Disciplining someone else's kid

[cmscms]

I really need some advice. I am unemployed and in the mean time, a lady has asked me to help care for her kids. The money is good by the hour. But I am starting to think, no one could pay me enough to put up with disrespect from a kid. They are not mean just very lazy and disorganized kids who rarely listen. For example, if it is time to go, they will play with a toy and ignore anyone who tells them to start getting ready. They are 7, 8, 10 and 11.

One day, the 10 year old was acting like a whiny baby because he could not find his shoes.

My questions is ‘Is it normal for a 10 year old to misplace everything even his own shoes?’. I mean sure things happen but these kids can’t find anything. Also, if it is time to eat and they are just playing with their games, I am thinking of taking their game away and putting it someone they can’t find until they apologize for not co-operating. The problem is, knowing these kids, they will lie to their mom and probably say something like I was purposely breaking their toys. I think if the mom gets my side of the story, she will believe me but she will not discipline her kids to listen to me. One day she overheard me lecture one of the kids for hitting another one and after I was done, she gave the kid a treat. How is this kid going to learn???

I have talked to another lady who has cared for her kids and she just basically said ‘If you expect the parents to help you discipline the kids good luck’. But the worse is, one day I walked into the house and the mom’s exact words were ‘The kids are active today, you will really need to calm them down’. I nearly fell on my back ! Shouldn’t a mom tell her kids to calm !!! If the kids don’t listen to her, would I not be foolish to think they would listen to me?

Overall, this is a good family. They are giving me work while I am unemployed but… I have to wonder if it is worth it?

CM

 

[EasterJoy]

From what I gather, it is normal for 13 year olds to misplace their shoes. One of the moms at baseball practice was chiding her son for losing his shoes and making them late, and practically everyone else swung their heads around and said in disbelief: Yours, too?!? I suppose if we ever grew out of needing correction, the monasteries wouldn’t need abbots.

Whether you can discipline to your satisfaction when you are in charge of kids is something you work out before you accept the job. You find out what you are allowed to do and what you aren’t and you outline what you will tolerate and what you won’t, and so on. You can have totally different rules than the parents have, as long as the parents are willing to say, “We’ve worked it out. When Mrs. Smith is here, it is Mrs. Smith’s rules. If you don’t mind her, she can impose consequences, and if you’re really a stinker, I’ll have consequences of my own when she lets me know.” Many kids have one set of rules when it is just Mom, one set when it is just Dad, another set when it is just Grandma, another when it is just Grandpa, and another set at school. They may complain, but they’re very adaptive that way, and don’t let them pretend differently.

Then, if you are smart, you will never rat them out, provided they come around when you discipline them. If you compliment them for finally getting their heads on straight and tell them you will not complain to the parents, it builds trust. Otherwise, you’ll find they’ll figure out quickly that they may as well be hung for a sheep as for a lamb, and will really go all the way when they realize they’re going to get it from their parents, anyway.

 

[Allegra]

It’s very normal for a child to misplace their shoes and things, especially if they are used to someone else coming up behind them and picking them up when they kick them off and putting them away. Before accepting the job, I would agree with both parents about how matters of discipline will be handled. I’ve met parents all over the spectrum from “In my days, teachers wacked kids when they acted up. If you’re too much of a wimp to do that, it’s your problem!” all the way to, “How dare you make my son sit in time out! I’m the only one who should discipline my child! If he’s causing a problem, you tell me and I will deal with him at home!” Frankly, I would not deal with a parent who wasn’t fine with time out, having things taken away that were being misused, and the taking away of privileges. However, if you need work, you need work. The good news is that, assuming they have been taught even the most remote respect for authority, kids are perfectly able to adapt to different environments and understand that your rules are not the same as their parents rules.

 

[Bill_7154]

I really need some advice. I am unemployed and in the mean time, a lady has asked me to help care for her kids. The money is good by the hour. But I am starting to think, no one could pay me enough to put up with disrespect from a kid. They are not mean just very lazy and disorganized kids who rarely listen. For example, if it is time to go, they will play with a toy and ignore anyone who tells them to start getting ready. They are 7, 8, 10 and 11.

One day, the 10 year old was acting like a whiny baby because he could not find his shoes.

My questions is ‘Is it normal for a 10 year old to misplace everything even his own shoes?’. I mean sure things happen but these kids can’t find anything. Also, if it is time to eat and they are just playing with their games, I am thinking of taking their game away and putting it someone they can’t find until they apologize for not co-operating. The problem is, knowing these kids, they will lie to their mom and probably say something like I was purposely breaking their toys. I think if the mom gets my side of the story, she will believe me but she will not discipline her kids to listen to me. One day she overheard me lecture one of the kids for hitting another one and after I was done, she gave the kid a treat. How is this kid going to learn???

I have talked to another lady who has cared for her kids and she just basically said ‘If you expect the parents to help you discipline the kids good luck’. But the worse is, one day I walked into the house and the mom’s exact words were ‘The kids are active today, you will really need to calm them down’. I nearly fell on my back ! Shouldn’t a mom tell her kids to calm !!! If the kids don’t listen to her, would I not be foolish to think they would listen to me?

Overall, this is a good family. They are giving me work while I am unemployed but… I have to wonder if it is worth it?

CM

What this tells me is that whoever is raising them, is not disciplining them whatsoever. Their parent(s) do not provide structure or discipline for them, hense you get this behavior from them. From their perspective it is natural, it’s their daily routine.

It reminds me of one of my nephews. I noticed his mother had this deficit early on when the kid was a baby and tried to provide her with education around teaching kids discipline and the benefits of doing so, and the drawbacks- mostly in the long term more than immediately or as kids, he will face by missing out on this. It went in one ear and out the other.

To this kid the word 'no" means “keep doing what your doing and eventually mommy might start to nag you about it, thatt’s when you whine back in response…keep this ritual up for like 15 minutes and sometimes mommy will give in and sometimes mommy will start yelling at which time you will have to stop…then you throw a minor temper tantrum”

For most kids no, means no.

I suggest you have a conversation with the mother up front as she has no clue about what discipline is and doesn’t practice it with her kids obviously. I would explain your concerns up front, and tell her in your house you like for kids to behave such and such way (i.e. not do whatever they want, whenever they want) and you have a few idea’s to help them to follow the structure you want in your house. Then you can tell her about your plans with the games, whatever.

I find it annoying to watch my nephew walk all over his own mother when I am at their house, and I feel frustrated and trapped when they are in my house with their mom. I have simple rules “no running, no yelling, no jumping”. This kid will run and jump and when he’s told “don’t do that” by me he will look right at me with this big grin on his face that’s saying “screw you”. I feel bad for disliking my own nephew because it’s his mother and father’s fault he behaves this way, not his.

If he’s at my house and his mother is not present he has learned that no means no and there will be real and immediate consequences for not listening. It might mean the TV goes off, something like that. I don’t believe in hitting children and think it sets a bad example as well as is bad behavior for an adult to yell, so I don’t do that either. So it’s TV off or he doesn’t get some snack later or something like that. He will still let out a whine in response. Then I comment on his whining and ask him why he whines because he’s 5 years old. I’m sure he complains to his mom and tells her everything I say and do but she isn’t going to tell me how to run my own house. I expect some degree of order, inside voices, etc and I get it.

The only time it’s tough is when his mom is present as I feel it’s her place to discipline him but know she won’t and also feel bad about implementing what I normally would do because I feel it’s her place to do so…plus he has learned that when mon’s around he is the boss and it’s fun and funny to be defiant and disrespectful towards her. His dad is the same way. He know’s I’m a counselor so one day when they were at my house the dad asked me about putting him in time out (in the bedroom alone) and deferred to me that it was OK to do this. The kid goes in the bedroom and starts SCREAMING with CRYING. Dad starts to feel guilty and feels like he needs to ‘check on him’. I pointed out that he is not physically hurt in any way, is not in danger in any way, and is yelling and screaming to avoid the punnishment. Dad hung in there for a bit but still cut the 5 minute (or whatever it was) short because the kid was screaming like a baby.

So good luck with, did you say FOUR of these kids? 4 kids who don’t listen to adults and have probably been trained over the years that they do not have to. If this is the case you’ve got a big uphill battle on your hands.

Good luck,
Bill

 

[Delaine75]

I have worked with SOOOO many families with children like this and WORSE. I’m currently caring for my sister’s kids and we have very different parenting styles and methods of discipline. For example, when I ask a child to do something, I don’t want to wait twenty minutes until they put their DS down. Or if they ask to do something and I tell them no and they do it anyway, I don’t put up with that, but my sister ignores it. It’s a difficult thing to get them to listen to me when this is not what they are used to with their mom. When I worked at one particular child care center, one of the mothers gave us strict instructions that no matter what her son did, we were not supposed to raise our voice, put him in time-out, take away any of his toys, etc. We were not allowed to do anything and it sure made things difficult!

I’d suggest sitting down with the mom and talking to her about the issues and making suggestions. Giving a kid a treat after he/she after they had to be corrected for a behavioral issue is only going to make them think that if they’re bad, they get a treat afterward! In no way under the sun is this acceptable. My prayers are with you!

 

[Regina_Love]

children thrive in a loveing disciplined environment. I would sit the kids down & tell them some basic ground rules such as;

1. No whining. If you use a whiny tone of voice I will NOT hear you! ( when it happens just say. Use your adult voice or the answer is no. Always be consistent If they continue whining demonstrate the request in a low calm adult voice. ie: “May I please have some chocolate milk”. Do Not Give them what they want until they ask respectfully in a calm voice.
2. When I ask you to do something you need to do it immediately. If you choose not to respond then what ever you are doing is gone. ( tv goes off, games is taken away, toy removed)I will ask you only once. You decide whether you want to loose the privilege of using… If they don’t listen, Never repeat yourself! Just get up camly, and act! (turn off tv,confiscate game) I usually make them do what I requested, as well as an additional chore to earn back the toy or activity.
3. Tell them, “If you choose to act ugly or pitch a fit, you will need to go to your room. When you are ready to use your good manners you may apologize, and then rejoin the family.” Never act angry or hold a grudge. Once they apologize it’s over & done. Praise them for apologizing & move on!

Always stay calm, and happy. Consider each misbehavior as a teaching opportunity. At first they will challenge you to see if you mean it! They will only believe you mean what you say if you don’t repeat yourself. Just take action when they ignore you or argue. If you are consistent, they will be much improved with in a week. Try to enjoy yourself as much as possible. :hug3:

 

[cmscms]

Thank you everyone for your responses. The reason I don’t want to talk to the mom is because I have from another lady, when it comes to her kids, it is pointless to try to get her to discipline them. And from what I have seen, I believe it. The mom just doesn’t listen. Probably where the kids get it

So that leaves me to set my rules and follow my rules. I want my rules to be reasonable (after all, no sane mother would let someone use unreasonable rules on her kids). I think I will implement my rules such as for every minute you are late to the lunch table, one minute less of TV. And if they lie to their mom and tell their mom I am being harsher than I am (which they have done), I will tell the mom my side of the story. She will either believe me and allow me my authority, or as much as it pains me to say this, I will quit.

The money is ‘nice to have’. It is a good hourly rate, but the hours are so few that it won’t be the end of the world if I quit.

I just feel I am in an akward situation because no mother wants her kids criticized. But I feel VERY disrespected when kids do not respect my authority and I honestly feel, the disrespect is not good for my self-esteem. (and that is a long story as to why and would be off topic from this thread)

CM

 

[Qwestions]

Regina Love------Great advice! It works and makes the children a joy to be around as they mature. Kudos!

cmscms------I certainly understand your feelings in regards to talking with the mother, but the pluses are greater than the minuses for doing so. Her reticence to discipline may be due to the fact that she simply doesn’t know what to do and has found that they give her less grief is she lets them pretty much rule and bribes them with treats.

Consider this: Tell her that you want to be on the same page with her in regards to the children, so that, hopefully, she’ll open up more with you than she has with previous sitters. Note that children with boundaries have an easier time as they continue to go through life, and that the discomfort and annoyance you feel, although you love the children, is felt by others who come into contact with the children, while these others, having no affection for the children, just peg them as problem children.

Ask her what problems she sees and wishes the children would change, give her your current assessment of the situation, and then try to work a plan together, where you have common goals. Point out to her how you feel when the children disrespect you and that you’re bothered when they don’t tell her the truth in order to make you look bad. See if you can get her agreement with types of discipline rewards and withdrawals that you prefer, and get her to commit to backing you up.

A “we” approach has greater impact on the kids and creates a stronger bond between you and the mother any time she thinks, “We can get Tommy to stop always creating a fuss if we…,” or, “Insisting that toys are put away before leaving the room will help keep the place from looking like a cyclone stuck.” In essence, you have to train the mother to see things your way and back up your discipline. Be sure to take Easter Joy’s advice that the children not learn to identify you as a squealer if the two of you decide to work together, unless the incident in question is of a very serious nature.

Whatever you decide upon, good luck to you. I hope that you’ll be able to find employment that will pay better and recognize your talents in the near future. My prayers are with you. Rearing children is a sacred job with sacred responsibilites.

 

[Rainaldo]

One day, the 10 year old was acting like a whiny baby because he could not find his shoes.

That’s because Mom tolerates it at home and is quick to do things for them that they can and ought to be doing for themselves. While Dad - if there is a dad around, and I’ll bet there isn’t - lets her.

My questions is ‘Is it normal for a 10 year old to misplace everything even his own shoes?’.

No, not to the degree you describe. Since this is a prudential judgment, I’m only going to say that there is a fine line between vigilance and helplessness, and if you are a total basket case as late as 3rd grade then you need some life-skills training. At this stage of development, ritualizing these behaviors works well. For example, if it were your house and your kids, and they were always losing their shoes, make a ritual of everyone taking their shoes off and putting them in the one and only place where everyone’s shoes go, on the washable throw-rug next to the radiator (think winter). You get the idea.

Also, if it is time to eat and they are just playing with their games, I am thinking of taking their game away and putting it someone they can’t find until they apologize for not co-operating.

Then post scheduled meal times on the fridge along with a cleanup rotation. Snack is served at 2, cleanup at 2:30, whether you are on time or not, and if you are not, then no snack. (You will only have to do that once.)

The problem is, knowing these kids, they will lie to their mom and probably say something like I was purposely breaking their toys. I think if the mom gets my side of the story, she will believe me but she will not discipline her kids to listen to me. One day she overheard me lecture one of the kids for hitting another one and after I was done, she gave the kid a treat. How is this kid going to learn???

Oops, in that case I recommend telling her that other responsibilities are coming your way later this month and you regret you will no longer be able to help out as of two weeks from today. What you have described is a little more serious than you seem to think, because it has the potential to become a trap.

 

[Viki63]

I would not recommend focusing too much on getting apologies for non-compliance. An apology which is forced is likely to be a joke. Focus instead on getting them to follow your rules, by having consequences.
For example, coming late to lunch is no big deal, but if they are so late that everyone has eaten and lunchtime is over, there’s no lunch. So for example, if all 4 kids don’t come when you announce lunchtime, half an hour later it’s too late.
Good luck, it’s hard with someone else’s kids. Try to keep it friendly. It’s not their fault they haven’t been raised well.

 

[EasterJoy]

Thank you everyone for your responses. The reason I don’t want to talk to the mom is because I have from another lady, when it comes to her kids, it is pointless to try to get her to discipline them. And from what I have seen, I believe it. The mom just doesn’t listen. Probably where the kids get it

So that leaves me to set my rules and follow my rules. I want my rules to be reasonable (after all, no sane mother would let someone use unreasonable rules on her kids). I think I will implement my rules such as for every minute you are late to the lunch table, one minute less of TV. And if they lie to their mom and tell their mom I am being harsher than I am (which they have done), I will tell the mom my side of the story. She will either believe me and allow me my authority, or as much as it pains me to say this, I will quit.

The money is ‘nice to have’. It is a good hourly rate, but the hours are so few that it won’t be the end of the world if I quit.

I just feel I am in an akward situation because no mother wants her kids criticized. But I feel VERY disrespected when kids do not respect my authority and I honestly feel, the disrespect is not good for my self-esteem. (and that is a long story as to why and would be off topic from this thread)

CM

You don’t have to criticize her or her children. You don’t even have to know them at all, and you don’t have to disclose whatever opinion you do have about how she does or whether she does. You may allow that this is entirely her business, because you think discipline is a parent’s perogative. Short of abuse, I think you do believe that, after all.

She only has to know up front what your rules are, what *your *consequences are, what *your *experience has been concerning getting other people’s children follow those, and get her to agree that when you are in charge, you have her support to require her children to follow your rules until she gets back. The minute she walks in the door, it will be her rules again.

If you have references from your own children or other children you have been the sitter for, that may help her. I wouldn’t concern myself about her children’s exaggerations. It is hardly likely that she’s never caught them doing it.

 

[cmscms]

cmscms------I certainly understand your feelings in regards to talking with the mother, but the pluses are greater than the minuses for doing so. Her reticence to discipline may be due to the fact that she simply doesn’t know what to do and has found that they give her less grief is she lets them pretty much rule and bribes them with treats.

In theory the pluses are greater than the minuses. But in the mom’s mind, I really don’t think she cares about that. And, I am not going to write about all her personal business (since that is not appropriate) but I am going to say I strongly think this woman is so busy she just does not have time to properly teach the children. Even if she doesn’t know what to do, I don’t think she cares to know.

As for a ‘we’ approach, I doubt she wants that. I am not with her kids long enough for her to promote me to ‘we’ status. The bit of time I am with them though is enough to drive me crazy.

I have never had kids. But if someone comes into my kitchen, no matter how polite they are, if they start telling me how to run my household, they are told in no uncertain terms to never come back. I don’t even want to think of how offended a mom would get at someone who is not a teacher of a doctor telling them what is best for a kid (and to be honest, I would see her point if she got mad at me for criticizing her parenting skills since that is not my place)

CM

 

[Bill_7154]

Another tool that is very under utilized with children (and adults) is providing positive verbal reinforcement for positive behavior.

“Your on time for lunch for the 2nd day in a row! That’s great, good job” Don’t overdo it or they may think your a nut job but this is easy to do, works very well too.

So by immediately consequencing without repeating yourself when they do wrong/don’t listen and praising them when they do right and do listen you have the basic tools you need (and make sure mom knows your plans and is in agreement IMO).

 

[cmscms]

Another tool that is very under utilized with children (and adults) is providing positive verbal reinforcement for positive behavior.

I do try to do that however I find it exhausting when I constantly thank them for little things they should just know to do. Perhaps a way to show I am happy without thanking them is when they arrive on time pay them a compliment like ‘cool shirt’ or something to make them glad they are at the table

 

[EasterJoy]

In theory the pluses are greater than the minuses. But in the mom’s mind, I really don’t think she cares about that. And, I am not going to write about all her personal business (since that is not appropriate) but I am going to say I strongly think this woman is so busy she just does not have time to properly teach the children. Even if she doesn’t know what to do, I don’t think she cares to know.

As for a ‘we’ approach, I doubt she wants that. I am not with her kids long enough for her to promote me to ‘we’ status. The bit of time I am with them though is enough to drive me crazy.

I have never had kids. But if someone comes into my kitchen, no matter how polite they are, if they start telling me how to run my household, they are told in no uncertain terms to never come back. I don’t even want to think of how offended a mom would get at someone who is not a teacher of a doctor telling them what is best for a kid (and to be honest, I would see her point if she got mad at me for criticizing her parenting skills since that is not my place)

CM

I don’t think Mary Poppins or Maria von Trapp or most governesses had children of their own. That’s why they could be governesses. Either you get the authority to govern and a set of rules of governance that you can live with, or no deal. Life is too short.

You’re right not to give unsolicited advice about child-rearing. You have every right to have your own rules of engagement. This is not rules for her kitchen but rules for when you are caring for a child. No offense to her, but you get to decide the conditions under which you will take care of someone else’s kids, based on your own temperament and your own limits. If you can accomodate so that the rules are mutually agreeable, you are in business. The rules do not have to be the same ones she has when she’s there. Again: the rules at home and the rules at school are different, and kids cope with that just fine.

If the situation drives you nuts, you don’t have to resign dramatically. You can just say, “I’m sorry, but your kids exhaust me. You’re going to have to find someone else who is a better fit. I’m sorry it didn’t work out; I hope we can still be on good terms.” When she says “what do you mean, ‘a better fit’?” you can say, “Your kids and my rules were not a good match. I’m not giving way on my rules, so it makes sense that you need to find a different caretaker. This didn’t work out.”

(Note: When you’re working with her kids, you talk about your time with her kids in the present tense. When you quit, you talk about your experience with her kids in the past tense. Don’t budge from that. Once you get a foot out the door, keep it there.)

 

[faithfully]

IMO (actually guess)… You probably don’t have a full picture of what’s going on in their life. You recognize that she’s very busy. Whether that’s appropriate for her or not, it’s likely she’s getting all that she can done.

She’s seemingly decided which battles, if any, she’s willing to deal with. And perhaps they are not the ones you would choose.

Personally, I wouldn’t allow my children to be rude, or do what those children do to you. The mother probably does let the kids steam roll her, so I guess she sees no reason you deserve better treatment than she does.

That said. Since you’re willing to quit, I’d probably walk in for your next visit, call the mom in and hold a little conference with all of them. Tell them you have some ground rules while you’re there. They need to respond, get prepared for anything they are leaving for. Enough with the whining already, and come when it’s time. Whatever little chores they need. If they can’t behave, then you have to leave. Inform them there will be no warnings. Just one announcement.

Then do it. Let mom deal with the behavior.

Children can be very stressful to deal with. You’re not dealing with totally rational people. They have their wants and desires, and they just don’t get it a lot. They’ll figure it out when things don’t go their way.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

You need to sit down with the mother and discuss this with her. Ask her how much and what kind of discipline she feels is appropriate for YOU to implement. What kinds of rewards/punishments can you use? What can you NEVER use? Explain your boundaries with these kids to her. Even if she is being negligent (is she divorced, never married, or is the dad present and how does HE discipline?) YOU cannot become their parent. What you can do is tell her that their unacceptable behavior will be unacceptable in future environments such as school and work.

Some people really don’t have the temperaments to even BE parents, God forbid they get a willful, stubborn, persistent child…A very bad combo. Maybe this mom is just too mild a person to do any discipline whatsoever.

But you MUST discuss the issue with her, or risk being fired because you crossed a line with the kids without knowing it was there.