Discipline and Tradition

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I will give you a few quotes to consider. The first is another quote from Cardinal Ratzinger
Can you give me a reference for this please?
As we saw from the underlined and bolded portions of the quote, “the Mass of Pius V” is not really the Mass of Pius V. In other words, St. Pius V did not create a new Mass like Paul VI did, but merely unified Catholic worship by eliminating the slight variations found in the Mass throughout the Western Rite. He reworked the Missal so that all would have one unifying missal, which eliminated the possibility of those with heretical leanings from adapting their Mass to any of the reforms of the heretics, which was a danger in those turbulent times. After the promulgtion of the Missal of Pius V, it was then the official Missal that all were to use (aside for the few exceptions allowed for missals more than 200 years old). What Pius V did makes perfect sense: He unified Catholic worship in a time of turmoil and confusion, and thereby set up a boundary of protection for the Mass. Pope Paul VI, on the other hand, created a completely new Mass, which he called a “new Rite” and gave the impression that the old was now forbidden.
Can you prove that Paul VI created a new mass? Can you cite a reference where he calls it a “new Rite”? Can you please cite where he “gave the impression the old was now forbidden”?
With that in mind, let us consider the Oath taken by Pope Paul VI upon being elected Pope:
Can you prove that Paul VI changed anything of Sacred Tradition? Can you show that the changes Paul VI made were different in species to previous changes made, such as the combining of the liturgy of the Word with the liturgy of the Eucharist, or the removal of the “kiss of peace” I think it’s called?
 
Can you give me a reference for this please?
It is from Cardinal Ratzinger’s book titled “Milestones”.
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Atreyu:
Can you prove that Paul VI created a new mass? Can you cite a reference where he calls it a “new Rite”? Can you please cite where he “gave the impression the old was now forbidden”?

Can you prove that Paul VI changed anything of Sacred Tradition? Can you show that the changes Paul VI made were different in species to previous changes made, such as the combining of the liturgy of the Word with the liturgy of the Eucharist, or the removal of the “kiss of peace” I think it’s called?
Some of the questions you asked will take too long to reply to in detail; instead I will provide the following quote for your consideration. This is taken from a general audience given by Pope Paul VI the week before the new Mass was imposed on the Church.
Pope Paul VI to a general audience,November 26, 1969:

Our Dear Sons and Daughters:
  1. We ask you to turn your minds once more to the liturgical innovation of the new rite of the Mass. This new rite will be introduced into our celebration of the holy Sacrifice starting from Sunday next which is the first of Advent, November 30 [in Italy].
  2. A new rite of the Mass: **a change in a venerable tradition **that has gone on for centuries. This is something that affects our hereditary religious patrimony, **which seemed **to enjoy the privilege of being untouchable and settled. It seemed to bring the prayer of our forefathers and our saints to our lips and to give us the comfort of feeling faithful to our spiritual past, which we kept alive to pass it on to the generations ahead.
  3. …This change will affect the ceremonies of the Mass. We shall become aware, perhaps with some feeling of annoyance, that the ceremonies at the altar are no longer being carried out with the same words and gestures to which we were accustomed …
  4. We must prepare for this many-sided inconvenience. It is the kind of upset caused by every novelty that breaks in on our habits. We shall notice that pious persons are disturbed most, because they have their own respectable way of hearing Mass, and **they will feel shaken out of their usual thoughts and obliged to follow those of others. Even priests may feel some annoyance in this respect. **
  5. So what is to be done on this special and historical occasion? First of all, we must prepare ourselves. This novelty is no small thing. We should not let ourselves be surprised by the nature, or even the nuisance, of its exterior forms…
  6. … A prophetic moment is occurring in the mystical body of Christ, which is the Church. This moment is shaking the Church
  7. It is here that the greatest newness is going to be noticed, the newness of language. No longer Latin, but the spoken language will be the principal language of the Mass. [NOTE: Vatican II specifically stated that Canon of the Mass was to remain in Latin] The introduction of the vernacular will certainly be a great sacrifice for those who know the beauty, the power and the expressive sacrality of Latin. We are parting with the speech of the Christian centuries; we are becoming like profane intruders in the literary preserve of sacred utterance. We will lose a great part of that stupendous and incomparable artistic and spiritual thing, the Gregorian chant. [NOTE: Vatican II specifically stated that Gregorian chant was to remain].
  8. We have reason indeed for regret, reason almost for bewilderment. …
 
I want to make it clear that I’m not interested in whether or not the Roman Missal of 1970 is good or not. What I’m interested in is the scope of which the Pope and the Magisterium can change the liturgy. It is my contention that the order of the mass is a matter of discipline, and as such it is mutable and the Magisterium of the time is the agent that controls the order. I don’t know how to reconcile this with your comments from then Cardinal Ratzinger though. My other contention is that the Roman Missal of 1970 (or 1975 perhaps?) is the normative order of the mass in the Roman rite of the Catholic Church, with the Traditional Latin Mass (aka the Roman Missal of 1962) as a valid form of the mass that can only be undertaken licitly with the approval of the diocesan bishop. Apparently the indult that I have heard is coming (or has come?) from the Magisterium changes this slightly so that the TLM may be celebrated unless forbidden by the diocesan bishop. Personally I think this is a positive step, but how I feel is irrelevant. What I’m interested in is how the authority of the Magisterium works with the liturgy.
I sympotthetic to your situation. Your debater has framed the question so you are on the defence.
IMO, you sould retrace teh begining and work out what the definition of Traditiion is he using. Does he mean faith and morals Tradition with a big “T” or the rosary small “t”. This is important for him to state so you can refer to it later.
Next the distinction between disapline and doctrine again for clearity sake. I would say his understanding of disapline/traditon is faulty.

Doctrine is a statement of truth. It can not be changed. It may be clerified but never changed. ex: John is a boy

Disapline is judgement of action. It can be prudent or imprudent. ex.John, you must cross the street.
He may come close to being hit if it was a imprudent command or very safe if it was prudent.

The Pope has no right to change the essencial elements of the mass ex :substance: bread and wine

But other unessencial elements may change in accordence to prudence or imprudence. I believe Communion in the hand was imprudent and lead to many problems but since it is approved we need to live with it. The same with altar girls.

It has nothing to do with natual law. Which is dealing with the essence and nature of a thing-- ie. doctine or morality
 
Atreyu,

I have another quote for you. This is taken from the book The Reform of the Roman Liturgy by Msgr. Klaus Gamber. The forward to the French edition of the book (which I will quote at the end of this post) was written by Cardinal Ratzinger.

The following quote from the book, and from the introduction written by Cardinal Ratzinger, addresses a few of the questions you have raised.
Reform of the Roman Liturgy:

"Only four years had passed since the publication of the new Missal when Pope Paul VI surprised the Catholic world with a new Ordo Missæ, dated April 6, 1969. The revision made in 1965 did not touch the traditional liturgical rite. In accordance with the mandate of Article 50 of the Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, it had been primarily concerned with removing some later additions to the Order of the Mass. The publication of the Ordo Missæ of 1969, however, created a new liturgical rite. In other words, the traditional liturgical rite had not simply been revised as the Council had intended. Rather, it had been completely abolished, and a couple of years later, the traditional liturgical rite was, in fact, forbidden.

All this leads to the question: Does such a radical reform follow the tradition of the Church? …

The argument could be made that the pope’s authority to introduce a new liturgical rite, that is, to do so without a decision by a council, can be derived from the “full and highest power” (plena et suprema potestas) he has in the Church, as cited by the First Vatican Council, i.e., power over matters quæ ad disciplinam et regimen ecclesiæ per totum orbem diffusæ pertinent (“that pertain to the discipline and rule of the Church spread out over all the world”) (Denzinger, 1831).

However, the term discipline in no way applies to the liturgical rite of the Mass, particularly in light of the fact that the popes have repeatedly observed that the rite is founded on apostolic tradition. For this reason alone, the rite cannot fall into the category of “discipline and rule of the Church.” To this we can add that there is not a single document, including the Codex Iuris Canonici, in which there is a specific statement that the pope, in his function as the supreme pastor of the Church, has the authority to abolish the traditional liturgical rite. In fact, nowhere is it mentioned that the pope has the authority to change even a single local liturgical tradition. The fact that there is no mention of such authority strengthens our case considerably.

There are clearly defined limits to the plena et suprema potestas (full and highest powers) of the pope. For example, there is no question that, even in matters of dogma, he still has to follow the tradition of the universal Church—that is, as Vincent of Lerins says, what has been believed (quod semper, quod ubique, quod ab omnibus). In fact, there are several authors who state quite explicitly that it is clearly outside the pope’s scope of authority to abolish the traditional rite.

Thus, the eminent theologian Suarez (who died in 1617), citing even earlier authors such as Cajetan (who died in 1534), took the position that a pope would be schismatic “if he, as is his duty, would not be in full communion with the body of the Church as, for example, if he were to excommunicate the entire Church, or if he were to change all the liturgical rites of the Church that have been upheld by apostolic tradition.” [Et hoc secundo modo posset Papa esse schismaticus, si nollet tenere cum toto Ecclesiæ corpore unionem et coniunctionem quam debet, ut si tenat et totem Ecclesiam excommunicare, aut si vellel omnes Ecclesiasticas cæremonias apostolica traditione firmatas evertere.]

As we examine the issue of unlimited papal authority and how it relates to the authority to change the established liturgical rite, if the statement made by Suarez still is not entirely convincing, this argument just may be: the already established fact that, until Pope Paul VI, there has not been a single pope who introduced the type of fundamental changes in liturgical forms which we now witness.
The following is a portion of the introduction to that book, written by Cardinal Ratzinger:
“J.A. Jungmann, one of the truly great liturgists of our century, defined the liturgy of his time, such as it could be understood in the light of historical research, as a 'liturgy which is the fruit of development”…

What happened after the Council was something else entirely: in the place of liturgy as the fruit of development came fabricated liturgy. We abandoned the organic, living process of growth and development over the centuries, and replaced it–as in a manufacturing process–with a fabrication, a banal on- the-spot product.” (Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger)
 
Semper Fi, USMC.

You must read the same website I read. I couldn’t resist doing the same quote from Rorate Caeli Blog spot.

“After the Second Vatican Council, the impression arose that the pope really could do anything in liturgical matters, especially if he were acting on the mandate of an ecumenical council. Eventually, the idea of the given-ness of the liturgy, the fact that one cannot do with it what one will, faded from the public consciousness of the West. In fact, the First Vatican Council had in no way defined the pope as an absolute monarch. On the contrary, it presented him as the guarantor of obedience to the revealed Word. The pope’s authority is bound to the Tradition of faith, and that also applies to the liturgy. It is not ‘manufactured’ by the authorities. Even the pope can only be a humble servant of its lawful development and abiding integrity and identity.”

Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger

Notice the currant Pope says that " the Pope’s authority is bound to the Tradition of faith, and that also applies to the liturgy.
 
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