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Jegudiel
Guest
Why would you even bring something like this up in this context?
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thomas_jd
Guest
Code:
A pastor, beginning his term at a parish, is instructed to move slowly.Some never bring about the changes that are needed, that they inherited from a former pastor.
This may be helpful. Think of you and your family as the permanent residents of the parish that will be attending mass long after the current administrations term.
Resign from the council, keep a low profile and lastly, offer it up!
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Daralharb
Guest
Under this line of thinking, the “additions”(abuses?) should not have been instituted in the first place.
The man holds a lay position in his parish. He’s not on Holy Orders, nor does he have any responsibility to his pastor in leaving or staying.
If he wants to drive to a completely differ diocese, much less parish, to be spiritually fed, maybe the pastor will get the message. The Catholic Church isn’t the parish. Le the parish spiritually burn to the ground if they won’t listen. No one says he has to stand in the fire losing fingerprints to the rosary. No one has an obligation to be exposed to that which amounts to poor leadership once they have done everything in their power. If the Bishop supports this Priest’s efforts to make everything modern and falsely happy and unfulfilling for those not wishing to be part of a cult of personality, the man is free to move on.
The death of tradition will be the death of the visible Church in America.
The Mass should be lived in the world, the world should not be lived/expressed in the Mass. Most of these issues come down to people wanting to make everything worldly and then to slap a “Catholic” label on it.
Not only is that insulting to the history of the faith, and really tests the boundaries of encyclicals like Ecclessia de Eucharistia, it has a generational effect.
Of particular interest is #48 onwards, but, of course, a full reading would not hurt anyone:
vatican.va/holy_father/special_features/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_20030417_ecclesia_eucharistia_en.html
Perhaps the priest should be presented with the wisdom and advice of BPJPII for consideration.
C
Castello
Guest
Seems others have asked the same questions I had…
What IS a “liturgist”? We have a pastor and an associate pastor, deacons, installed lectors and installed acolytes (men in formation to be Deacons and Priests), Altar Servers (including Masters of Ceremonies) we have a paid music director, cantors, organists and pianists, a choir, lay readers and lay EMHCs, a DRE and a youth minister - I have never ever seen or heard of a “liturgist” outside of these forums.
Second, if you are elected to the Parish Counsel, were you not part of the group who chose the new hymnal? The Gather is not the best, but, it does have some good hymns in there.
If you are not attending Mass at your parish, it seems the right thing to do would be to resign from the Parish Council and to step down as a lay reader, then to volunteer to lead at the parish you attend.
As someone else said, if there are violations of the GIRM taking place, then, notify your Bishop.
What IS a “liturgist”? We have a pastor and an associate pastor, deacons, installed lectors and installed acolytes (men in formation to be Deacons and Priests), Altar Servers (including Masters of Ceremonies) we have a paid music director, cantors, organists and pianists, a choir, lay readers and lay EMHCs, a DRE and a youth minister - I have never ever seen or heard of a “liturgist” outside of these forums.
Second, if you are elected to the Parish Counsel, were you not part of the group who chose the new hymnal? The Gather is not the best, but, it does have some good hymns in there.
If you are not attending Mass at your parish, it seems the right thing to do would be to resign from the Parish Council and to step down as a lay reader, then to volunteer to lead at the parish you attend.
As someone else said, if there are violations of the GIRM taking place, then, notify your Bishop.
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Jegudiel
Guest
What are installed lectors and installed acolytes? You mean instituted lectors and acolytes?
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Castello
Guest
No, I mean installed lectors, etc.
Canon 230 §1. Lay men who possess the age and qualifications by decree of the conference of bishops can be** installed **on a stable basis in the ministries of lector and acolyte in accord with the prescribed liturgical rite; the conferral of these ministries, however, does not confer on these lay men a right to obtain support or remuneration from the Church.
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graceandglory
Guest
I don’t have any words of encouragement, but I have been through the same thing. I used to feel angry and depressed at my local parish. I don’t know what it was. It was like a spiritual heaviness. I couldn’t go there without sinning in my heart. I switched parishes, and that doesn’t happen anymore. I dread going back to the local parish though.
I left the church at 20 and didn’t come back until about 40. When I returned to my home parish, where I was youth group leader, folk group member, and graduate, I learned that I was raised in a very progressive parish, and probably wouldn’t have ever left had I been in a more orthodox parish. I would love to be one of those lifer parishioners at my home parish, but it’s just not Home.
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friarpark
Guest
The hymnal was chosen by our Prayer and Worship committee. It was never brought to the Council. I was quite shocked and surprised when I heard the decision. They were already ordered and paid for by the time I heard about it. I have considered resigning. As stated earlier, I took my family to the other parish so my boys in particular could experience the Mass without distraction. I went to my home parish this morning so I could support it, I also will be going to Daily Mass there on my days off this week. I am trying to change the culture of the parish from within, and feel that direct confrontation with my pastor will not get results. Others have tried that approach without success. Part of the problem is the culture of the diocese itself. I have read one book that lists it as one of the 6 biggest dissenting dioceses in the country–the book was written about the 70’s and 80’s but it seems like it hasn’t changed much. This generation of priests seem to have not been formed well–I know that is a generalization that I probably should not make, but it is what I observe. I know I am a sinful person and have faults, etc., but I was brought up to expect more of our priests. I wish I had more of St. Francis in me. Perhaps I should not have started this thread. I was just looking for some support.
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friarpark
Guest
Our stories match fairly well. Perhaps this is the route I will eventually take, but I am not ready to give up just yet. The people here deserve the best The Church can give them. Perhaps the next generation of priests will give them just that. I just hope I am still alive to see it.
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mlz
Guest
I understand your frustration but you must do what Jesus would have you do and not insist on “being right”. You could be as “right” as can be but it is what it is and rather than be upset and have anger on your heart it is better to with humility move where God is moving you. Perhaps He has His reasons…trust Him, show charity and love to your bothers and sister in your former parish, pray for them and move on looking for His lead in what He has for you. (I know, “easier said than done” but I’m afraid it’s the best option for you)
With love in Him,
mlz
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Jegudiel
Guest
I got up early this morning, showered, had a cup of coffee but just couldn’t make it out the door to get to Mass. It just didn’t feel right. So I went out to have breakfast and play golf instead. I went to Mass tonight and I am so happy that I did.
First, my parish seems far quieter at night then early in the morning (NOT at the family Mass.) Those that were talking were actually whispering! In the morning my parish sounds like a middle school pep rally. There is an actual din. The difference is there are 2-3 boorish people who talk very loudly and trigger everyone else to talk loudly too.
The visiting priest made a huge difference too as did the excellent cantor. The first reading really resonated with me:
Isaiah 43:18-19, 21-22, 24b-25
*Thus says the LORD:
Remember not the events of the past,
the things of long ago consider not;
see, I am doing something new!
Now it springs forth, do you not perceive it?
In the desert I make a way,
in the wasteland, rivers…
*
It’s been a very long time since I have gotten upset because someone was not following the rubrics of the Mass. Now I struggle with people who personally impact my worship. People who lack common courtesy. People my pastor will never reign-in. An on-going struggle but I’m not leaving. My pastor will be replaced soon enough.
First, my parish seems far quieter at night then early in the morning (NOT at the family Mass.) Those that were talking were actually whispering! In the morning my parish sounds like a middle school pep rally. There is an actual din. The difference is there are 2-3 boorish people who talk very loudly and trigger everyone else to talk loudly too.
The visiting priest made a huge difference too as did the excellent cantor. The first reading really resonated with me:
Isaiah 43:18-19, 21-22, 24b-25
*Thus says the LORD:
Remember not the events of the past,
the things of long ago consider not;
see, I am doing something new!
Now it springs forth, do you not perceive it?
In the desert I make a way,
in the wasteland, rivers…
*
It’s been a very long time since I have gotten upset because someone was not following the rubrics of the Mass. Now I struggle with people who personally impact my worship. People who lack common courtesy. People my pastor will never reign-in. An on-going struggle but I’m not leaving. My pastor will be replaced soon enough.
J
Jegudiel
Guest
Hmmm… Installed? I don’t think so.
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Mrs_Sally
Guest
So glad you found the a differenet Mass will work for you. Masses often have “personalities” even when they are not designated as such. We also attend Sunday evening Mass at our parish - for different reasons – and it is a nice way to get prepared for the week ahead.
It does sound that the issues you have are not with the way Mass itself is conducted, but with your fellow parishioners. I know you say the priest will not take the action you’d like, but as a member of the parish council, you should have the auithority to take some steps. For example, putting an article in the bulletin about the need to be respectful of the presence of Christ in the tabernacle. You can find some excellent examples online that it would be simple to get permission to rerun in your parish. Since Lent is starting this week, perhaps a series? Here at Catholic Answers would be a great place to find articles for the bulletin or pamphlets to give out.
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Castello
Guest
Having sat in the pew while the installation took place, and knowing this word is used throughout the Church’s documents (including the Canon I posted above), yes, I know so.
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Elisabeth51
Guest
Slow change is sometimes the only way to do it, that and knowing the GIRM and other church documents, both my parish organist and I have a set printed and highlighted for use when someone comes up with an idea that would be wrong, we simply hand them the appropriate page and smile, ready to explain if they have any questions. Some people still won’t listen—they will “but it’s Vatican 2” you to death, although you have in your hand the documents from Vatican 2 that support what you are saying. If you know the Church documents and can document where what is being done is wrong, that is very helpful. And, sometimes you really just have to go slowly. We have at our parish.
Start with the GIRM, if you haven’t read it already, and read through the other documents on the liturgy. Since I’ve gone through and read them all and marked certain things, I am much better able to understand and to gently correct.
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Allegra
Guest
Isn’t it funny how that happens? I usually detest cantoring for Saturday Mass. I’ve always found that the usual Saturday congregation seems like they’re being held there against their will. They don’t say the responses. They don’t show normal posture associated with listening. They NEVER sing! (Which makes the cantor feel like he or she is singing a concert instead of a Mass.) One might see a small handful actually open the hymnal or missal and follow along. Sometimes even the priest seems indifferent, like he’s in a hurry. He often gives a shorter homily than he does for the Sunday Mass and usually tells me not to sing the Gloria in order to save time. In short, it just doesn’t have that reverent “churchy” feeling. However, this week I was scheduled to cantor on a Saturday and I was pleasantly surprised at the change of attitude. Maybe it was due to the nice weather. Maybe last week’s mission lit a holy fire under some butts. Maybe they were in good spirits after attending the Mardi Gras parade. I don’t know. But they were following along, they were singing, and some of them even managed a smile during the Sign of Peace! Will it last? Who knows! But I hope so!
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mark_a
Guest
Congrats to you for raising a son to know the difference!!
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friarpark
Guest
Thank you. It’s one of the few things I seem to have done right.
J
Jegudiel
Guest
I don’t care for how painfully utilitarian the Masses are at my parish. I don’t care for the obvious desire to keep them as short as possible when there is no need to do so. I don’t care for the loud chatter. I (and many others) have talked to my pastor about these matters and the boorish behavior of some. He’s not interested. I suggested such an ad in the bulletin after Archbishop Gomez wrote a beautiful one in his archdiocese’s newspaper. My pastor had no interest. That experience told me that he actually likes what’s going on.
Last night was a very special experience for me. Many students were out of town due to the holiday. At the same time, many visitors were present. The celebrant was a nice surprise. It showed me in a concrete way how much better the experience of attending Mass can be at my own parish if my pastor would only get more involved.
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