didn’t marry a spiritual director. Unless your marriage is in trouble and you need pastoral counseling, you should be discussing your marriage with your spouse. This is normal for most people. They don’t even have to think about it.
 
I don’t think pre vatican 2 or anyone ever thought we didn’t need some level of personal discernment, maybe they just assumed it’s simple and like some other posters said, only a problem when your having problems, (sick, crazy, poor, hungry, oppressed). And fully have faith the body of believers around you will help guide you and you them in the right direction along with the Holy Spirit to holiness and prosperity of your calling. We are all one body with different parts in the church, pray and ask God and those you love an love you for guidance, that’s USUALLY enough:

I love this webpage , wherever did you find it? , SAVE!

As for why was personal discernment a monastic concept? Because if it wasn’t obvious you had all these other christians and clergy and you own family to help you discern the right paths to take to become more holy and fulfill God’s purposes. It didn’t mean you didn’t have a personal relationship with Jesus, you still pray an praise and should always on your own. These articles focus on understanding better how to do as Paul says in Roman’s 12, “be transformed by the renewing of your mind…” when you are away from the church, in your own so to speak for the most part. If your not away even, these early monastics and such still have something to show us as fellow believers and saints sharing this gospel and faith with us.
 
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Aha I see.
The spouse have a deep spiritual relationship with you and can then help you in an even more personal way than a spiritual director. A monastic dont have a spouse so he has a spiritual director instead. Am I understanding this correctly?
The spouse might not be the wisest person ever so in some cases a wise director might be needed.

And the I am not really talking about discussing marriage with a director. I am simply saying that you go to a spirotual director to ask about your prayer life and the practice of silence.
 
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You can be married and also seeing a spiritual director about your prayer life, or about being called to the diaconate, to a third order, to another ministry, etc.

When you talk to your spouse it’s mostly about your marriage. Many spouses aren’t really in a position to help you with your prayer life or spiritual growth. That’s a very personal thing.
 
Just saying, don’t discount the fact that God is a spiritual director and is more than capable of directing us each individually in very specific ways. He will use other people, things, books, the Bible, priests etc. to do so in ways that are very personal and individual to us if we pray. I have never had a spiritual director, though I am part of one of those ‘lay communities’ Tis mentioned or should I say forgot to mention (Secular Institutes) as we are often left out or included with Third orders though we aren’t much like them really. I suppose I have some sort of direction now but I still think of God guiding it not my Order as He is there day to day where as they are not.
 
From the Luke Dysinger website (on asceticism) LATER the Greek philosophers employed it in reference to moral perfection; it described the exercise and art of refraining from vice and practicing virtue (the word “virtue” aretē , ἀρετή , means “excellence”, and also originally referred to athletic excellence).

So what is the definition of the term asceticism? Has anyone given a good solid definition?
Can raising children be asceticism and can practicing singing be asceticism?
What is included in the definition?
 
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