Disciples Doubts

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Here’s something much more critical for you: God is deliberately withholding the truth from the Jews, even to this day (cf Is 6:9-10; 13:10-15; Jn 12:37-41).
As I read your posts on various threads I feel responding would be useless at this point simply because I am not clear on what your theology is --some of your statements–such as the above that you put blue–I think will make any discussion futile. I do not wish to derail the thread but I am interested in your theology regarding the Jews. Is it something that you can breifly explained or can you refer me to a cite were I can read up on it. I believe you and other posters are talking at cross purposes and that this is the reason – I think we need a clearer understanding of your beliefs regarding Gods/Christs interaction with the Jews before progress in discussion can be made as I think we have different understandings. Thank you.

As a side note–we would not hold private revelation to be scripture or as anything binding on the faithful.

Peace,
Mark
 
As I read your posts on various threads I feel responding would be useless at this point simply because I am not clear on what your theology is --some of your statements–such as the above that you put blue–I think will make any discussion futile. I do not wish to derail the thread but I am interested in your theology regarding the Jews. Is it something that you can breifly explained or can you refer me to a cite were I can read up on it. I believe you and other posters are talking at cross purposes and that this is the reason – I think we need a clearer understanding of your beliefs regarding Gods/Christs interaction with the Jews before progress in discussion can be made as I think we have different understandings. Thank you.

As a side note–we would not hold private revelation to be scripture or as anything binding on the faithful.

Peace,
Mark
Well, my theology on Israel is a bit involved, but what are you wanting to do? Frame the eucharist in terms of Scott Hahn’s book?
 
Well, my theology on Israel is a bit involved, but what are you wanting to do? Frame the eucharist in terms of Scott Hahn’s book?
No. I found your statement about God deliberately withholding the truth from Israel interesting (and informative regarding some of your responses) and I wanted to explore your beliefs about Israel a little bit as it seems to me that they inform your understanding of the NT as ours inform ours. I was seeking to gain a fuller understanding of your views–nothing more nothing less.

Why do I have to want to do anything other than understand someone elses beliefs? Is there a reason why you are reluctant to share them? I wasn’t going to make you discuss them–I simply wanted to explore them and to gain a little knowledge regarding them as they related to Israel.

Peace,
Mark
 
No. I found your statement about God deliberately withholding the truth from Israel interesting (and informative regarding some of your responses) and I wanted to explore your beliefs about Israel a little bit as it seems to me that they inform your understanding of the NT as ours inform ours. I was seeking to gain a fuller understanding of your views–nothing more nothing less.

Why do I have to want to do anything other than understand someone elses beliefs? Is there a reason why you are reluctant to share them? I wasn’t going to make you discuss them–I simply wanted to explore them and to gain a little knowledge regarding them as they related to Israel.

Peace,
Mark
What interests you about my use of scripture regarding Israel?
 
How could the disciples not believe that Jesus would be with them in the form of bread and wine when shortly before they had witnessed the miracle of loaves and fishes? It wasn’t like a magic trick but a true miracle.
GC
Can you explain a bit more why you think miracles demand total trust in the miracle-worker? I cannot quite see the necessity for this.
 
How could the disciples not believe that Jesus would be with them in the form of bread and wine when shortly before they had witnessed the miracle of loaves and fishes? It wasn’t like a magic trick but a true miracle.
“Unless I place my hands in His side…”

Different people establish very different burdens of proof for what they might choose to believe.

That said, why do you think His “disciples” did not believe in the real presence?

I think it is clear that the initial teaching caused many to reject Him. Despite what you may have seen or heard the Man do, if He told you He would literally give you His flesh to eat, how would you have responded (at least initially).

He didn’t say He would give you His flesh and blood under the species of Bread and Wine after His death.

He said He would give you His flesh as real food.

They Apostles got the rest of the message at the last supper.

I don’t think we have any indication that any of His disciples, save perhaps Judas, rejected what he said at the last supper.

Do we?

Chuck
 
I was wondering if someone could interact with me in the writings of St. Paul concerning his teaching on justification. Obviously most will not wish to participate. However, as someone who is seeking the truth, and who must submit to truth above any man, there is no better place to start than to debate concepts and definitions.

Now, I would like to say that in Paul, there are places where to be “justified” CANNOT mean an inner renewal and sanctification of the inner person so that an behaviorally unjust person become behaviorally just (to literally make one righteous instantaneous and progressively). For instance,*** “…for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified…on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the world through Jesus Christ”*** (Rom 2:13, 16). Since this justification takes place at the end of this human history, and because it is a justification which is based on examining the whole life lived, it CANNOT mean a kick-start for a new moral transformation from which unjustness becomes justness. Rather, justification in Rom 2 must refer to a forensic declaration on a person, a verdict, based upon a finished examination of that person’s life (i.e. whether they did good or bad). Do you see this? Therefore, we have an instance where justification is a legal declaration based on one’s life and obedience.

In other places, Paul speaks of a justification which takes place now in our time, when we are converted in faith to Jesus. We are “justified” (rom 3:24- past tense) through the “redemption” which is in Christ Jesus. Christ Jesus brings a liberation from sin which accomplishes a justification which then is spoken of as happening in the past. “Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law” (Rom 3:28). We see that there is a past tense to this justification, so that faith issues in justification, and not works. Justification is otherwise defined in terms of pardon and forgiveness (Rom 4:1-9) a restored relationship to God in peace (Rom 5:1-2), and a new status of being in God’s grace (Rom 5:9). In fact, it is the “blood” of Jesus which justifies us (Rom 5:9). Not the regeneration and renewal of the human heart in baptism.

Therefore, how can we define justification as a transformation of the inner person whereby they convert from practicing wickedness to practicing righteousness, by which is later used by God to appropriately declare someone just and holy???

Paul is speaking of a justification “of the ungodly”!! This is language of pardon and remission of sin, reconciliation, and a new status in God’s favor!

I know that many of you may be quick to turn to James 2:24 which definitely (it truth) teaches that Abraham was justified by works, and not by faith alone. We have a situation here, for Catholics sometimes do not realize that Paul teaches that Abraham was “justified” when He believed in Genesis 15:6, right? But James is speaking of Abraham being “justified” by works later in his life? And both times, the word “justified” is used in the past tense!!! In other words, Abraham was justified by faith in God’s promise, it was done (past tense). Then, no less real, Abraham was justified by works later on, and it was done (past tense).

Justification takes place 2 times in Abraham’s life, so far as the Scripture is teaching. We should understand then that justification, in neither Paul or James, is the spiritual transformation of a person’s heart, but in both cases (Abraham/James), justification is a forensic declaration passed over the human creature once their faith and works are examined and tested. Do you it never is referring to the ongoing spiritual renewal and progressive sanctification which occurs in our lives? It is a declaration, a verdict, on the basis of faith and works, that one is right in God’s sight.

How can we bring this to reconcile with Trent?
First, one must realize certain things to properly understand Paul’s writings. Paul’s antagonists on his missionary journeys were the Judiacizers. These were Jewish converts who demanded that Gentiles submit to the law just as they did. Thus did Paul have to preach against ‘works’ which are the works of the law like circumcision. Despite the edict of the Council of Jerusalem these people were encountered by Paul pactically everywhere he went. Both James and Paul use the term ‘works’ but there is a difference between them. Paul uses the term works to refer to the works of the Jewish law. In James however, the term ‘works’ refers to acts of love and charity, feeding the hungry, healing the sick, clothing the naked, etc. See Mt 25: 31-39

31 "When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 33 and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. 34 Then the King will say to those at his right hand, ‘Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? 39 And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.’ [RSV]

Continued…
 
Continuing…

In addition one must realize that Paul’s writings were remedial in nature. Paul preached the gospel orally in the various towns and cities he went but he did not stay long in any one place. Instead he placed men such as Titus and Timothy in charge. Paul would go on but he would receive reports from the places he went before and if a problem arose there he would write to that city a letter addressing the problem. Now Paul might write on one subject to different towns who might have different problems on that subject that Paul would address in his letters. Thus to take a verse from one of Paul’s letters and formulate a doctrine or a belief without taking into account other parts of scripture as well as the Oral Tradition [see 2 Thess 2:15] is a perversion of the gospel. Thus to say that Paul said all works were unnecessary would be wrong. Only those works of the Law.

Now protestantism has a problem here as it does not accept the Oral Tradition despite what 2 Thess 2:15 states. Catholicism, in conformity with 2 Thess 2:15, says that both the Oral Tradition and the Written Tradition are authoritative since they both emanate from the same source, that being the Holy Spirit.
 
What interests you about my use of scripture regarding Israel?
I would rather not jump to conclusions about your beliefs based on a few posts–I’d prefer to let you speak for yourself and I am confused by your reluctance to do so regarding this. What interests me is that it would appear you believe that there is a different plan of salvation for Israel/Jews than for the rest of the world–possibly that they are still bound by the old covenant. Even though Jesus was a Jew, his disciples were Jews and he proclaimed his word to the Jews. I am not confident that this is an accurate representation of your belief and so I am seeking clarification. From the one post that peeked my interest I am not convinced by the 3 passages you cited though I have only looked at them briefly and need to study them more fully and in the context of the whole of Scripture. Of course if you mean something else–then I would be wasting my time to look into this line of thought at this time.

However, since you do not appear to be willing to clarify your belief regarding this or to provide a cite where I can explore it as I have time–I will not trouble you anymore. Finally it is not your “use” of scripture that interests me but the conclusions you have drawn from scripture.

Peace,
Mark
 
I would rather not jump to conclusions about your beliefs based on a few posts–I’d prefer to let you speak for yourself and I am confused by your reluctance to do so regarding this. What interests me is that it would appear you believe that there is a different plan of salvation for Israel/Jews than for the rest of the world–possibly that they are still bound by the old covenant. Even though Jesus was a Jew, his disciples were Jews and he proclaimed his word to the Jews. I am not confident that this is an accurate representation of your belief and so I am seeking clarification. From the one post that peeked my interest I am not convinced by the 3 passages you cited though I have only looked at them briefly and need to study them more fully and in the context of the whole of Scripture. Of course if you mean something else–then I would be wasting my time to look into this line of thought at this time.

However, since you do not appear to be willing to clarify your belief regarding this or to provide a cite where I can explore it as I have time–I will not trouble you anymore. Finally it is not your “use” of scripture that interests me but the conclusions you have drawn from scripture.

Peace,
Mark
OK.
 
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