Disconnect between Protestants and Catholics

[Cat]

If you go fishing and decide to take along your Baptist friend…you must take along another Baptist because if you only take one he will drink all your beer.
Kind of a joke but actually a comment on the attitude of some regarding alcoholic beverages. Most Catholics (I am a convert from the Baptist denom) have an honest approach to drinking. It can be a sin but is not necessarilly. My last Baptist minister said that he did not believe that Christ drank wine. His words flew in the face of the Bible that he purported to believe…literally…to the last word but he did not see the contradiction…oh well. Some of us cannot free ourselves from the things we learned as children and are prisoners to them.

Protestants drinking was never my experience, and I lived and loved and worked and breathed among Evangelical Protestant churches and Christians for 47 years.

We did not drink alcohol, ever, not even a “glass of wine” at dinner, ever, and we had an awful lot of fun together. I miss that.

As for freeing ourselves from the things we learned as children, I would say that the same thing is true of Catholics who were taught as children that drinking is OK, and that rock music in church is unacceptable.

 

[chris_molter]

As for freeing ourselves from the things we learned as children, I would say that the same thing is true of Catholics who were taught as children that drinking is OK, and that rock music in church is unacceptable.

Ultimately, it doesn’t matter what we think. It matters what the Church teaches. If the Church teaches it’s ok to have a drink or two, then it’s ok. Period. If the Church teaches that chant, polyphony and the organ have pride of place in the Mass, then that’s how it goes.

If the Church decides tomorrow to ban chant and organ music and mandates jazz trios or happy clappy praise music for the Mass, then, fine. I won’t be happy about it, but my personal preferences must take back seat to what the Church, in her 2000 years of wisdom, tells us.

To me, it means that ALL styles of music can be used in the Holy Mass as long as they are “sacred,” and as long as they are in accord with the spirit of the liturgical action

First prove that rock is “sacred” and “in accord with the spirit of the liturgical action” (i.e. Mass, not a praise concert or worship service). Oh, and before you do, here’s a bit from Musicam Sacram:

1. In permitting and using musical instruments, the culture and traditions of individual peoples must be taken into account. **However, those instruments which are, by common opinion and use, suitable for secular music only, are to be altogether prohibited from every liturgical celebration and from popular devotions.**44

Any musical instrument permitted in divine worship should be used in such a way that it meets the needs of the liturgical celebration, and is in the interests both of the beauty of worship and the edification of the faithful.

 

[Austringer]

Protestants drinking was never my experience, and I lived and loved and worked and breathed among Evangelical Protestant churches and Christians for 47 years.

One of the first Evangelicals I ever came across (the kind who would walk up to strangers and ask them if they had accpeted Jesus Christ as their personal Saviour) was also fond of good wine and speciality beer. His wife, also an Evangelical, also drank, though in moderation. Most of their Evangelical friends that I was introduced to also drank. So, I suppose it all dpends on what kind of Evangelical we’re discussing. Some of these things may be affected by region: I live in the Midwest, and I grew up with the understanding that very few Protestant sects did not drink – that was the case around here, or so it seemed.

Cat, you don’t address the changing of the water into wine at Cana. Please answer: if drinking were sinful, why did Jesus lead these into sin by His actions? Why does He not tell them, “Go and sin no more”, as He daid to others? Why, if drinking were sinful, did Jesus and His Apostles drink wine?

Anyway, I know you said that you did not want this to be a discussion of the merits of drinking, but rather one of the differences between Catholic and Protestant culture: I would answer that it’s only SOME Protestant cultures that regard drinking as sinful. It’s a minority culture, and so I don’t think it’s that big of a deal.

If yourhink that rock music is just the same as other music in terms of its suitability for the Liturgy, there’s not much I can say as I don’t think we can understand each other. Not all music is equal to the task of elevating our thoughts and spirits to the transcendant, and by this I mean the music, not the lyrics.

 

[Contarini]

Something to ruminate about when you are waiting several hours at the Department of Motor Vehicles to have your license renewed.

I am a convert to Catholicism from evangelical Protestantism. (April 10, 2004–coming up on five years now, praise God!)

Earlier in the week, I read a thread on CAF extolling the benefits and joys of drinking alcohol.

I read another thread condemning the use of “rock music” in the Holy Mass and indeed, condemning any kind of musical concert in the Presence of Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament even outside of the Holy Mass.

At that point, my brain snapped.

I realized that this is a perfect example of why Protestant churches and the Catholic Church often don’t get along, and why the two will probably never be unified in spite of all our prayers.

All my life, I was taught that drinking alcohol is a sin. I still believe that drinking alcohol is usually a sin. Sorry to all who have tried to convince me otherwise. I don’t believe you.

All my life, I was taught that praising the Lord through music, any kind of music, is good and proper. I still believe that the Lord loves ALL music styles and instruments, including ROCK music, and that He doesn’t object to any style of music in the Holy Mass. Sorry to all who have tried to convince me otherwise. I don’t believe you.

I am thrilled to be home in the Catholic Church, but I confess that I will probably NEVER be able to make the switch and embrace a culture that extolls alcohol use, but condemns the use of various musical styles in the Mass or in the Presence of Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament.

Since my brain snapped, I can’t even give intellectual assent to such things. I believe what my conscience tells me–alcohol, bad. Music, good.

I am Catholic and I am glad to be Catholic. Nothing else matters but Christ.

But now that I have seen these two threads and my brain has snapped, I have come to realize that I will always be outside of Catholic “culture.” And since I am also outside of evangelical Protestant culture, I will not have a lot of company on this earth. I feel like the lepers in the Gospel passage a few weeks ago–“Unclean!” Outside of the camp, both camps.

I only hope my husband and I die at the same time–probably at a Christian rock concert when a drunk driver plows into the audience.

Now go out and enjoy your renewed driver’s license! Or are you STILL waiting in the line?

Well, I grew up in a conservative evangelical culture where rock music and alcohol were both bad, for many of the same reasons. I no longer consider either of them to be necessarily bad. I agree that the concrete evils of alcohol abuse dwarf anything that can be laid to the door of rock music, but I also see more intrinsic value in alcohol than in rock. (A lot depends on what kind of rock we are talking about, too.)

There is nothing wrong with abstaining from alcohol as a personal or communal ascetic discipline. I currently teach at an evangelical college where the use of alcohol is forbidden, and I’m fine with that. (I’d rather the rule was lifted, but it’s not a big deal.) However, your insistence that you just think alcohol is wrong and nothing will change your mind seems unreasonable. In the absence of arguments, ought you to cling so tightly to the prejudices of your particular religious heritage? Why are you so sure that your prejudices are correct in this particular instance?

Edwin

 

[Publisher]

As I grew older I “overcame” my inhibition with drinking…I love a good rum and coke…and I adore a good bottle of wine…and on a hot afternoon, I love a cold crisp beer.

I was way into my late twenties before I ever went to a bar…I went with people who were going to the bar for lunch…they had a great buffet…we weren’t going to drink but to eat…however my upbringing caused quite a bit of anxiety since I was going to an establishment which sold alchoholic beverages as their primary source of income, plus there was drinking and smoking going on at lunch time…just not from my co-workers.

Many members of the Society of Friends do not drink…these days there is not too much of a prohibition against drinking as long as one doesn’t get drunk…the Evangelical Friends still prohibit alchohol consumption…when I went to George Fox College some thirty years ago we had to sign a pledge we would not drink, smoke, dance or go to movies…

It is a very difficult cultural/religious issue to overcome…it causes guilt and fear…it took me several years to get over my fears of alchohol consumption…now I like nothing better than a good wine with a steak dinner.

 

[allhers]

Well, I am Catholic and while I don’t drink alcohol, I don’t mind if others do. I believe in moderation it is perfectly acceptable, I just don’t happen to like the taste of any of it and don’t see the need to drink it.

I also don’t think that “rock music” in the Holy Mass or any other kind of musical concert in the Presence of Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament (even outside of the Holy Mass) is ever necessary.

I’ve heard some rock music that does indeed glorify the Lord, it just isn’t appropriate at Mass or in His Real Presence in the Catholic Church. I am just not a fan of rock music, it isn’t something that I grew up with and I doubt that I will ever really enjoy it. (Not that there wasn’t rock when I grew up, just that we never listened to it while I was growing up.) When I was a tennager I never liked it much. It use to make me feel like a dark presence was lurking in it. (like satan was in the music.) Unless of course it was rock music that was being played to the Lord, but even then, I didn’t like the music itself, just the words that were being sung to HIM.

I like our traditional hymns and chants at Mass and when someone plays or sings the Ave Maria in a most beautiful way I am often transported to heaven on earth. I seriously doubt that I would ever feel that way about any rock music.

 

[manualman]

Hi Cat,

Having been immersed in evangelicalism for 4 years in college I can relate to your perspective! Keep your eyes open for other converts. Not only are they often the best catholics, they are nice to sit next to at mass because they usually SING!

I saw sentiments similar to an earlier poster, people who wouldn’t drink around other christians WOULD among those they considered just pagans. weird.

I think on the catholic front there is a tension regarding music. On the one hand, music is an entirely cultural thing and the nature of worship music is a matter of culture. On the other hand, there IS a catholic cultural heritage in music that is tremendously rich and currently in severe danger of being lost. I think this danger is the real cause of opposition to ‘pop’ type music replacing classical catholic liturgical music. Why replace fine wine with grape juice? (Oops! Bad analogy in present company!)

 

[pismopal]

Protestants drinking was never my experience, and I lived and loved and worked and breathed among Evangelical Protestant churches and Christians for 47 years.

We did not drink alcohol, ever, not even a “glass of wine” at dinner, ever, and we had an awful lot of fun together. I miss that.

As for freeing ourselves from the things we learned as children, I would say that the same thing is true of Catholics who were taught as children that drinking is OK, and that rock music in church is unacceptable.

You thought the remark about what we learn as children was directed at Protestants?? Wow… now that is interesting. Now about the drinking issue and having wine at dinner. In a well known culture having wine at dinner during certain times was called “Passover” and Jesus drank wine with meals wherever he could it seems and I don’t think it was to “have a good time.”
I don’t know anything about your personal experience but mine was extensive among protestants as I was one among all my family and friends and I tell you that drinking was almost universal. Just as universal was the attempt to conceal it by never drinking around others who were in your church group and positively never in a church setting. This might explain your belief that your evangelical friends"never drank". Let the readers decide where the truth lies. Perception is not always reality.

 

[Randy_Carson]

I’m just wondering out loud…

What is the difference between an individual declaring that drinking alcohol is a sin when the Church has not defined it to be so and declaring that artificial birth control is not sinful when the Church has stated that it is?

On the one hand, the person who denies that birth control is intrinsically evil commits a sin every time they contracept while the person who abstains from alcohol because they feel it is sinful commits no sin whatsoever by not drinking.

On the other hand, the cafeteria Catholic is picking and choosing among Church teachings while the tee-totaller Catholic is bringing a bag lunch of their favorite snacks to the banquet…

 

[Bennie_P]

Something to ruminate about when you are waiting several hours at the Department of Motor Vehicles to have your license renewed.

I am a convert to Catholicism from evangelical Protestantism. (April 10, 2004–coming up on five years now, praise God!)

Earlier in the week, I read a thread on CAF extolling the benefits and joys of drinking alcohol.

I read another thread condemning the use of “rock music” in the Holy Mass and indeed, condemning any kind of musical concert in the Presence of Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament even outside of the Holy Mass.

At that point, my brain snapped.

I realized that this is a perfect example of why Protestant churches and the Catholic Church often don’t get along, and why the two will probably never be unified in spite of all our prayers.

All my life, I was taught that drinking alcohol is a sin. I still believe that drinking alcohol is usually a sin. Sorry to all who have tried to convince me otherwise. I don’t believe you.

All my life, I was taught that praising the Lord through music, any kind of music, is good and proper. I still believe that the Lord loves ALL music styles and instruments, including ROCK music, and that He doesn’t object to any style of music in the Holy Mass. Sorry to all who have tried to convince me otherwise. I don’t believe you.

I am thrilled to be home in the Catholic Church, but I confess that I will probably NEVER be able to make the switch and embrace a culture that extolls alcohol use, but condemns the use of various musical styles in the Mass or in the Presence of Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament.

Since my brain snapped, I can’t even give intellectual assent to such things. I believe what my conscience tells me–alcohol, bad. Music, good.

I am Catholic and I am glad to be Catholic. Nothing else matters but Christ.

But now that I have seen these two threads and my brain has snapped, I have come to realize that I will always be outside of Catholic “culture.” And since I am also outside of evangelical Protestant culture, I will not have a lot of company on this earth. I feel like the lepers in the Gospel passage a few weeks ago–“Unclean!” Outside of the camp, both camps.

I only hope my husband and I die at the same time–probably at a Christian rock concert when a drunk driver plows into the audience.

Now go out and enjoy your renewed driver’s license! Or are you STILL waiting in the line?

You’re not alone, I have felt lately caught between two worlds also, but I know I made the right choice in coming into full communion. My personal choice on music is little different than yours though I don’t believe Christian rock is sinful, and enjoy listening to it on the radio, but it makes me uneasy to be in a concert setting. This is likely because I use to be really big into going to rock concerts and getting high and that setting triggers some of the bad feelings, emotions, of a very bad time in my life and sometimes I get a cast of evil feelings over my being, Satan really teases me concerning my past and weaknesses. But it isn’t something I would deny others to enjoy. I really have trouble listening to secular/pop music all together in any setting. Too much of the older stuff will trigger memories of days I use to get stone, sort like flash backs.

I feel funny too about alcohol consumption, for I believe many don’t realize how thin the line is between enough and abuse. But again I would not deny the pleasure to others that can cut it off before they have too much.

But I don’t feel unclean, not one bit, but I do feel like I unable to express my joy in Christ, and my choice coming into full communion, the Body and Blood is the most important aspect of worship for me and I feel sometimes neither camp has a full understanding of what that means to me.

It is in a lot of ways like I felt when I was a non-Catholic and I accepted Christ in to my life, no one seemed to understand the joy I felt. Then when I committed all the way with coming into full-communion, I still think most everyone has trouble understanding. Can’t win there…

I still associate with some of my evangelical friends but it is not the same, and I find myself defining which of my Catholic brothers and sisters are just “cultural” Catholics and the ones that in the ever going process of conversion.

My faith in Christ has never been stronger, but I feel the little flashes of His presence, moments I call my presence or glimpses into eternity, (I know it sounds crazy but it is something like those moments St. Teresa writes about) are further apart. But all doubt as to my purpose has been swept away.

 

[BrianH]

No I do not think you will reconcile it. We eat with my oldest brother and his family about once a year because we live so far away. Often my other brother and his family will join us. They have both Catholic converts married to Catholic women. My son has made several comments. He notices the differences. I have never once made a sterotypical comment…he picked it up on his own. They are almost two different cultures is probably the best way to think about it when it comes to certain things. I am sorry things are tough for you.