Disconnect between Protestants and Catholics

[Cat]

Something to ruminate about when you are waiting several hours at the Department of Motor Vehicles to have your license renewed.

I am a convert to Catholicism from evangelical Protestantism. (April 10, 2004–coming up on five years now, praise God!)

Earlier in the week, I read a thread on CAF extolling the benefits and joys of drinking alcohol.

I read another thread condemning the use of “rock music” in the Holy Mass and indeed, condemning any kind of musical concert in the Presence of Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament even outside of the Holy Mass.

At that point, my brain snapped.

I realized that this is a perfect example of why Protestant churches and the Catholic Church often don’t get along, and why the two will probably never be unified in spite of all our prayers.

All my life, I was taught that drinking alcohol is a sin. I still believe that drinking alcohol is usually a sin. Sorry to all who have tried to convince me otherwise. I don’t believe you.

All my life, I was taught that praising the Lord through music, any kind of music, is good and proper. I still believe that the Lord loves ALL music styles and instruments, including ROCK music, and that He doesn’t object to any style of music in the Holy Mass. Sorry to all who have tried to convince me otherwise. I don’t believe you.

I am thrilled to be home in the Catholic Church, but I confess that I will probably NEVER be able to make the switch and embrace a culture that extolls alcohol use, but condemns the use of various musical styles in the Mass or in the Presence of Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament.

Since my brain snapped, I can’t even give intellectual assent to such things. I believe what my conscience tells me–alcohol, bad. Music, good.

I am Catholic and I am glad to be Catholic. Nothing else matters but Christ.

But now that I have seen these two threads and my brain has snapped, I have come to realize that I will always be outside of Catholic “culture.” And since I am also outside of evangelical Protestant culture, I will not have a lot of company on this earth. I feel like the lepers in the Gospel passage a few weeks ago–“Unclean!” Outside of the camp, both camps.

I only hope my husband and I die at the same time–probably at a Christian rock concert when a drunk driver plows into the audience.

Now go out and enjoy your renewed driver’s license! Or are you STILL waiting in the line?

 

[Hesychios]

Something to ruminate about when you are waiting several hours at the Department of Motor Vehicles to have your license renewed.

I am a convert to Catholicism from evangelical Protestantism. (April 10, 2004–coming up on five years now, praise God!)

Earlier in the week, I read a thread on CAF extolling the benefits and joys of drinking alcohol.

I read another thread condemning the use of “rock music” in the Holy Mass and indeed, condemning any kind of musical concert in the Presence of Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament even outside of the Holy Mass.

At that point, my brain snapped.

I realized that this is a perfect example of why Protestant churches and the Catholic Church often don’t get along, and why the two will probably never be unified in spite of all our prayers.

All my life, I was taught that drinking alcohol is a sin. I still believe that drinking alcohol is usually a sin. Sorry to all who have tried to convince me otherwise. I don’t believe you.

All my life, I was taught that praising the Lord through music, any kind of music, is good and proper. I still believe that the Lord loves ALL music styles and instruments, including ROCK music, and that He doesn’t object to any style of music in the Holy Mass. Sorry to all who have tried to convince me otherwise. I don’t believe you.

I am thrilled to be home in the Catholic Church, but I confess that I will probably NEVER be able to make the switch and embrace a culture that extolls alcohol use, but condemns the use of various musical styles in the Mass or in the Presence of Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament.

Since my brain snapped, I can’t even give intellectual assent to such things. I believe what my conscience tells me–alcohol, bad. Music, good.

I am Catholic and I am glad to be Catholic. Nothing else matters but Christ.

But now that I have seen these two threads and my brain has snapped, I have come to realize that I will always be outside of Catholic “culture.” And since I am also outside of evangelical Protestant culture, I will not have a lot of company on this earth. I feel like the lepers in the Gospel passage a few weeks ago–“Unclean!” Outside of the camp, both camps.

I only hope my husband and I die at the same time–probably at a Christian rock concert when a drunk driver plows into the audience.

Now go out and enjoy your renewed driver’s license! Or are you STILL waiting in the line?

Goodpost.

What you have stated here needs to be said, if for no other reason than to educate the rest of us to your perspective. That has it’s own intrinsic value.

I did not read the threads you refer to, but keep in mind that there are a lot of young people posting here who do not really know how to defend their faith properly, so when they are confronted by a criticism they don’t know how to handle they try to spin it. And, of course, anyone can see through that.

Like the alcohol issue, instead of merely explaining how it is not considered a sin if used in moderation, some people may try to extol the “virtues of rum” and just sound silly.

Please do not take everything you read here as representative of the thinking of Apostolic Christianity, or a Catholic mindset. It is often enough more representative of the personalities of denizens of the internet. :takeoff:

 

[chris_molter]

sounds like you’re experiencing a culture clash between Evangelicalism and Catholicism. Well… traditional Catholicism, anyway…

 

[Christy_Beth]

Coming from a protestant background, I also have a problem with the idea of alcoholic drinks outside of mass. But I don’t think it’s all related to church teachings. Some of it is of a more personal type matter. Beer at a party, wine with a meal. These things may not be bad, I just feel really uncomfortable with it.

 

[Love_is_Patient]

All my life, I was taught that drinking alcohol is a sin. I still believe that drinking alcohol is usually a sin. Sorry to all who have tried to convince me otherwise. I don’t believe you.

All my life, I was taught that praising the Lord through music, any kind of music, is good and proper. I still believe that the Lord loves ALL music styles and instruments, including ROCK music, and that He doesn’t object to any style of music in the Holy Mass. Sorry to all who have tried to convince me otherwise. I don’t believe you.

I am thrilled to be home in the Catholic Church, but I confess that I will probably NEVER be able to make the switch and embrace a culture that extolls alcohol use, but condemns the use of various musical styles in the Mass or in the Presence of Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament.

Since my brain snapped, I can’t even give intellectual assent to such things. I believe what my conscience tells me–alcohol, bad. Music, good.

Sorry you’re feeling so alone. I’m afraid, growing up in a culture where moderate use of alcohol was normal, I’ll never be able to believe that alcohol is sinful. But I do understand that it bothers people who have been taught the opposite. Perhaps this is an area where Catholics and Protestants and former-Protestants-who-are-now-Catholic are just going to have to practice some charitable tolerance?

Love is Patient

 

[chris_molter]

I still believe that the Lord loves ALL music styles and instruments, including ROCK music, and that He doesn’t object to any style of music in the Holy Mass. Sorry to all who have tried to convince me otherwise. I don’t believe you.

Oh, and from this, I’m getting the impression that you don’t understand the difference between the Mass and a typical protestant Sunday worship service. There’s darn good reasons why the Church has particular proscriptions regarding the music for her liturgies.

This is not to say that more contemporary Christian music has no place in Catholic life, but the Church gets to decide what’s appropriate for Mass.

You don’t have to “believe me”. You can go ahead and read what the Church teaches…

1. The Church acknowledges Gregorian chant as specially suited to the Roman liturgy: therefore, other things being equal, it should be given pride of place in liturgical services.

But other kinds of sacred music, especially polyphony, are by no means excluded from liturgical celebrations, so long as they accord with the spirit of the liturgical action, as laid down in Art. 30.

1. In the Latin Church the pipe organ is to be held in high esteem, for it is the traditional musical instrument which adds a wonderful splendor to the Church’s ceremonies and powerfully lifts up man’s mind to God and to higher things.

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19631204_sacrosanctum-concilium_en.html

 

[cthulhubryan]

Very good. I know that when I wait in line at the DMV I seem to hear loud noises and the wait makes me crave a drink

 

[ralphinal]

I think that there are several things at work here, and none of them are your fault, or even bad.

First, you rightly cite your background. There is no issue with forgoing alcohol. There is no issue with thinking all music can be done to the glory of God.

Second, people from the Catholic side may not be clear. Alcohol is not perfect and it CAN be a sin to drink, even in small amounts. To say that your life is better with it is false. Your life may be worse. The music is another issue. To many Catholics, we see more and more people trying to make the mass into something that it is not: focused on the Music and not the actual mass. Further, many of the songs stink to high heaven and may in fact be heretical.

Third, the Catholic must ALWAYS understand that the Blessed Sacrament is JESUS HIMSELF. By turning the sanctuary into a concert hall, you remove the focus from Jesus and place it elsewhere. It is not impossible to reserve the Blessed Sacrament in another place if the space is needed for an event.

I hope this helps.

 

[Cat]

chris molter, what does this mean? (boldface mine)

“But other kinds of sacred music, especially polyphony, are by no means excluded from liturgical celebrations, so long as they accord with the spirit of the liturgical action, as laid down in Art. 30.”

What does this mean?

To me, it means that ALL styles of music can be used in the Holy Mass as long as they are “sacred,” and as long as they are in accord with the spirit of the liturgical action."

Am I wrong? Prove it.

And yes, I do understand the differences between the Mass and the Protestant worship service. When an evangelical Protestant becomes a Catholic, they study excessively almost to a fault. Evangelical Protestantism is all about study and learning and facts and justifying everything. It’s not the emotional Protestantism that you may have encountered. An Evangelical Protestant authored the “fact-faith-feeling” train analogy, and I still believe it even more strongly now that I am Catholic.

My husband and I spent almost 4 years reading apologetics material, attending Catholic seminars and classes, going to Mass, and of course, reading the Catechism and Bible, before making the decision to become Catholic. With humility, I would say that we probably know more than most cradle Catholics about our faith. Just yesterday at work, a co-worker asked what Ash Wednesday was all about. ALL the other Catholics stood there saying nothing. I finally spoke up and explained it to her, using not only historical facts, but the BIble, pointing out passages in the Old and New Testament. She was glad to get the information.

Oh, yes, I know the difference between Mass and worship service.

 

[BrianH]

Okay I do not want to detract from a very good thread. But why exactly would certain forms of music detract from the Eucharist again?
There IS music.
But only a CERTAIN kind of music does not detract?
Explain this one.
You are right about the cultural difference. I feel that way all the time and my kids have noticed with our Catholic relatives.

 

[LutheranDK]

All my life, I was taught that drinking alcohol is a sin. I still believe that drinking alcohol is usually a sin. Sorry to all who have tried to convince me otherwise. I don’t believe you.

I’m not going to try to convince you otherwise, then. I would, however, like to know your reasoning for making that statement? Especially in light of how wine can be used as a positive symbol in the Bible; a symbol of blessing (and the fact that Jesus upon Mary’s request produced about 470 liters of wine for a wedding in Cana )

 

[LUISV]

chris molter, what does this mean? (boldface mine)

“But other kinds of sacred music, especially polyphony, are by no means excluded from liturgical celebrations, so long as they accord with the spirit of the liturgical action, as laid down in Art. 30.”

What does this mean?

To me, it means that ALL styles of music can be used in the Holy Mass as long as they are “sacred,” and as long as they are in accord with the spirit of the liturgical action."

Am I wrong? Prove it.

There is nothing to prove. The “sacred” is subjective. Each bishop gets to decide how wide he is willing to define the term. I started life in Los Angeles under Timothy Cardinal Manning, God rest his soul. He was tough and very traditional. Under Cardinal Mahoney what is considered sacred has been a bit hard to define. The Archdoices website is interesting to read. Think of an ethnic group and you will find a parish that is centric to it. Every one has the freedom to make the liturgy there own. There was a large charismatic movement in the 80’s that brought into the Church music that I to this date do not consider appropriate or particularly spiritual. But is it wrong? No. If the parish finds a particular kind of music condusive to worship then it will not offend the Lord. Culture dictates the sacred. My mom would wake me up early to make 6am mass. Not to get an early start but to hear the mariachi band choir. Grgorian chant they were not. But at no time did they detract or distract from the Sacrafice of the Mass.

 

[Austringer]

All my life, I was taught that drinking alcohol is a sin. I still believe that drinking alcohol is usually a sin. Sorry to all who have tried to convince me otherwise. I don’t believe you.

As another poster has already put it, all my life I was taught that moderate alcohol use is not a sin. Jesus would appear to agree, as otherwise He would have been leading the whole wedding party at Cana into sin by changing the water into wine, and He and His apostles drank wine at the Last Supper.

As for music, I think it is important to understand that music has a language of its own regardless of what the lyrics might say. Rock music has its own language. Sacred music has its own language. The two languages are completely different, regardless of what words are used. What is your basis for thinking they are the same, and what is your basis for thinking that all music is appropriate for Mass? If you would agree (and I’m sure you would) that strip-tease music would be out of place, then you are agreeing that NOT all music would be appropriate.

The Mass is not entertainment, it is worship.

 

[josie_L]

Something to ruminate about when you are waiting several hours at the Department of Motor Vehicles to have your license renewed.

I am a convert to Catholicism from evangelical Protestantism. (April 10, 2004–coming up on five years now, praise God!)

Earlier in the week, I read a thread on CAF extolling the benefits and joys of drinking alcohol.

I read another thread condemning the use of “rock music” in the Holy Mass and indeed, condemning any kind of musical concert in the Presence of Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament even outside of the Holy Mass.

At that point, my brain snapped.

I realized that this is a perfect example of why Protestant churches and the Catholic Church often don’t get along, and why the two will probably never be unified in spite of all our prayers.

All my life, I was taught that drinking alcohol is a sin. I still believe that drinking alcohol is usually a sin. Sorry to all who have tried to convince me otherwise. I don’t believe you.

All my life, I was taught that praising the Lord through music, any kind of music, is good and proper. I still believe that the Lord loves ALL music styles and instruments, including ROCK music, and that He doesn’t object to any style of music in the Holy Mass. Sorry to all who have tried to convince me otherwise. I don’t believe you.

I am thrilled to be home in the Catholic Church, but I confess that I will probably NEVER be able to make the switch and embrace a culture that extolls alcohol use, but condemns the use of various musical styles in the Mass or in the Presence of Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament.

Since my brain snapped, I can’t even give intellectual assent to such things. I believe what my conscience tells me–alcohol, bad. Music, good.

I am Catholic and I am glad to be Catholic. Nothing else matters but Christ.

But now that I have seen these two threads and my brain has snapped, I have come to realize that I will always be outside of Catholic “culture.” And since I am also outside of evangelical Protestant culture, I will not have a lot of company on this earth. I feel like the lepers in the Gospel passage a few weeks ago–“Unclean!” Outside of the camp, both camps.

I only hope my husband and I die at the same time–probably at a Christian rock concert when a drunk driver plows into the audience.

Now go out and enjoy your renewed driver’s license! Or are you STILL waiting in the line?

I am not a teetotaler (not sure I spelt it right), nor am I a drunkard, but I do like a drink or two on occasion (especially since Italians are known for making their own wine). When you state that there are some posters who extol the virtues of alcohol. do you mean the kind like “hey did you know that a glass of wine a day is good for your heart,” if that is the case then they are correct. This has been verified by medical studies. Also, I kind of agree with not having rock music during mass, it’s sort of inappropriate. Just think of someone wearing a short skirt for Mass, that too is inappropriate as well as irreverant. God Bless.

P.S. I am a big fan of rock music.

 

[pismopal]

If you go fishing and decide to take along your Baptist friend…you must take along another Baptist because if you only take one he will drink all your beer.
Kind of a joke but actually a comment on the attitude of some regarding alcoholic beverages. Most Catholics (I am a convert from the Baptist denom) have an honest approach to drinking. It can be a sin but is not necessarilly. My last Baptist minister said that he did not believe that Christ drank wine. His words flew in the face of the Bible that he purported to believe…literally…to the last word but he did not see the contradiction…oh well. Some of us cannot free ourselves from the things we learned as children and are prisoners to them.

 

[musicality]

All my life, I was taught that drinking alcohol is a sin. I still believe that drinking alcohol is usually a sin. Sorry to all who have tried to convince me otherwise. I don’t believe you.

I’m just not sure how you reconcile that statement with the story of the Wedding at Cana (when Jesus changes water to wine).

Other than that, I agree with what you are saying. There is often a disconnect among denominations over disagreements of very small matters–matters that aren’t as great in magnitude as something like the Eucharist. Its really too bad, and I’m not entirely sure what to do about it.

 

[BrianH]

It is only anecdotal and I suspect the OP would agree…
it is not my experience that the Catholic culture (ie the 200 or so Catholics I probably have known well enough in my life to comment on an extremely accurate personal level) extol the benefits of moderation.
I wonder why when we discuss alcohol it is always about wine and not things with greater alcohol content and those dangers…

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Okay I do not want to detract from a very good thread. But why exactly would certain forms of music detract from the Eucharist again?
There IS music.
But only a CERTAIN kind of music does not detract?
Explain this one.
You are right about the cultural difference. I feel that way all the time and my kids have noticed with our Catholic relatives.

Certain sorts of music, & musical instrument, have been thought appropriate to the character of the Liturgy, while others have been frowned on. Pius X & other other Popes legislated on the subject; as did various Councils.​

 

[Cat]

Okay I do not want to detract from a very good thread. But why exactly would certain forms of music detract from the Eucharist again?
There IS music.
But only a CERTAIN kind of music does not detract?
Explain this one.
You are right about the cultural difference. I feel that way all the time and my kids have noticed with our Catholic relatives.

I’m glad you think it’s a very good thread. I fear that many will think it’s just another ex-Protestant trying to keep one foot in the Protestant door and one foot in the Catholic door.

And maybe that’s true.

 

[Cat]

I’m not going to try to convince you otherwise, then. I would, however, like to know your reasoning for making that statement? Especially in light of how wine can be used as a positive symbol in the Bible; a symbol of blessing (and the fact that Jesus upon Mary’s request produced about 470 liters of wine for a wedding in Cana )

I would prefer not to turn this thread into a discussion of why alcohol is perfectly OK and why rock music in Mass is an abomination. There are plenty of other threads about that.

This thread is about disconnects between Protestants and Catholics and whether or not they can ever be resolved, and what that resolution means in real life. In my real life, it means no close friendships with anyone except my husband and family. I just can’t feel at home in either Evangelical Protestant or Catholic church culture anymore.

And the reasons for the wrongness of alcohol are not MY personal reasoning. It’s the reasoning of the churches and demoninations and pastors and teachers and dear brothers and sisters in Christ and MY PARENTS and my entire family for many generations back on my father’s side.